Well... essentially it's just a game we decide to play. And like all games - to take them too seriously, while everyone's free to do that, it's still a bit silly... Or you could also say 'self-limiting'.

How dare you make sense.

Well... essentially it's just a game we decide to play. And like all games - to take them too seriously, while everyone's free to do that, it's still a bit silly... Or you could also say 'self-limiting'.

IBJJF disagree https://ibjjf.com/wp-cont[...]EN_vs2.pdf

Well you can apply that to most things though, they hold as much meaning as we give to them. Job titles are the best example, the amount of power they hold is determined by us. The role of the 'president' has little value if we just decide to stop participating in the 'game'. In so offended right now

Again yes and no - a pure game can be an activity that can be done from pure internal drive, for the activity itself, yet is not directly connected to (can be even detrimental to) survival values. And that's why for people who think BJJ is more than a game - e.g. a hierarchy holding social status, knowledgebase for 'truisms' in regards to unarmed combat etc etc... to them are also belts way more serious :) Organised society (and it's evolution in time) has very much evolved under survival pressures. Games and art much less so.

That a good Brownbelt can promote people to bluebelt is absolutely ok in my perspective and I think is common under the circumstances Christian named. But I haven’t ever heard that Brownbelts can promote people to Brownbelt for example.

That's how I did it as a brown. I always got the sign off from my coach, even on stripes, just to keep it legal. I never promoted as a purple, not even stripes. I feel like as a purple, I was still figuring Jiu Jitsu out, I wasn't in a place, at least according to my own analysis, to judge anyone on their Jiu Jitsu yet.

The original self promoters keeping the hierarchy alive :D

You mean it's not like this in every academy? Lol

My point was—cheek in tongue—that the group who originally promoted themselves to black belts keep coming up with new belts they can promote each other to ;)

The way it typically works is that you can only promote as far as the rank below you. So brown can promote to purple, and purple to blue.

I don't agree with that at all. Maybe in very rare circumstances would a brown be able to promote to blue, but other than that, I don't think a purple belt, no offense to purple belts, has even begun to understand their own Jiu Jitsu, let alone decide when someone should be promoted. Old school me just thinks a black belt needs to do promotions, and a black belt needs two degrees to promote to black. If a black belt wants to 'OK' a promotion, they need to sign the certificate and be the promotor of record. Again, that's my personal opinion. There are all kinds of extenuating circumstances, but that's my line in the sand personally.

I don't agree with that at all. Maybe in very rare circumstances would a brown be able to promote to blue, but other than that, I don't think a purple belt, no offense to purple belts, has even begun to understand their own Jiu Jitsu, let alone decide when someone should be promoted. Old school me just thinks a black belt needs to do promotions, and a black belt needs two degrees to promote to black. If a black belt wants to 'OK' a promotion, they need to sign the certificate and be the promotor of record. Again, that's my personal opinion. There are all kinds of extenuating circumstances, but that's my line in the sand personally.

If it wasn't for coronavirus then i would have reasonably expected to get my blue belt next month. I train under a purple belt who has a bunch of black belts in other things (e.g. Judo) and has trained martial arts his whole life. I do understand the point you made, but i think you have to weigh it against the fact that there aren't as many black belts outside America. Our setup is not unusual, my coach is affiliated to a black belt. Of course i could go roll with him for a session and have him give me the blue belt, but it seems a bit silly really given we've never met and I don't think one roll defines my ability. I have an 80% win rate after 31 white belt / beginner NoGi matches, i think a purple belt is sufficiently qualified to assess that i'm ready for the next level. I don't dispute your point that the purple will change a lot before they become a black belt.

I don't agree with that at all. Maybe in very rare circumstances would a brown be able to promote to blue, but other than that, I don't think a purple belt, no offense to purple belts, has even begun to understand their own Jiu Jitsu, let alone decide when someone should be promoted. Old school me just thinks a black belt needs to do promotions, and a black belt needs two degrees to promote to black. If a black belt wants to 'OK' a promotion, they need to sign the certificate and be the promotor of record. Again, that's my personal opinion. There are all kinds of extenuating circumstances, but that's my line in the sand personally.

A question for you, what would you say makes a second degree black belt more qualified to promote a black belt rather than maybe a 6 month black belt? In your words, why trust him?

A question for you, what would you say makes a second degree black belt more qualified to promote a black belt rather than maybe a 6 month black belt? In your words, why trust him?

This is the slippery slope. Again, just my opinion.

But what's the alternative? If you say every club has to have a black belt then that's going to lead to a mass of speedy promotions, a slippery slope of its own. If I get promoted by an affiliate black belt after a 5 minute roll with them, then that's frankly easier to hide blind spots than someone who trains with me 5 hours a week. Seems like the least worst option to me.

But what's the alternative? If you say every club has to have a black belt then that's going to lead to a mass of speedy promotions, a slippery slope of its own. If I get promoted by an affiliate black belt after a 5 minute roll with them, then that's frankly easier to hide blind spots than someone who trains with me 5 hours a week. Seems like the least worst option to me.

I never said every club has to have a black belt. I also never said that black belts should promote after a handshake and a 5min roll. Since there is no governing body, there are all kinds of variances in promotions. I've seen black belts promoted by black belts with less than 2 degrees, brown and purple belts doing promotions, online promotions, etc. I drew my personal line in the sand at what I thought was right and that's what I stick to. I have never and will never question someone else's belt or promotion. If you're not my student, then that's your business. I personally have never promoted anyone while I was a purple or brown belt, and I was promoted to black belt by a 2nd degree instructor. I also never paid a dime for a belt test or promotion, and I have never taken a dime for a test or promotion either, but that's a seperated can of worms. I would not allow any of my colored belts to promote a student. That's how I run my house. If they go elsewhere, then they can do as they please. The only belts I have any say over are the ones that I wear and the ones I award to my students. Is it a perfect system? Probably not. Is it a system that I think is right? Yes. I can give my opinion on one off cases individually, but I have my personal beliefs on promotions, and that's what I stick to.

I know you didn't say those things, I'm just asking what alternative there is for clubs that don't have a resident black belt?

In the scenario you prefer, only the recommendation of the purple belt matters. In the scenario that is more conventional, Both the recommendation of the purple belt, AND the assessment of the promoting black belt is a requirement for the promotion to occur. Clearly the second is a more rigorous process than the first, and still allows for the satisfice of a remote academy with no local black belt. A second year medical school student often has 6 years or more of post high school university schooling, but is not a doctor, has two more years of clinical rotation to go before they are a doctor, and often must then complete a 3 year or longer residency before they have full practicing privileges of a medical doctor from most institutions. A purple belt likewise is at the halfway point of having the skillset and judgement associated with being able to make promotion decisions without a supervising professor. Of course all such traditions and protocols are subject to change.

The first two stripes I got, a black belt did come and roll with me. I thought that would be the same going forward, but got my second stripes without it. I can't fault your logic, other than to say that something has gone seriously wrong if the purple belt thinks you're ready for promotion and the black belt doesn't, the whole point of being an affiliate is that they should be in regular contact and discussing their students progress, if the right questions were asked then it really shouldn't happen that the black belt finds a problem that means they need to veto the promotion. I also agree with Bren that white to blue shouldn't be as bigger deal as blue to purple or purple to brown.