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It's time to talk about shrimping
6 year(s) ago • 31789 views • 143 replies
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Also I think you might prefer a more 10th planet oriented style where some dude might shrimp you straight into the sorcerer and hold you there until you admit that shrimping works. Some 10th planet "sorta affiliated" places are like catch wrestlers trying to get promoted while being more mma style...while others are going to be full eddie bravo. There is a big difference.
One other thing to think about is not all escapes or reversals are equal. Several your putting yourself at greater risk of then having to fight off armbars, triangles, omoplatatas, etc in the transitions or your elbow placement may be in greater danger of being under/overhooks and attacked and all sorts of things. So just because you can use a certain escape or reversal most of the time you also need to be able to realize against higher level opponents what risk am i taking when using it and what comes after I use it and how am i going to handle all those next options in the possible scenarios that might occur and it just so happens that shrimping reduces all those risks greatly.
There are times where shrimping may not be the best solution to the problem your facing...but I promise you when your tired/exhausted and have hardly nothing left that shrimping might save you in a way that your other techniques just couldn't because currently at that moment your running on fumes and don't have the energy or power to execute the other techniques you might prefer.
One other thing to think about is not all escapes or reversals are equal. Several your putting yourself at greater risk of then having to fight off armbars, triangles, omoplatatas, etc in the transitions or your elbow placement may be in greater danger of being under/overhooks and attacked and all sorts of things. So just because you can use a certain escape or reversal most of the time you also need to be able to realize against higher level opponents what risk am i taking when using it and what comes after I use it and how am i going to handle all those next options in the possible scenarios that might occur and it just so happens that shrimping reduces all those risks greatly.
There are times where shrimping may not be the best solution to the problem your facing...but I promise you when your tired/exhausted and have hardly nothing left that shrimping might save you in a way that your other techniques just couldn't because currently at that moment your running on fumes and don't have the energy or power to execute the other techniques you might prefer.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
And just one thing to all you Black Belts.
Us White Belts are like children...we will say the dumbest things. We will be stubborn and think we know it all even when we know nothing. We will continue to think this way in many aspects time and time again seeming to never learn the basic concept that Jon Snow never learned.
But we as white belts are suppose to look up to you and respect what you have to say. You have earned it...you have been through the journey of being humbled a million times over and sat through the lord of the rings journey listening to samwise gamgee constantly trying to sabotage your journey and eat your food every step of the way. Over 90% of the Black Belts on here are truly humble, and ever so patient to the stupid things that others say. Patience and Character are more the mark of a Black Belt then skill. It's more of a mental achievement then a physical one...being able to stand the test of time and impact who you are as a person and make you a better person.
Just ask yourself one question, would you treat your child in such a way that you would insult them and mock them instead of trying to be patient with them and try to help them understand even if it's impossible for them to understand at their current state of mind as it's just not developed enough to comprehend what you have to say. There is a way to be able to have a sense of humor even in the face of immature stubborn stupidity that your being faced with. And there is another way that will only cause them to lose all respect for you. It's one thing to just laugh something off or post a funny picture and then ignore it. It's another to actually choose to respond in kind or with immaturity.
It's up to you how you want to handle things but I would just hope that someone who has been humbled a million times would have acquired the patience to deal with a fool. Because if you haven't then maybe you still need be to humbled a bit more.
Us White Belts are like children...we will say the dumbest things. We will be stubborn and think we know it all even when we know nothing. We will continue to think this way in many aspects time and time again seeming to never learn the basic concept that Jon Snow never learned.
But we as white belts are suppose to look up to you and respect what you have to say. You have earned it...you have been through the journey of being humbled a million times over and sat through the lord of the rings journey listening to samwise gamgee constantly trying to sabotage your journey and eat your food every step of the way. Over 90% of the Black Belts on here are truly humble, and ever so patient to the stupid things that others say. Patience and Character are more the mark of a Black Belt then skill. It's more of a mental achievement then a physical one...being able to stand the test of time and impact who you are as a person and make you a better person.
Just ask yourself one question, would you treat your child in such a way that you would insult them and mock them instead of trying to be patient with them and try to help them understand even if it's impossible for them to understand at their current state of mind as it's just not developed enough to comprehend what you have to say. There is a way to be able to have a sense of humor even in the face of immature stubborn stupidity that your being faced with. And there is another way that will only cause them to lose all respect for you. It's one thing to just laugh something off or post a funny picture and then ignore it. It's another to actually choose to respond in kind or with immaturity.
It's up to you how you want to handle things but I would just hope that someone who has been humbled a million times would have acquired the patience to deal with a fool. Because if you haven't then maybe you still need be to humbled a bit more.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
DCBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Wrestlers have won high level BJJ tournaments with no specific BJJ training, I'm not aware that any BJJ guy has ever entered and won a high level wrestling tournament to do the same.
Rigan Machado entered every grappling competing he could when he moved to the USA... And never lost... Ever.
His brothers did the same but I don't think they were all as successful as him.
... And shrimping is essential I don't give a fuck what you say. Whether these black belts you know use them or not. I dare say they have they have refined it to the point of it being very small efficient movements.
In my club... You can't/won't shrimp then you can't do 1/2 the shit required to get past my white belt requirements... Or the attitude required to last in my club.
His brothers did the same but I don't think they were all as successful as him.
... And shrimping is essential I don't give a fuck what you say. Whether these black belts you know use them or not. I dare say they have they have refined it to the point of it being very small efficient movements.
In my club... You can't/won't shrimp then you can't do 1/2 the shit required to get past my white belt requirements... Or the attitude required to last in my club.
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Rigan Machado entered every grappling competing he could when he moved to the USA... And never lost... Ever. His brothers did the same but I don't think they were all as successful as him. ... And shrimping is essential I don't give a fuck what you say. Whether these black belts you know use them or not. I dare say they have they have refined it to the point of it being very small efficient movements. In my club... You can't/won't shrimp then you can't do 1/2 the shit required to get past my white belt requirements... Or the attitude required to last in my club.
Yea I personally hate all forced warms ups...that's an entire different topic...
It's one thing to say that it's stupid to have to shrimp everyday in practice for warmups...its an entire other thing to suggest that shrimping isn't needed in jiu jitsu as it is very useful for so many techniques.
I think his biggest frustration is most likely coming from being forced to do them every single day in some forced warm up routine at the start of class. That I can understand a little bit...as that's just a waste of everyone's time. I come to train jiu jitsu not workout. I can workout in my own time. Yes show a new person how to shrimp etc...but to force them to do it every single day down a mat is just stupid. It would be better to make them drill it with a partner in some positional scenario of mount escapes or 1/2 guard or whatever, Help them understand how useful it is with getting back your guard and setting up lockdown or getting underhooks and whatever else sure...but just telling someone to shrimp down a row back and forth is not really that useful and wastes energy and time...use it in specific training and it won't feel as much like a chore and maybe they will be forced to realize it's actual importance with real pressure on top of them in certain situations.
It's one thing to say that it's stupid to have to shrimp everyday in practice for warmups...its an entire other thing to suggest that shrimping isn't needed in jiu jitsu as it is very useful for so many techniques.
I think his biggest frustration is most likely coming from being forced to do them every single day in some forced warm up routine at the start of class. That I can understand a little bit...as that's just a waste of everyone's time. I come to train jiu jitsu not workout. I can workout in my own time. Yes show a new person how to shrimp etc...but to force them to do it every single day down a mat is just stupid. It would be better to make them drill it with a partner in some positional scenario of mount escapes or 1/2 guard or whatever, Help them understand how useful it is with getting back your guard and setting up lockdown or getting underhooks and whatever else sure...but just telling someone to shrimp down a row back and forth is not really that useful and wastes energy and time...use it in specific training and it won't feel as much like a chore and maybe they will be forced to realize it's actual importance with real pressure on top of them in certain situations.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Rigan Machado entered every grappling competing he could when he moved to the USA... And never lost... Ever. His brothers did the same but I don't think they were all as successful as him. ... And shrimping is essential I don't give a fuck what you say. Whether these black belts you know use them or not. I dare say they have they have refined it to the point of it being very small efficient movements. In my club... You can't/won't shrimp then you can't do 1/2 the shit required to get past my white belt requirements... Or the attitude required to last in my club.
I wouldn't be joining a club where belt requirements were based on some sort of kata. From the way some of you speak, you'd think I spend all my time getting pinned or submitted from bottom side control or mount since I don't shrimp. Yet 31 matches and never happened...
Thanks for the info about Rigan Machado, I didn't know about his wrestling but you're right and I'll go try to watch some of his matches later.
Thanks for the info about Rigan Machado, I didn't know about his wrestling but you're right and I'll go try to watch some of his matches later.
DCBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I hate Kata's... It's one of the reasons I ended up doing BJJ, I don't make my students do ANYTHING I'm not willing to do myself... I stand by what I said though... If you won't shrimp, don't come...if you can't shrimp I won't promote you.
Nice.
And.
Simple.
Nice.
And.
Simple.
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I hate Kata's... It's one of the reasons I ended up doing BJJ, I don't make my students do ANYTHING I'm not willing to do myself... I stand by what I said though... If you won't shrimp, don't come...if you can't shrimp I won't promote you. Nice. And. Simple.
Yea most Karate or Taekwondo places ended up being nothing but a choreographed dance routine...
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
If you're a guard player than i can see some utility, but as a side control escape it's basically saying D'Arce / Ninja / Guillotine me.
Shrimping as one option to escape side control (and other utilizations) since 1999 here. Definitely has its time and place.
The "if you do X, I'll just do Y" (eg. "if you shrimp to escape, I'll just d'arce choke you" ) logic doesn't really apply in real life when timing is involved. It's not chess, after all :)
The "if you do X, I'll just do Y" (eg. "if you shrimp to escape, I'll just d'arce choke you" ) logic doesn't really apply in real life when timing is involved. It's not chess, after all :)
Edited 6 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
And just one thing to all you Black Belts. Us White Belts are like children...we will say the dumbest things. We will be stubborn and think we know it all even when we know nothing. We will continue to think this way in many aspects time and time again seeming to never learn the basic concept that Jon Snow never learned. But we as white belts are suppose to look up to you and respect what you have to say. You have earned it...you have been through the journey of being humbled a million times over and sat through the lord of the rings journey listening to samwise gamgee constantly trying to sabotage your journey and eat your food every step of the way. Over 90% of the Black Belts on here are truly humble, and ever so patient to the stupid things that others say. Patience and Character are more the mark of a Black Belt then skill. It's more of a mental achievement then a physical one...being able to stand the test of time and impact who you are as a person and make you a better person. Just ask yourself one question, would you treat your child in such a way that you would insult them and mock them instead of trying to be patient with them and try to help them understand even if it's impossible for them to understand at their current state of mind as it's just not developed enough to comprehend what you have to say. There is a way to be able to have a sense of humor even in the face of immature stubborn stupidity that your being faced with. And there is another way that will only cause them to lose all respect for you. It's one thing to just laugh something off or post a funny picture and then ignore it. It's another to actually choose to respond in kind or with immaturity. It's up to you how you want to handle things but I would just hope that someone who has been humbled a million times would have acquired the patience to deal with a fool. Because if you haven't then maybe you still need be to humbled a bit more.
How you treat a child and how you treat a teenager are worlds apart. Most white belts behave like teens and not children. Children are innocent and curious not arrogant.
Teens are combative and tend to dismiss and ignore the experience of their elders because they think they know better or that we to old and don't know what we are talking about. That is just as insulting but seems perfectly acceptable. It's not that they are bad people they just lack experience. They are cynical and need to learn mostly through their own experiences (not saying it's a bad thing but needs to be acknowledged). All of us older folks were the same as teens I am sure. And on it goes...... Everyone is responsible for their own actions and responses. Anyone who trains consistently gets humbled regularly so you lost me on that point. I've read many of the posts and to be honest most black belts on here have been patient with the hubris displayed by some of the posters. Maybe the humility should go both ways and the onus not placed squarely on black belts only. We can all have constructive conversations on here without all the ego for sure. Just my 2 cents which isn't worth much. Anyway hope you all have a great Saturday.
Teens are combative and tend to dismiss and ignore the experience of their elders because they think they know better or that we to old and don't know what we are talking about. That is just as insulting but seems perfectly acceptable. It's not that they are bad people they just lack experience. They are cynical and need to learn mostly through their own experiences (not saying it's a bad thing but needs to be acknowledged). All of us older folks were the same as teens I am sure. And on it goes...... Everyone is responsible for their own actions and responses. Anyone who trains consistently gets humbled regularly so you lost me on that point. I've read many of the posts and to be honest most black belts on here have been patient with the hubris displayed by some of the posters. Maybe the humility should go both ways and the onus not placed squarely on black belts only. We can all have constructive conversations on here without all the ego for sure. Just my 2 cents which isn't worth much. Anyway hope you all have a great Saturday.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
How you treat a child and how you treat a teenager are worlds apart. Most white belts behave like teens and not children. Children are innocent and curious not arrogant. Teens are combative and tend to dismiss and ignore the experience of their elders because they think they know better or that we to old and don't know what we are talking about. That is just as insulting but seems perfectly acceptable. It's not that they are bad people they just lack experience. They are cynical and need to learn mostly through their own experiences (not saying it's a bad thing but needs to be acknowledged). All of us older folks were the same as teens I am sure. And on it goes...... Everyone is responsible for their own actions and responses. Anyone who trains consistently gets humbled regularly so you lost me on that point. I've read many of the posts and to be honest most black belts on here have been patient with the hubris displayed by some of the posters. Maybe the humility should go both ways and the onus not placed squarely on black belts only. We can all have constructive conversations on here without all the ego for sure. Just my 2 cents which isn't worth much. Anyway hope you all have a great Saturday.
Children or Teenagers the same applies to what I said.
And I mentioned Black Belt's because of ones post. Also because you guys are the leaders. Leaders lead by example. And constructive conversations are exactly what should be happening and most of the time that's exactly what it is. Again most people are beyond patient but "most" should not be the goal of representation. Your only as strong as your weakest links and perception is reality. If you want to allow the few that don't fit into the "most" category to be the perception that is also up to you. It's not my place but someone needs to say something some of the time or nothing changes and a single occurrence spreads like a cancer, People don't remember positive things the way they remember the negative. You guys should take care of your own though so they don't set a bad example. Anyone can be blind to truths around them. That is all. I am going to sleep.
And I mentioned Black Belt's because of ones post. Also because you guys are the leaders. Leaders lead by example. And constructive conversations are exactly what should be happening and most of the time that's exactly what it is. Again most people are beyond patient but "most" should not be the goal of representation. Your only as strong as your weakest links and perception is reality. If you want to allow the few that don't fit into the "most" category to be the perception that is also up to you. It's not my place but someone needs to say something some of the time or nothing changes and a single occurrence spreads like a cancer, People don't remember positive things the way they remember the negative. You guys should take care of your own though so they don't set a bad example. Anyone can be blind to truths around them. That is all. I am going to sleep.
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
How you treat a child and how you treat a teenager are worlds apart. Most white belts behave like teens and not children. Children are innocent and curious not arrogant. Teens are combative and tend to dismiss and ignore the experience of their elders because they think they know better or that we to old and don't know what we are talking about. That is just as insulting but seems perfectly acceptable. It's not that they are bad people they just lack experience. They are cynical and need to learn mostly through their own experiences (not saying it's a bad thing but needs to be acknowledged). All of us older folks were the same as teens I am sure. And on it goes...... Everyone is responsible for their own actions and responses. Anyone who trains consistently gets humbled regularly so you lost me on that point. I've read many of the posts and to be honest most black belts on here have been patient with the hubris displayed by some of the posters. Maybe the humility should go both ways and the onus not placed squarely on black belts only. We can all have constructive conversations on here without all the ego for sure. Just my 2 cents which isn't worth much. Anyway hope you all have a great Saturday.
Children or Teenagers the same applies to what I said.
And I mentioned Black Belt's because of ones post and their ego. Also because you guys are the leaders. Leaders lead by example. And constructive conversations are exactly what should be happening and most of the time that's exactly what it is. Again most people are beyond patient but "most" should not be the goal of representation. Your only as strong as your weakest links and perception is reality. If you want to allow the few that don't fit into the "most" category to be the perception that is also up to you. It's not my place but someone needs to say something some of the time or nothing changes and a single occurrence spreads like a cancer, People don't remember positive things the way they remember the negative. You guys should take care of your own though so they don't set a bad example. Anyone can be blind to truths around them. That is all. I am going to sleep.
And I mentioned Black Belt's because of ones post and their ego. Also because you guys are the leaders. Leaders lead by example. And constructive conversations are exactly what should be happening and most of the time that's exactly what it is. Again most people are beyond patient but "most" should not be the goal of representation. Your only as strong as your weakest links and perception is reality. If you want to allow the few that don't fit into the "most" category to be the perception that is also up to you. It's not my place but someone needs to say something some of the time or nothing changes and a single occurrence spreads like a cancer, People don't remember positive things the way they remember the negative. You guys should take care of your own though so they don't set a bad example. Anyone can be blind to truths around them. That is all. I am going to sleep.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I heard someone had a t-shirt about blackbelts...
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I hate Kata's... It's one of the reasons I ended up doing BJJ, I don't make my students do ANYTHING I'm not willing to do myself... I stand by what I said though... If you won't shrimp, don't come...if you can't shrimp I won't promote you. Nice. And. Simple.
Nice and simple would be "show me you can escape side control", why not specify an outcome rather than a technique?
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Shrimping as one option to escape side control (and other utilizations) since 1999 here. Definitely has its time and place. The 'if you do X, I'll just do Y' (eg. 'if you shrimp to escape, I'll just d'arce choke you' ) logic doesn't really apply in real life when timing is involved. It's not chess, after all :)
Do we agree this is correct shrimping technique as seen by the same old drilling in BJJ clubs worldwide?
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Do we agree this is correct shrimping technique as seen by the same old drilling in BJJ clubs worldwide?
It depends :)
There are no absolutes.
Many roads lead to Rome.
There are no absolutes.
Many roads lead to Rome.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Do we agree this is correct shrimping technique as seen by the same old drilling in BJJ clubs worldwide?
It's a bit hard to say it's "correct technique" from one still image, but given you mean framing on the opponent and moving your hips away in order to create space (to escape/recover/attack), then yes, I use that all the time.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
It's a bit hard to say it's 'correct technique' from one still image, but given you mean framing on the opponent and moving your hips away in order to create space (to escape/recover/attack), then yes, I use that all the time.
So i appreciate it's not chess and the same thing isn't going to happen every time, but assume the guy was in bottom side control, he does this movement - where are the top guys hands most likely to be such that he can't easily grab the bottom guys neck with at least one of them?
I'm not anti-framing, but i don't like how extended that top arm is and a lot of people would extent both arms that far.
I'm not anti-framing, but i don't like how extended that top arm is and a lot of people would extent both arms that far.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
It's a bit hard to say it's 'correct technique' from one still image, but given you mean framing on the opponent and moving your hips away in order to create space (to escape/recover/attack), then yes, I use that all the time.
Here's a black belt extending both arms that way
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
And just one thing to all you Black Belts. Us White Belts are like children...we will say the dumbest things. We will be stubborn and think we know it all even when we know nothing. We will continue to think this way in many aspects time and time again seeming to never learn the basic concept that Jon Snow never learned. But we as white belts are suppose to look up to you and respect what you have to say. You have earned it...you have been through the journey of being humbled a million times over and sat through the lord of the rings journey listening to samwise gamgee constantly trying to sabotage your journey and eat your food every step of the way. Over 90% of the Black Belts on here are truly humble, and ever so patient to the stupid things that others say. Patience and Character are more the mark of a Black Belt then skill. It's more of a mental achievement then a physical one...being able to stand the test of time and impact who you are as a person and make you a better person. Just ask yourself one question, would you treat your child in such a way that you would insult them and mock them instead of trying to be patient with them and try to help them understand even if it's impossible for them to understand at their current state of mind as it's just not developed enough to comprehend what you have to say. There is a way to be able to have a sense of humor even in the face of immature stubborn stupidity that your being faced with. And there is another way that will only cause them to lose all respect for you. It's one thing to just laugh something off or post a funny picture and then ignore it. It's another to actually choose to respond in kind or with immaturity. It's up to you how you want to handle things but I would just hope that someone who has been humbled a million times would have acquired the patience to deal with a fool. Because if you haven't then maybe you still need be to humbled a bit more.
I understand your point and I for one although a sarcastic prick try and be very patient as I actually believe there are no stupid questions just stupid answers.. That being said the people on this forum are adults NOT children and while we all share a common interest we are here for a diversion and to discuss topics that interest us..
Nobody here owes anybody anything and when someone who is what amounts to a beginner starts making blanket statements insisting they are correct and that those who have devoted more time to the endeavor and actually are well respected are wrong they should not have a thin skin.
As a teacher I am actually open to students telling me they think a technique is wrong as for the next hundred rolls my job is to show them the technique works until they beg me not to do it on them. If someone thinks that shrimping is not effective I suggest they go to their instructor and tell him so and ask that all the higher help show him why shrimping is necessary
Nobody here owes anybody anything and when someone who is what amounts to a beginner starts making blanket statements insisting they are correct and that those who have devoted more time to the endeavor and actually are well respected are wrong they should not have a thin skin.
As a teacher I am actually open to students telling me they think a technique is wrong as for the next hundred rolls my job is to show them the technique works until they beg me not to do it on them. If someone thinks that shrimping is not effective I suggest they go to their instructor and tell him so and ask that all the higher help show him why shrimping is necessary
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I understand your point and I for one although a sarcastic prick try and be very patient as I actually believe there are no stupid questions just stupid answers.. That being said the people on this forum are adults NOT children and while we all share a common interest we are here for a diversion and to discuss topics that interest us.. Nobody here owes anybody anything and when someone who is what amounts to a beginner starts making blanket statements insisting they are correct and that those who have devoted more time to the endeavor and actually are well respected are wrong they should not have a thin skin. As a teacher I am actually open to students telling me they think a technique is wrong as for the next hundred rolls my job is to show them the technique works until they beg me not to do it on them. If someone thinks that shrimping is not effective I suggest they go to their instructor and tell him so and ask that all the higher help show him why shrimping is necessary
I agree people should not be easily offended or have thin skin. Straight forward brutal honesty is good. I've never liked people sugar coating things in general or trying to be politically correct.
I just can't stand to see arrogance from someone who is suppose to be a leader. That's an entire other thing all together. It's one thing for a white belt to be arrogant. It's another for a Black Belt. Your just held to a higher standard in my opinion. That is all. But I agree completely with what you just said.
I just can't stand to see arrogance from someone who is suppose to be a leader. That's an entire other thing all together. It's one thing for a white belt to be arrogant. It's another for a Black Belt. Your just held to a higher standard in my opinion. That is all. But I agree completely with what you just said.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Shrimping as one option to escape side control (and other utilizations) since 1999 here. Definitely has its time and place. The 'if you do X, I'll just do Y' (eg. 'if you shrimp to escape, I'll just d'arce choke you' ) logic doesn't really apply in real life when timing is involved. It's not chess, after all :)
Do we agree this is correct shrimping technique as seen by the same old drilling in BJJ clubs worldwide?
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I understand your point and I for one although a sarcastic prick try and be very patient as I actually believe there are no stupid questions just stupid answers.. That being said the people on this forum are adults NOT children and while we all share a common interest we are here for a diversion and to discuss topics that interest us.. Nobody here owes anybody anything and when someone who is what amounts to a beginner starts making blanket statements insisting they are correct and that those who have devoted more time to the endeavor and actually are well respected are wrong they should not have a thin skin. As a teacher I am actually open to students telling me they think a technique is wrong as for the next hundred rolls my job is to show them the technique works until they beg me not to do it on them. If someone thinks that shrimping is not effective I suggest they go to their instructor and tell him so and ask that all the higher help show him why shrimping is necessary
Nowhere did I tell anyone that they are wrong, question anyones legitimacy, or say that there's zero utility to shrimping. I didn't use blanket statements either, I used phrases like "basically saying", "not a fan" and "poor mans". People started imposing words on me that weren't there.
One of the first things we learn in jiu jitsu is to keep our elbows in and protect the space under the armpit and above the hip. Yet at that same time, there's a wildly popular drill that encourages people to stick both their arms out at full length vs one body part, which makes me wonder where the opponents arms are supposed to be. Some black belts say that once you understand the rules, then you can break them and I get that. But I'd guess that most people just wouldn't actually shrimp like that in real sparring and just tolerate it as a warm up drill. The only place I've seen people doing it like that would be open guard where the top guy is looking to pass rather than attack the neck. But from bottom side control I'd just appreciate someone explaining how the neck is protected.
A lot of white belts don't think too hard about the risk of false positives, but I do. Primarily because I've experienced them in other sports where a certain set of techniques brings you early success and then stops working. Secondly, because I've seen plenty of blue belts quit or get disheartened because they unknowingly got taken down one path of jiu jitsu without understanding the choice they were making.
One of the first things we learn in jiu jitsu is to keep our elbows in and protect the space under the armpit and above the hip. Yet at that same time, there's a wildly popular drill that encourages people to stick both their arms out at full length vs one body part, which makes me wonder where the opponents arms are supposed to be. Some black belts say that once you understand the rules, then you can break them and I get that. But I'd guess that most people just wouldn't actually shrimp like that in real sparring and just tolerate it as a warm up drill. The only place I've seen people doing it like that would be open guard where the top guy is looking to pass rather than attack the neck. But from bottom side control I'd just appreciate someone explaining how the neck is protected.
A lot of white belts don't think too hard about the risk of false positives, but I do. Primarily because I've experienced them in other sports where a certain set of techniques brings you early success and then stops working. Secondly, because I've seen plenty of blue belts quit or get disheartened because they unknowingly got taken down one path of jiu jitsu without understanding the choice they were making.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
So i appreciate it's not chess and the same thing isn't going to happen every time, but assume the guy was in bottom side control, he does this movement - where are the top guys hands most likely to be such that he can't easily grab the bottom guys neck with at least one of them? I'm not anti-framing, but i don't like how extended that top arm is and a lot of people would extent both arms that far.
It's simply impossible to set up this theoretical x -> y -> z scenario. It will never apply in real life. Hands could be in literally 1000 variations of places with 1000 variations of situational timing with 1000 variations of weight placement.
It's like asking a goal keeper "when someone shoot the ball to the left, why don't you just extend your arms to your right and catch the ball every single time?". Or the classical martial arts way of "you punch like this, I block like this and counterpunch like this".
What we CAN conclude for sure, based on data and experience, is that shrimping doesn't get you choked every time.
It's like asking a goal keeper "when someone shoot the ball to the left, why don't you just extend your arms to your right and catch the ball every single time?". Or the classical martial arts way of "you punch like this, I block like this and counterpunch like this".
What we CAN conclude for sure, based on data and experience, is that shrimping doesn't get you choked every time.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
One of the first things we learn in jiu jitsu is to keep our elbows in and protect the space under the armpit and above the hip. Yet at that same time, there's a wildly popular drill that encourages people to stick both their arms out at full length vs one body part
Nothing wrong with framing by extending your arms, you're gonna need to do that often. In a shrimping situation (let's say for escaping side control, mount, knee on belly), you can extend your arms while still keeping your elbows close (enough) to your body.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
It's simply impossible to set up this theoretical x -> y -> z scenario. It will never apply in real life. Hands could be in literally 1000 variations of places with 1000 variations of situational timing with 1000 variations of weight placement. It's like asking a goal keeper 'when someone shoot the ball to the left, why don't you just extend your arms to your right and catch the ball every single time?'. Or the classical martial arts way of 'you punch like this, I block like this and counterpunch like this'. What we CAN conclude for sure, based on data and experience, is that shrimping doesn't get you choked every time.
So let's say we did a study where there were 1,000 side control escapes were initiated by turning away and baby bridge and 1,000 initiated by turning in and shrimping / framing. Very roughly, what % of each would you expect to result in an escape, a neutral situation, being submitted / having your back taken? And would you expect a significant difference in the %'s if we later sub divided the results into white / blue and purple, brown and black belts.
Ps: assume all rolls are white v white, blue v blue and so on. Happy to provide my estimates first if you prefer :-)
Ps: assume all rolls are white v white, blue v blue and so on. Happy to provide my estimates first if you prefer :-)
Edited 6 year(s) ago
DCBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Shrimping is like breathing...
It's a fundamentally required in a large percentage of techniques... Why not be really good at it?
In any given lesson I'll say something like "now do a little shrimp to get... " or "now forward shrimp to get to..." it's a small cog in a large machine. Is it alone the most effective side control escape... No... Is it a fundamental part/cog of many side control escapes... Yes... Are there other things, such as 'Baby Bridge' that can be used... Yes.
We all breathe ... There are a plethora of breathing techniques and breathing excersizes. Short breathes, large exhales, 1-2-3's etc... But we all need to breathe.
There are many versions of a shrimp and they are all necessary... Within a technique to attack, within a technique to escape and within a technique to sweep... It's fundamental.
You can't hold your breathe you whole life.
You can't Jits without a shrimp.
It's a fundamentally required in a large percentage of techniques... Why not be really good at it?
In any given lesson I'll say something like "now do a little shrimp to get... " or "now forward shrimp to get to..." it's a small cog in a large machine. Is it alone the most effective side control escape... No... Is it a fundamental part/cog of many side control escapes... Yes... Are there other things, such as 'Baby Bridge' that can be used... Yes.
We all breathe ... There are a plethora of breathing techniques and breathing excersizes. Short breathes, large exhales, 1-2-3's etc... But we all need to breathe.
There are many versions of a shrimp and they are all necessary... Within a technique to attack, within a technique to escape and within a technique to sweep... It's fundamental.
You can't hold your breathe you whole life.
You can't Jits without a shrimp.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
So let's say we did a study where there were 1,000 side control escapes were initiated by turning away and baby bridge and 1,000 initiated by turning in and shrimping / framing. Very roughly, what % of each would you expect to result in an escape, a neutral situation, being submitted / having your back taken? And would you expect a significant difference in the %'s if we later sub divided the results into white / blue and purple, brown and black belts. Ps: assume all rolls are white v white, blue v blue and so on. Happy to provide my estimates first if you prefer :-)
I have absolutely zero idea :)
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I have absolutely zero idea :)
And more importantly - the experiment is unrealistic because most successful escapes happen with combining at least two directions/pressures.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I have absolutely zero idea :)
Ok how about this, if you're competing - roughly what an acceptable failure rate from bottom side control for you?
I'm just trying to understand in broad terms, how frequently you could get caught from a certain position before you'd consider it a problem. Like for me, if i was escaping 411 more than 50% of the time, i'd be happy with that. Something like double outside ashi would be ~66% because if i got caught in DOA 3 times in a ~5 minute match then i'd say the problem wasn't my DOA escape but was my guard passing and i wouldn't want to bank on escaping it 3 times.
I'm just trying to understand in broad terms, how frequently you could get caught from a certain position before you'd consider it a problem. Like for me, if i was escaping 411 more than 50% of the time, i'd be happy with that. Something like double outside ashi would be ~66% because if i got caught in DOA 3 times in a ~5 minute match then i'd say the problem wasn't my DOA escape but was my guard passing and i wouldn't want to bank on escaping it 3 times.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I have absolutely zero idea :)
Any idea why i beltchecker keeps blocking this reply to Dave Cork?:
But this is why definitions matter. Jorgen put up a good video of a 'shrimp' from bottom mount, and my comment on s-mount counters aside, I use something similar and like it. But that movement is fundamentally different to the drill. Hip adjustments are like breathing and absolutely essentially. You can't set up a leg knot from inside ashi without adjusting your hips, but again that movement doesn't look anything like what we do in that drill up and down the mat.
But this is why definitions matter. Jorgen put up a good video of a 'shrimp' from bottom mount, and my comment on s-mount counters aside, I use something similar and like it. But that movement is fundamentally different to the drill. Hip adjustments are like breathing and absolutely essentially. You can't set up a leg knot from inside ashi without adjusting your hips, but again that movement doesn't look anything like what we do in that drill up and down the mat.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
