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Thought on brown belts promoting students
6 year(s) ago • 45933 views • 135 replies
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Not trying to step on toes, just starting conversation. I've seen some members here who need votes for verification, and I've noticed that they have their promoting instructor listed as a brown belt. I personally am pretty entrenched in the idea that only black belts should promote, and only a second degree should promote to black belt. I'm not disparaging anyone's skill level or anything like that, I just feel like that is the way it should be. Agree? Disagree?
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I think there are two scenarios where this is perfectly fine and normal:
1) Brown belt is without a black belt coach / affiliation
2) Brown belt has gotten the blessing from a black belt to promote his own students
This is very common in areas with no black belts around. Even IBJJF support this in their own rulebook :)
I have had a few brown belt friends over the years who I told they should promote their students if they wanted to and if anyone would ever ask, they could just say it was done with my blessing. I don't want to be the guy who say "sure I'll help you, invite me there for a seminar and wear my patch". The instructor knows his students better than anyone, no matter his belt level.
1) Brown belt is without a black belt coach / affiliation
2) Brown belt has gotten the blessing from a black belt to promote his own students
This is very common in areas with no black belts around. Even IBJJF support this in their own rulebook :)
I have had a few brown belt friends over the years who I told they should promote their students if they wanted to and if anyone would ever ask, they could just say it was done with my blessing. I don't want to be the guy who say "sure I'll help you, invite me there for a seminar and wear my patch". The instructor knows his students better than anyone, no matter his belt level.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
JGBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I think there are two scenarios where this is perfectly fine and normal: 1) Brown belt is without a black belt coach / affiliation 2) Brown belt has gotten the blessing from a black belt to promote his own students This is very common in areas with no black belts around. Even IBJJF support this in their own rulebook :) I have had a few brown belt friends over the years who I told they should promote their students if they wanted to and if anyone would ever ask, they could just say it was done with my blessing. I don't want to be the guy who say 'sure I'll help you, invite me there for a seminar and wear my patch'. The instructor knows his students better than anyone, no matter his belt level.
Agreed. I was technically promoted to blue belt when my old coaches were actually purple belts I think, but it was under the "supervision", for lack of a better word, of Eddie Bravo. And, I've seen the same thing under Renzo and Daniel Gracie affiliates. There's a level of extended trust, when the person promoting actually, I've again lack for a better word, reports to a black belt.
There's a level of extended ownership and validation that comes with a promotion. My only personal bias, although I fully understand and respect it, is the whole promotion through unconnected seminar piece. One again, I get it, by I originally would want someone who is connected to me/my instructor/our affiliate. With that said, exceptions are always situational and just as valid if done right.
There's a level of extended ownership and validation that comes with a promotion. My only personal bias, although I fully understand and respect it, is the whole promotion through unconnected seminar piece. One again, I get it, by I originally would want someone who is connected to me/my instructor/our affiliate. With that said, exceptions are always situational and just as valid if done right.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Brownbelts promoting bluebelts + stripes has been a really common practice and still is AFAIK. (Given that they're the main instructor of said student and no black belt head coach available). I've also went by that principle.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
MBrown beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
That a good Brownbelt can promote people to bluebelt is absolutely ok in my perspective and I think is common under the circumstances Christian named.
But I haven’t ever heard that Brownbelts can promote people to Brownbelt for example.
But I haven’t ever heard that Brownbelts can promote people to Brownbelt for example.
DCBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
As it was explained to me:
You are able to promote to 2 ranks below you. Which makes sense because you require 2 degrees on a black belt to promote a black belt. Commonly accepted way in New Zealand but that also makes sense due to the relativity low number of black belts in NZ.
So it should look something like this:
Blues - can't promote without permission
Purples - tabs on white belts
Browns - blue belts
Blacks - purple belts
Black 1st degree - brown belts
Black belt 2nd degree - black belts
As stated before by others, its common place to get the blessing of a higher belt to promote your student if you don't hold the required rank yourself.
As far as how this relates to your initial question - I disagree - I think this system works well.
My listed coach is a brown belt whom had the permission from John Will, 6th degree black belt, to award me my purple belt. As far as I know, excluding stripes, John Will is made aware of every belt promotion within the affiliation in NZ. They are usually presented by him at a seminar after he assesses you if your coach isn't a black belt.
Perfect system? Maybe not but hey there are some dangerous mofos on the mats around NZ, inside and outside the Will-Machado affiliation.
You are able to promote to 2 ranks below you. Which makes sense because you require 2 degrees on a black belt to promote a black belt. Commonly accepted way in New Zealand but that also makes sense due to the relativity low number of black belts in NZ.
So it should look something like this:
Blues - can't promote without permission
Purples - tabs on white belts
Browns - blue belts
Blacks - purple belts
Black 1st degree - brown belts
Black belt 2nd degree - black belts
As stated before by others, its common place to get the blessing of a higher belt to promote your student if you don't hold the required rank yourself.
As far as how this relates to your initial question - I disagree - I think this system works well.
My listed coach is a brown belt whom had the permission from John Will, 6th degree black belt, to award me my purple belt. As far as I know, excluding stripes, John Will is made aware of every belt promotion within the affiliation in NZ. They are usually presented by him at a seminar after he assesses you if your coach isn't a black belt.
Perfect system? Maybe not but hey there are some dangerous mofos on the mats around NZ, inside and outside the Will-Machado affiliation.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
JMBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
You are able to promote to 2 ranks below you. Which makes sense because you require 2 degrees on a black belt to promote a black belt. So it should look something like this: Blues - can't promote without permission. Purples - tabs on white belts. Browns - blue belts. Blacks - purple belts. Black 1st degree - brown belts. Black belt 2nd degree - black belts
Yes.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
JMBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Well, now I'm not so sure... I like the 2 below rule. But, who am I to disagree with the ibjjf?...
TPBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Black 1st degree - brown belts
Blacks should always be able to promote to all color belts, including brown. Not everybody even follows a BB degree program to get those in time.
SABlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
In the area where I am from we haven't always had black belts to promote people. In my opinion like others have said it's okey for brown belts to promote people. I also believe that they can promote someone up to a purple belt and that is the practice that has been followed here. Haven't really seen any big problems with that so far, at least not problems that aren't in also in other places, like early promotions or late promotions. It is so subjective where the person stands, regardless who is promoting.
![Slideyfoot [jun]](userimg/5e25cf311adfd.jpg){kind=small}
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I'm a brown belt, I promote students to blue with my instructor Kev Capel's permission (he's a Roger Gracie black belt). Higher than that, I only do with Kev present, he comes down regularly for seminars.
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I'm a brown belt, I promote students to blue with my instructor Kev Capel's permission (he's a Roger Gracie black belt). Higher than that, I only do with Kev present, he comes down regularly for seminars.
That's how I did it as a brown also. I always got the sign off from my coach, even on stripes, just to keep it legal. I never promoted as a purple, not even stripes. I feel like as a purple, I was still figuring Jiu Jitsu out, I wasn't in a place, at least according to my own analysis, to judge anyone on their Jiu Jitsu yet.
DCBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
IBJJF disagree https://ibjjf.com/wp-cont[...]EN_vs2.pdf
Well there you go, I stand corrected (officially).
But who likes the IBJJF anyway
But who likes the IBJJF anyway
SCBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
well from aspect. I was ok'd to promote people. but out of respect for my coach, i leave that up to him unless he tell me to since its his gym. BUT as a purple and brown belt and even Black belt now, i am always taken with im to seminars and promotions to other gyms in the association to roll and evaluate the students. but as he told me and the reason it took him so long to promote me to black belt is that he didnt want it to seem that he was promoting me because we are friends but that I really earned that belt and anyone that knows or trained with me can attest to that..
DCBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Blacks should always be able to promote to all color belts, including brown. Not everybody even follows a BB degree program to get those in time.
As far as I'm aware every black belt degree awarded in NZ (within the affiliation) is again awarded by John Will and I don't believe he goes by the time intervals put in place by the IBJJF. Geoff had his first degree after 5 years I think... Looks like he then had 2 degrees at the same time...
https://beltchecker.com/p[...]hp?id=8322
John has had every promotion since starting from Rigan Machado, again someone I don't believe buys into the IBJJF that much.
So we don't follow the time thing that much and I don't think any promotions have ever been turned down by John (people putting forward one of their students) but... Out of respect he's kept in the loop. I plan on doing the same with my students even though it turns out I can promote to blue no questions asked.
I run almost all the tabs I give out through my coach but I'm running a very new gym and his experience in that extremely helpful.
https://beltchecker.com/p[...]hp?id=8322
John has had every promotion since starting from Rigan Machado, again someone I don't believe buys into the IBJJF that much.
So we don't follow the time thing that much and I don't think any promotions have ever been turned down by John (people putting forward one of their students) but... Out of respect he's kept in the loop. I plan on doing the same with my students even though it turns out I can promote to blue no questions asked.
I run almost all the tabs I give out through my coach but I'm running a very new gym and his experience in that extremely helpful.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
SCBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
As far as I'm aware every black belt degree awarded in NZ (within the affiliation) is again awarded by John Will and I don't believe he goes by the time intervals put in place by the IBJJF. Geoff had his first degree after 5 years I think... Looks like he then had 2 degrees at the same time... https://beltchecker.com/p[...]hp?id=8322 John has had every promotion since starting from Rigan Machado, again someone I don't believe buys into the IBJJF that much. So we don't follow the time thing that much and I don't think any promotions have ever been turned down by John (people putting forward one of their students) but... Out of respect he's kept in the loop. I plan on doing the same with my students even though it turns out I can promote to blue no questions asked. I run almost all the tabs I give out through my coach but I'm running a very new gym and his experience in that extremely helpful.
Its not a end all be all regulations on the belt promtions. it more of a basis that you alot of people can go by to make it easier over all. I know even TLI doesnt follow the time frames at all. but they honestly are trained to surpass that time frame of 2-3 year per belt. and some times he holds his people back just for accolades.
I look at the dudes timing and it seems sound. the stripes after black belt from what i notices sometimes are screwed up Ive seen and even had to remind Robson about some of his own black belts promotions and some didnt get their first or second stripe on time and had to give them to them all at once or even early since he wouldn't see them for another year or so.
I look at the dudes timing and it seems sound. the stripes after black belt from what i notices sometimes are screwed up Ive seen and even had to remind Robson about some of his own black belts promotions and some didnt get their first or second stripe on time and had to give them to them all at once or even early since he wouldn't see them for another year or so.
JGBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I think there are two scenarios where this is perfectly fine and normal: 1) Brown belt is without a black belt coach / affiliation 2) Brown belt has gotten the blessing from a black belt to promote his own students This is very common in areas with no black belts around. Even IBJJF support this in their own rulebook :) I have had a few brown belt friends over the years who I told they should promote their students if they wanted to and if anyone would ever ask, they could just say it was done with my blessing. I don't want to be the guy who say 'sure I'll help you, invite me there for a seminar and wear my patch'. The instructor knows his students better than anyone, no matter his belt level.
Agreed. I was technically promoted to blue belt when my old coaches were actually purple belts I think, but it was under the "supervision", for lack of a better word, of Eddie Bravo. And, I've seen the same thing under Renzo and Daniel Gracie affiliates. There's a level of extended trust, when the person promoting actually, I've again lack for a better word, reports to a black belt.
There's a level of extended ownership and validation that comes with a promotion. My only personal bias, although I fully understand and respect it, is the whole promotion through unconnected seminar piece. One again, I get it, by I originally would want someone who is connected to me/my instructor/our affiliate. With that said, exceptions are always situational and just as valid if done right.
There's a level of extended ownership and validation that comes with a promotion. My only personal bias, although I fully understand and respect it, is the whole promotion through unconnected seminar piece. One again, I get it, by I originally would want someone who is connected to me/my instructor/our affiliate. With that said, exceptions are always situational and just as valid if done right.
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I've promoted and striped blues. But nothing above. It was common practice at Brasa. Continued to do so after Brasa. I won't promote to purple though... it doesn't feel right. And I think that black belts can promote up to brown belt, and even stripe them, but not promote to black. One of our local, fresh black belts has promoted people brown belt and nobody has had any negative to say about that. Then again... said black belt is good friends with Demian Maia... :D
Edited 6 year(s) ago
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I've promoted and striped blues. But nothing above. It was common practice at Brasa. Continued to do so after Brasa. I won't promote to purple though... it doesn't feel right. And I think that black belts can promote up to brown belt, and even stripe them, but not promote to black. One of our local, fresh black belts has promoted people brown belt and nobody has had any negative to say about that. Then again... said black belt is good friends with Demian Maia... :D
AKPurple beltVerified
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
and on the other side of the coin you have Rickson Gracie trying to reject his Red Belt . . . https://www.youtube.com/w[...]VEoA_tj8wA
The original self promoters keeping the hierarchy alive :D
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
So when I self promote to 12th degree gold belt, how many community votes will I need? Having a custom belt made, so I'll let you all know when I decide that the Brazilian priesthood no longer has any say over my rank. Is there any follow up info on that guy? He's like a BJJ Tiger King.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I've had nothing but a positive experience with the "hierarchy". Only negative was one time with Rorion. He acted as if we inconvenienced him one time. He did realize it and explained after. Everyone else has been amazing.
VABlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I've promoted couple of people to blue and one person to purple as a brown belt, all had been training with me or under me for awhile when I was teaching in the north of Iceland. There are a couple of black belts in the south for bigger promotions and Gunnar Nelson handles the black belt promotions, he's promoted about half of the Icelandic black belts
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I make it a point not to promote anybody to their next belt, regardless of the rank, unless a black belt is present. I'm in kind of a unique position as we're completely unaffiliated and unattached, and therefore "strange" or even "scary" to people with more traditional viewpoints. Besides, when folks are promoted to their next belt rank via a legit black belt, I feel like it makes the rank more special for them.
BWBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I make it a point not to promote anybody to their next belt, regardless of the rank, unless a black belt is present. I'm in kind of a unique position as we're completely unaffiliated and unattached, and therefore 'strange' or even 'scary' to people with more traditional viewpoints. Besides, when folks are promoted to their next belt rank via a legit black belt, I feel like it makes the rank more special for them.
Out of curiousity, if you're completely unaffiliated, how do you arrange for black belts to be there for the promotions?
BVBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
When i started teaching i was a blue belt and there were like 2 black belts in the whole of the Netherlands. Competition was very detrimental in promoting. We made sure that the promotions were done by people with at least one rank above the rank you would be promoted at.
Nowadays we have a lot of black belts around and even some 2nd degree that can promote up to black belt by Ibjjf rulings. There are many more practisioners now and not everybody is into competition, so we promotions are based more on overall level and attendence.
I guess thats the process of going from a small community to a larger one with more resources.
Nowadays we have a lot of black belts around and even some 2nd degree that can promote up to black belt by Ibjjf rulings. There are many more practisioners now and not everybody is into competition, so we promotions are based more on overall level and attendence.
I guess thats the process of going from a small community to a larger one with more resources.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Out of curiousity, if you're completely unaffiliated, how do you arrange for black belts to be there for the promotions?
Well, we don't just have random black belts who are willing to do promotions for us. Rather, we have a very good friend of the gym; someone who believes in our mission and is willing to make a 12-hour trip down to promote folks at our school. He's an extremely valuable resource to us and we're definitely not going to be looking for someone else to rank us up, but at the same time there's no reason to affiliate with the guys at the top of this particular pyramid (Joe Moreira Association). Just seems like a waste of money an space on my gi for whatever patches I want to put on there lol.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Well... essentially it's just a game we decide to play. And like all games - to take them too seriously, while everyone's free to do that, it's still a bit silly... Or you could also say "self-limiting".
