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False fastest BB ever claims on Beltchecker?
3 year(s) ago • 6019 views • 49 replies
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Until late 2013, BJ Penn was considered the fastest ever to black belt, with 3 years, but new claims on Beltchecker sets Remco Pardoel as the fastest BB ever up to 2013, with only 2 years 1 month. See https://www.beltchecker.c[...]hp?id=7263
All evidence however points towards these claims being false, as I'll provide sources for below, including Remco's own previous accounts of his promotion history (there is more to be found, especially if you also search dutch martial arts forums).
That does not take away from being a true pioneer of BJJ in Europe, but as of now, I am the only one who has downvoted the promotion history claims, heavily outweighed by almost 5000 points of upvotes. So does the Beltchecker community condone counterfactual changes to the promotion history of someone wellknown and respected enough or does the community have the integrity to look at the evidence available? Even though I very much respect Remco, this is after all the site where all belts should be checked and I've also shared my findings directly with Remco over a week ago, to give him a heads up and a chance to revise his promotion history before making this post, which he has declined.
Below are my findings, with sources. Please add if you find any evidence pointing in a different direction (or more pointing in the same direction).
1993, nov 27-28: First encounter of BJJ practitioners, at the 1:st JJIF World Cup
Source: https://www.bjjee.com/int[...]dj-career/
1996, feb 4: Claims of receiving black belt from Carlos Gracie jr. / Fernando Yamasaki, which would make it just slightly over two years from first encountering BJJ (and without any instructing BJJ BB living in Holland at the time).
Source: Remco's promotion history. https://www.beltchecker.c[...]hp?id=7263
Being pushed into the worlds black belt division in 1996 as a white belt is really cool and old school, but not the same as a BB promotion. His match in the worlds was him (~120kg) vs Liborio (~80kg), who has later complimented him on his base and strength, although the initiative in the match was all Liborio's (see video on Youtube). Remco didn't have a BJJ belt at the time though and has expressed that he wasn't by far at the level of the best 8 in the world.
Sources:
https://web.archive.org/w[...]co_01.html and
https://www.bjjee.com/int[...]dj-career/
Pod (56 min in) at https://www.bjjee.com/bjj[...]ly-values/
2001 January interview: "I have no belt in Brazil"
Source: https://web.archive.org/w[...]co_01.html
2005 Purple belt promotion from Kazeka Muniz
Can't find the source I first found. Will have to get back to that one later.
2005 Purple belt competitor in Bud Cup 2005 (which there should also be a film from)
Sources: https://www.mixfight.nl/f[...])!-results and https://www.reddit.com/r/[...]raight_to/
Remco himself writes about it in a forum post (use translator): https://www.mixfight.nl/f[...])!-results (now: http://web.archive.org/we[...])!-results)
2007 (May) Black belt from Vinicius ‘Draculino’ Malgaes in May 2007
Source: https://slideyfoot.wordpr[...]y/history/ (search for Remco)
2015 BB 2:nd degree under Draculino (promotion could have been two years earlier)
Source: Mentioned in presentation at beginning of https://www.youtube.com/w[...]Ktwa53FjO8
Looks like three stripes on belt. Borrowed belt or pre-promotion because of logistical reasons? Unclear. Still not matching new claims in profile.
2017 BB 3:rd degree BJJ (promotion could have been the year before)
Source: The pod (2½ minutes in) enbedded at https://www.bjjee.com/bjj[...]ly-values/ (also see 3 stripes in pic)
Currently 4:th degree BB according to Remco's profile on LinkedIn
Source: https://www.linkedin.com/[...]xperience/
As additional evidence, I attach a photo that is the google translated version of a forum post by Remco, where the url on top points to the original in dutch. Note that the previously mentioned 2007 black belt from Draculino is approximately 10 years from the absolute match in the worlds. Also, the degrees on black belt mentioned in the sources above matches this 2007 BB timeline but does not at all match the date of the degrees shown on Remco's current profile on Beltchecker. In fact, it seems to be impossible to find anything matching the 1996 BB timeline online outside of Remco's recent adding of it to his profile.
Hopefully, this is just a misunderstanding on Remco's part, as he gives the impression of being a very nice and humble guy, besides having made important contributions to early European BJJ and MMA.
All evidence however points towards these claims being false, as I'll provide sources for below, including Remco's own previous accounts of his promotion history (there is more to be found, especially if you also search dutch martial arts forums).
That does not take away from being a true pioneer of BJJ in Europe, but as of now, I am the only one who has downvoted the promotion history claims, heavily outweighed by almost 5000 points of upvotes. So does the Beltchecker community condone counterfactual changes to the promotion history of someone wellknown and respected enough or does the community have the integrity to look at the evidence available? Even though I very much respect Remco, this is after all the site where all belts should be checked and I've also shared my findings directly with Remco over a week ago, to give him a heads up and a chance to revise his promotion history before making this post, which he has declined.
Below are my findings, with sources. Please add if you find any evidence pointing in a different direction (or more pointing in the same direction).
1993, nov 27-28: First encounter of BJJ practitioners, at the 1:st JJIF World Cup
Source: https://www.bjjee.com/int[...]dj-career/
1996, feb 4: Claims of receiving black belt from Carlos Gracie jr. / Fernando Yamasaki, which would make it just slightly over two years from first encountering BJJ (and without any instructing BJJ BB living in Holland at the time).
Source: Remco's promotion history. https://www.beltchecker.c[...]hp?id=7263
Being pushed into the worlds black belt division in 1996 as a white belt is really cool and old school, but not the same as a BB promotion. His match in the worlds was him (~120kg) vs Liborio (~80kg), who has later complimented him on his base and strength, although the initiative in the match was all Liborio's (see video on Youtube). Remco didn't have a BJJ belt at the time though and has expressed that he wasn't by far at the level of the best 8 in the world.
Sources:
https://web.archive.org/w[...]co_01.html and
https://www.bjjee.com/int[...]dj-career/
Pod (56 min in) at https://www.bjjee.com/bjj[...]ly-values/
2001 January interview: "I have no belt in Brazil"
Source: https://web.archive.org/w[...]co_01.html
2005 Purple belt promotion from Kazeka Muniz
Can't find the source I first found. Will have to get back to that one later.
2005 Purple belt competitor in Bud Cup 2005 (which there should also be a film from)
Sources: https://www.mixfight.nl/f[...])!-results and https://www.reddit.com/r/[...]raight_to/
Remco himself writes about it in a forum post (use translator): https://www.mixfight.nl/f[...])!-results (now: http://web.archive.org/we[...])!-results)
2007 (May) Black belt from Vinicius ‘Draculino’ Malgaes in May 2007
Source: https://slideyfoot.wordpr[...]y/history/ (search for Remco)
2015 BB 2:nd degree under Draculino (promotion could have been two years earlier)
Source: Mentioned in presentation at beginning of https://www.youtube.com/w[...]Ktwa53FjO8
Looks like three stripes on belt. Borrowed belt or pre-promotion because of logistical reasons? Unclear. Still not matching new claims in profile.
2017 BB 3:rd degree BJJ (promotion could have been the year before)
Source: The pod (2½ minutes in) enbedded at https://www.bjjee.com/bjj[...]ly-values/ (also see 3 stripes in pic)
Currently 4:th degree BB according to Remco's profile on LinkedIn
Source: https://www.linkedin.com/[...]xperience/
As additional evidence, I attach a photo that is the google translated version of a forum post by Remco, where the url on top points to the original in dutch. Note that the previously mentioned 2007 black belt from Draculino is approximately 10 years from the absolute match in the worlds. Also, the degrees on black belt mentioned in the sources above matches this 2007 BB timeline but does not at all match the date of the degrees shown on Remco's current profile on Beltchecker. In fact, it seems to be impossible to find anything matching the 1996 BB timeline online outside of Remco's recent adding of it to his profile.
Hopefully, this is just a misunderstanding on Remco's part, as he gives the impression of being a very nice and humble guy, besides having made important contributions to early European BJJ and MMA.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Profile says black belt in 1996 by Carlos Gracie jr. / Fernando Yamasaki but sounds like it was 2007 by Draculino?
Looks like the promotion history is somehow incorrect, probably an honest mistake. Nevertheless, it should be corrected (or at least explained) to keep information on here trustworthy and valid 🙂
Looks like the promotion history is somehow incorrect, probably an honest mistake. Nevertheless, it should be corrected (or at least explained) to keep information on here trustworthy and valid 🙂
Edited 3 year(s) ago
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Here is another old forum post by Remco where he writes that his student Mathieu Peters was the first in the Benelux countries to get a BJJ black belt.
See the sources below, where we can see that Mathieu got his BB in 2007 on January 27:th.
https://ajptour.com/en/pr[...]file/17791
https://events.uaejjf.org[...]file/17791
https://bjjdenbosch.nl/trainers/
https://jjfhaarlem.nl/en-[...]bout-jjfia
(screenshot is from the google translated version of https://www.mixfight.nl/f[...]son-Gracie (now: http://web.archive.org/we[...]son-Gracie), with original in Dutch, with some gray paint over some extra letters that the English translation added to the surname but missing in the original language version)
See the sources below, where we can see that Mathieu got his BB in 2007 on January 27:th.
https://ajptour.com/en/pr[...]file/17791
https://events.uaejjf.org[...]file/17791
https://bjjdenbosch.nl/trainers/
https://jjfhaarlem.nl/en-[...]bout-jjfia
(screenshot is from the google translated version of https://www.mixfight.nl/f[...]son-Gracie (now: http://web.archive.org/we[...]son-Gracie), with original in Dutch, with some gray paint over some extra letters that the English translation added to the surname but missing in the original language version)
Edited 3 year(s) ago
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Johan doing the Lord's work.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Johan doing the Lord's work.
Just some simple integrity and due dilligence, which I think everyone should do before putting their points out there.
TPBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Remco is the first BJJ black belt from Holland? (Or is it Peters..?) There are plenty of Dutch OGs on this platform, I'd think it would be pretty much general knowledge whether the country's first black belt was awarded in 1996 or 2007 (this is quite a significant time gap...), and who is the first one.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Remco is the first BJJ black belt from Holland? (Or is it Peters..?)
According to Remco in 2009, it was Peters (in 2007). According to Remco in 2023, it was himself in 1996.
It would be very much general knowledge in the whole of Europe if Remco had been awarded black belt already in 1996. And general knowledge of the whole world if he beat BJ Penn at being fastest in the world to BB up to 2013.
Would be interesting though to hear from the Dutch members of the community if they got any indications between 1996 and 2007 that Remco had been awarded a BJJ black belt from Yamasaki and Carlinho. Perhaps someone who regularly meet any of them can also ask them directly if they awarded Remco the then fastest black belt ever or just entered him into the black belt division of the worlds.
It would be very much general knowledge in the whole of Europe if Remco had been awarded black belt already in 1996. And general knowledge of the whole world if he beat BJ Penn at being fastest in the world to BB up to 2013.
Would be interesting though to hear from the Dutch members of the community if they got any indications between 1996 and 2007 that Remco had been awarded a BJJ black belt from Yamasaki and Carlinho. Perhaps someone who regularly meet any of them can also ask them directly if they awarded Remco the then fastest black belt ever or just entered him into the black belt division of the worlds.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I'm pretty sure that the French people, Christian Derval (rip), Alain Nagera and Patrick Bittan were the first around 2000 promoted by Flavio Behring. It was kind of specizl because they go strait from blue to Black belt. I didn't remember anybody as Black belt before them, around Belgium i would say. But i maybe miss something, it's like 23 years ago and it was harder to be avare of everything than nowadays with New technologies.
P.s.:
One thing is still writed in stone, Remco is a fucking legend of our sport and one of the very first european to start training bjj.
P.s.:
One thing is still writed in stone, Remco is a fucking legend of our sport and one of the very first european to start training bjj.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
For perspective I have done many interviews where I have been misquoted especially on things like dates and records where their is a numeric value.
Does anyone doubt that Remco is legit or that he should be allowed to promote people to Black Belt.
I know this site is a peer review site and as such is going to mean different things to different people and that's great.
In Remco's defense I honestly don't think he cares. Someone was upset that he just listed himself as a black belt down voted him and started a thread on it. Now he lists something and I guess there were flaws in what he listed and it is peoples right to question. Some people actually don't care or keep records of promotions as they may not be that important to them.
Does anyone doubt that Remco is legit or that he should be allowed to promote people to Black Belt.
I know this site is a peer review site and as such is going to mean different things to different people and that's great.
In Remco's defense I honestly don't think he cares. Someone was upset that he just listed himself as a black belt down voted him and started a thread on it. Now he lists something and I guess there were flaws in what he listed and it is peoples right to question. Some people actually don't care or keep records of promotions as they may not be that important to them.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Some people actually don't care or keep records of promotions as they may not be that important to them.
Most people would have trouble remembering promotion dates or even years pre-smartphones. But 10 years is quite a bit, especially when also claiming black belt degrees for time served in that period 🙂
At the end of the day, this is Beltchecker. We check belts 🤷🏼♂️
At the end of the day, this is Beltchecker. We check belts 🤷🏼♂️
DBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Just my 2 cents, but for the older OGs who we all know have built the sport, I don't think we need a Spanish inquisition. Back in the day, shit was more complicated with lineages etc. That said, I completely appreciate your thoroughness Jonah.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Back in the day, shit was more complicated with lineages etc.
What was more complicated? I feel like back in the day it was way easier, as there were fewer degrees of separation between Carlos/Helio/whoever.
I mean, who out there doesn't know the person who gave them their belt?
I mean, who out there doesn't know the person who gave them their belt?
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I mean, who out there doesn't know the person who gave them their belt?
Suddenly, after 27 years, remembering being promoted to a black belt you 22 years ago didn't remember being promoted to ("I have no belt in Brazil" ) seems all kinds of sus.
Also, wouldn't it be quite extreme cheating to compete as a purple belt (in Bud Cup 2005) while being a 2:nd degree black belt?
To me, it also seems very disrespectful towards the actual instructor (Draculino) who did the promotion to black belt and was previously described as a mentor. But now claiming you got your own black belt less than a year after he did.
Claiming to be the fastest ever to get BB up to 2013, I also see as disrespectful to BJ Penn. Not to mention retroactively faking yourself into top positions in the fastest ever black belt list and the list of European and global non-Brazilian "dirty dozen" (twelve first black belts) inevitably pushes others down the list and someone else out of having the honor of being on the list. Are the others on those lists less "legends" than Remco or why are they less deserving of keeping their place there?
So I think we have all reason to not only check belts up to 2:nd degree black belt but also above, for the integrity of the degrees, the sport and the BJJ community.
Yes, there are many "legends" with old degrees not confirming with today's standards, but having been promoted to black belt in 2007, you can't really claim you retroactively fit into that category. I still hope that this is all a mistake, because you can't both be considered humble and not really caring about your degree and knowingly pulling or adhering to this kind of stunt.
Does anyone NOT think there is overwhelming evidence for the 2007 BB timeline and none what so ever in support for the 1996 BB timeline? Please speak up! We don't need a Spanish inquisition, but we need to show integrity and not adhere to "alternative facts".
Also, wouldn't it be quite extreme cheating to compete as a purple belt (in Bud Cup 2005) while being a 2:nd degree black belt?
To me, it also seems very disrespectful towards the actual instructor (Draculino) who did the promotion to black belt and was previously described as a mentor. But now claiming you got your own black belt less than a year after he did.
Claiming to be the fastest ever to get BB up to 2013, I also see as disrespectful to BJ Penn. Not to mention retroactively faking yourself into top positions in the fastest ever black belt list and the list of European and global non-Brazilian "dirty dozen" (twelve first black belts) inevitably pushes others down the list and someone else out of having the honor of being on the list. Are the others on those lists less "legends" than Remco or why are they less deserving of keeping their place there?
So I think we have all reason to not only check belts up to 2:nd degree black belt but also above, for the integrity of the degrees, the sport and the BJJ community.
Yes, there are many "legends" with old degrees not confirming with today's standards, but having been promoted to black belt in 2007, you can't really claim you retroactively fit into that category. I still hope that this is all a mistake, because you can't both be considered humble and not really caring about your degree and knowingly pulling or adhering to this kind of stunt.
Does anyone NOT think there is overwhelming evidence for the 2007 BB timeline and none what so ever in support for the 1996 BB timeline? Please speak up! We don't need a Spanish inquisition, but we need to show integrity and not adhere to "alternative facts".
Edited 3 year(s) ago
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Suddenly, after 27 years, remembering being promoted to a black belt you 22 years ago didn't remember being promoted to ('I have no belt in Brazil' ) seems all kinds of sus. Also, wouldn't it be quite extreme cheating to compete as a purple belt (in Bud Cup 2005) while being a 2:nd degree black belt? To me, it also seems very disrespectful towards the actual instructor (Draculino) who did the promotion to black belt and was previously described as a mentor. But now claiming you got your own black belt less than a year after he did. Claiming to be the fastest ever to get BB up to 2013, I also see as disrespectful to BJ Penn. Not to mention retroactively faking yourself into top positions in the fastest ever black belt list and the list of European and global non-Brazilian 'dirty dozen' (twelve first black belts) inevitably pushes others down the list and someone else out of having the honor of being on the list. Are the others on those lists less 'legends' than Remco or why are they less deserving of keeping their place there? So I think we have all reason to not only check belts up to 2:nd degree black belt but also above, for the integrity of the degrees, the sport and the BJJ community. Yes, there are many 'legends' with old degrees not confirming with today's standards, but having been promoted to black belt in 2007, you can't really claim you retroactively fit into that category. I still hope that this is all a mistake, because you can't both be considered humble and not really caring about your degree and knowingly pulling or adhering to this kind of stunt. Does anyone NOT think there is overwhelming evidence for the 2007 BB timeline and none what so ever in support for the 1996 BB timeline? Please speak up! We don't need a Spanish inquisition, but we need to show integrity and not adhere to 'alternative facts'.
You forget to mention that apparently it is direspectful to you too, because you couldn't sleep since you have been on this whole case...
You give us your idea about it and you show some evidences, so now i think that it's better to wait for someone to answerd those and do not bash on Remco back, if he's away of beltchecker for days and being back he sees 4 pages of people denonciations, maybe he will just quit the website or never answerd again. So wait and see....
You give us your idea about it and you show some evidences, so now i think that it's better to wait for someone to answerd those and do not bash on Remco back, if he's away of beltchecker for days and being back he sees 4 pages of people denonciations, maybe he will just quit the website or never answerd again. So wait and see....
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Suddenly, after 27 years, remembering being promoted to a black belt you 22 years ago didn't remember being promoted to ('I have no belt in Brazil' ) seems all kinds of sus. Also, wouldn't it be quite extreme cheating to compete as a purple belt (in Bud Cup 2005) while being a 2:nd degree black belt? To me, it also seems very disrespectful towards the actual instructor (Draculino) who did the promotion to black belt and was previously described as a mentor. But now claiming you got your own black belt less than a year after he did. Claiming to be the fastest ever to get BB up to 2013, I also see as disrespectful to BJ Penn. Not to mention retroactively faking yourself into top positions in the fastest ever black belt list and the list of European and global non-Brazilian 'dirty dozen' (twelve first black belts) inevitably pushes others down the list and someone else out of having the honor of being on the list. Are the others on those lists less 'legends' than Remco or why are they less deserving of keeping their place there? So I think we have all reason to not only check belts up to 2:nd degree black belt but also above, for the integrity of the degrees, the sport and the BJJ community. Yes, there are many 'legends' with old degrees not confirming with today's standards, but having been promoted to black belt in 2007, you can't really claim you retroactively fit into that category. I still hope that this is all a mistake, because you can't both be considered humble and not really caring about your degree and knowingly pulling or adhering to this kind of stunt. Does anyone NOT think there is overwhelming evidence for the 2007 BB timeline and none what so ever in support for the 1996 BB timeline? Please speak up! We don't need a Spanish inquisition, but we need to show integrity and not adhere to 'alternative facts'.
I think my point is originally he just listed himself as a Black Belt with zero stripes and in that case the date of belt and degrees where not significant.
That became an issue. And I guess this was his response. Do I know if his posted history is true? NO... You have EVERY RIGHT to question it and you feel strongly enough to call him out as a liar and fraud and that is your right and the site is Beltchecker.
I am just saying a lot of us on the site do not feel ass strongly as you do I tend to vote based on if I believe the guy is legit and truthfully I personally think the stripes are kind of funny as they are survival promotions.
Just as you have the right to be upset I have the right to view it diffently. I originally joined this site because of their conflict with the IBJJF and the whole BJJ Globetrotters site. What I found was a great group of peers sharing ideas and supporting each other and that's why I stay
That became an issue. And I guess this was his response. Do I know if his posted history is true? NO... You have EVERY RIGHT to question it and you feel strongly enough to call him out as a liar and fraud and that is your right and the site is Beltchecker.
I am just saying a lot of us on the site do not feel ass strongly as you do I tend to vote based on if I believe the guy is legit and truthfully I personally think the stripes are kind of funny as they are survival promotions.
Just as you have the right to be upset I have the right to view it diffently. I originally joined this site because of their conflict with the IBJJF and the whole BJJ Globetrotters site. What I found was a great group of peers sharing ideas and supporting each other and that's why I stay
DBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
What was more complicated? I feel like back in the day it was way easier, as there were fewer degrees of separation between Carlos/Helio/whoever. I mean, who out there doesn't know the person who gave them their belt?
People took lineages more seriously and jumping back and forth across different schools led to more drama and consequently belt fuckery. That said, I only said that as most of the belt fuckery I know of was from back then. Airplane black belts as Carlson used to say. Blue belt in Brazil but by the time they land in the US, black belt.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
You forget to mention that apparently it is direspectful to you too, because you couldn't sleep since you have been on this whole case...
Remco should in either case have a higher rank than I do and pre this have acted nothing but humble from what I can see, while having a background where he even fought in the UFC before most of us even had started training BJJ. So no, I don't feel victimized in this. I actually think Remco himself would be the worst one off sticking to the new claims, as they really don't fit his persona.
VBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I think my point is originally he just listed himself as a Black Belt with zero stripes and in that case the date of belt and degrees where not significant. That became an issue. And I guess this was his response. Do I know if his posted history is true? NO... You have EVERY RIGHT to question it and you feel strongly enough to call him out as a liar and fraud and that is your right and the site is Beltchecker. I am just saying a lot of us on the site do not feel ass strongly as you do I tend to vote based on if I believe the guy is legit and truthfully I personally think the stripes are kind of funny as they are survival promotions. Just as you have the right to be upset I have the right to view it diffently. I originally joined this site because of their conflict with the IBJJF and the whole BJJ Globetrotters site. What I found was a great group of peers sharing ideas and supporting each other and that's why I stay
Well said my friend
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
At this point I think there has been plenty of time to correct or explain the promotion history (private message, wall, forum). I'm dropping a friendly downvote on this one until things are cleared.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Remcos claims of being co-promoted to black belt by Fernando Yamasaki in 1996 are not true. I asked Fernando directly and he had not promoted or co-promoted Remco to black belt. He seemed a bit annoyed to get the question, but if you know him well, you too can confirm with him he was not the one who promoted Remco to black belt (as we know now, Draculino was, in 2007).
Fernando mentioned that CBJJ themselves might have promoted Remco, which sounded a bit odd, without the involvement of a specific promoting instructor. I checked this with CBJJ (in portuguese), specifically asking if they at any time historically had promoted anyone to black belt themselves as an organization, and no, they hadn't. This too can be confirmed by anyone contacting CBJJ on the issue.
So Fernando didn't promote or co-promote Remco to black belt in 1996 and CBJJ didn't promote Remco to black belt in 1996.
I haven't been able to reach Carlinho. Is anyone in close contact with him and can ask him the same questions? Considering Draculino himself is a Carlinho black belt as well as part of Gracie Barra, founded by Carlinho, it seems extremely unlikely thay Draculino would promote someone to black belt which had already been promoted to black belt by Carlinho 11 years prior. Also, IBJJF, controlled by Carlinho, lists Remco as a 2:nd degree BB under Gracie Barra Texas, which has a certain Draculino as their head instructor.
So you people who still have not reversed your votes, what kind of evidence would you need to be convinced that the promotion history of Remco is inaccurate by 11 years and with the wrong promoting instructors written on all belts?
Fernando mentioned that CBJJ themselves might have promoted Remco, which sounded a bit odd, without the involvement of a specific promoting instructor. I checked this with CBJJ (in portuguese), specifically asking if they at any time historically had promoted anyone to black belt themselves as an organization, and no, they hadn't. This too can be confirmed by anyone contacting CBJJ on the issue.
So Fernando didn't promote or co-promote Remco to black belt in 1996 and CBJJ didn't promote Remco to black belt in 1996.
I haven't been able to reach Carlinho. Is anyone in close contact with him and can ask him the same questions? Considering Draculino himself is a Carlinho black belt as well as part of Gracie Barra, founded by Carlinho, it seems extremely unlikely thay Draculino would promote someone to black belt which had already been promoted to black belt by Carlinho 11 years prior. Also, IBJJF, controlled by Carlinho, lists Remco as a 2:nd degree BB under Gracie Barra Texas, which has a certain Draculino as their head instructor.
So you people who still have not reversed your votes, what kind of evidence would you need to be convinced that the promotion history of Remco is inaccurate by 11 years and with the wrong promoting instructors written on all belts?
Edited 3 year(s) ago
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
R So you people who still have not reversed your votes, what kind of evidence would you need to be convinced that the promotion history of Remco is inaccurate by 11 years and with the wrong promoting instructors written on all belts?
Why is it important to you that others change their vote?
I have read your posts and you have your dispute up on his page so people can see
I have read your posts and you have your dispute up on his page so people can see
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Why is it important to you that others change their vote?
Why is it important to you to ask that question?
I joined Beltchecker because I felt the global BJJ community was missing a transparent and structured belt registry which acted according to facts and with integrity instead of hunger for dollars and different standards for different people. All the way from the beginning, it has been anounced that it is an experiment and votes being open to discussion and attempts to sway opinion.
When there is such an obvious case of false information and the mechanisms of the site seem to cause it to be extremely difficult to back the tape once someone has been heavily verified (with time-served-promotions never being up for re-verification), that takes away the entire purpose of this project, the way I have perceived it. If obviously false belt records like this are not corrected by the community, even I have to agree that being verified on Beltchecker is very much subpar to being verified by IBJJF, with all it's flaws and lack of transparency. I personally think it is worth an effort not to let it go that far, but everyone might not agree.
I joined Beltchecker because I felt the global BJJ community was missing a transparent and structured belt registry which acted according to facts and with integrity instead of hunger for dollars and different standards for different people. All the way from the beginning, it has been anounced that it is an experiment and votes being open to discussion and attempts to sway opinion.
When there is such an obvious case of false information and the mechanisms of the site seem to cause it to be extremely difficult to back the tape once someone has been heavily verified (with time-served-promotions never being up for re-verification), that takes away the entire purpose of this project, the way I have perceived it. If obviously false belt records like this are not corrected by the community, even I have to agree that being verified on Beltchecker is very much subpar to being verified by IBJJF, with all it's flaws and lack of transparency. I personally think it is worth an effort not to let it go that far, but everyone might not agree.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Why is it important to you that others change their vote? I have read your posts and you have your dispute up on his page so people can see
I have to agree with Johan here. If lying about your promotions is not enough reason to change (or at least remove) a vote, then what kind of beltchecking are you actually doing on Beltchecker 🤷🏼♂️
(Writing this not in my role as one of the developers of the site, but just as myself with an interest in the data verification we're doing here)
(Writing this not in my role as one of the developers of the site, but just as myself with an interest in the data verification we're doing here)
TPBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Impressive, Johan. Earned my dispute for the profile in question.
While it's true that it can be hard to have users withdraw their votes (or change them to disputes) if the person is of a high status or a personal friend, the negative points are still very visible on the top of a profile, and will hopefully make people viewing the profile look into why they are given. Also users who have voted will get a notification that the profile has been disputed (if they still regularly check the site...).
Remco is a renowned figure, but putting your black belt date 10+ years earlier and by a promoter who denies giving it, can't fly. Amazes me too that so many seem to be cool with that.
While it's true that it can be hard to have users withdraw their votes (or change them to disputes) if the person is of a high status or a personal friend, the negative points are still very visible on the top of a profile, and will hopefully make people viewing the profile look into why they are given. Also users who have voted will get a notification that the profile has been disputed (if they still regularly check the site...).
Remco is a renowned figure, but putting your black belt date 10+ years earlier and by a promoter who denies giving it, can't fly. Amazes me too that so many seem to be cool with that.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Once the IBJJF blessed his promotion and certified his black belt, he is a black belt.
Unless the IBJJF rescinds his belt certification he is a (administratively) legit Black Belt period, skills wise there is no question whatsover.
The dates of promotion and some claims are questionable but his belt it not.
My vote stands.
Unless the IBJJF rescinds his belt certification he is a (administratively) legit Black Belt period, skills wise there is no question whatsover.
The dates of promotion and some claims are questionable but his belt it not.
My vote stands.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Once the IBJJF blessed his promotion and certified his black belt, he is a black belt.
Will you then dispute if Remco claims to be the first European born coral belt 3½ years from now, if IBJJF still lists him as a black belt and not a coral belt?
Btw, would you verify someone as a 6:th degree black belt if they started training BJJ only five years ago and just got their black belt registered with IBJJF? If so, would you at least withdraw your vote before they'd be able to use your vote points for an automatic time served update to coral belt on Beltchecker, after only 11 years of training?
Btw, would you verify someone as a 6:th degree black belt if they started training BJJ only five years ago and just got their black belt registered with IBJJF? If so, would you at least withdraw your vote before they'd be able to use your vote points for an automatic time served update to coral belt on Beltchecker, after only 11 years of training?
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Will you then dispute if Remco claims to be the first European born coral belt 3½ years from now, if IBJJF still lists him as a black belt and not a coral belt? Btw, would you verify someone as a 6:th degree black belt if they started training BJJ only five years ago and just got their black belt registered with IBJJF? If so, would you at least withdraw your vote before they'd be able to use your vote points for an automatic time served update to coral belt on Beltchecker, after only 11 years of training?
I am a 3rd due for my 4th since April and the IBJJF has me listed as a 2nd for lapsing my dues. Does that invalidate my belt as well?
You are not even listed on the IBJJF site. Does that invalidate your belt? I don't think so.
We all know Remco has been training BJJ for more than 11 years.
If I dispute, it will be on my own terms, without influence.
You are not even listed on the IBJJF site. Does that invalidate your belt? I don't think so.
We all know Remco has been training BJJ for more than 11 years.
If I dispute, it will be on my own terms, without influence.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
What is it about "Social Experiment" that people do not understand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/[...]experiment
https://kpu.pressbooks.pu[...]-research/
The subjects never realize they are being observed.
The obersvations can be both informative and entertaining to the researchers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/[...]experiment
https://kpu.pressbooks.pu[...]-research/
The subjects never realize they are being observed.
The obersvations can be both informative and entertaining to the researchers.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I am a 3rd due for my 4th since April and the IBJJF has me listed as a 2nd for lapsing my dues. Does that invalidate my belt as well?
You avoided my questions. Will you please answer them?
Plus you too know that one of the central ideas behind Beltchecker is to remove moneygrab payments as part of the degree criteria. An IBJJF registered black belt can be lifted as evidence but not having paid IBJJF:s moneygrab fees and thus not being listed with them is not proof that someone does not hold a degree (but they should of course then submit other evidence).
Though you might be thinking of Beltchecker as a social experiment along the lines of those clickbait youtube shorts made with unbeknown subjects giving you voyeuristic satisfaction and amusement watching their reactions from an von oben perspective, I think that's quite the cynical stance and patronizing to members who actually hope for something valuable to come out of Beltchecker, besides personal entertainment. Having a degree in psychology, I'm quite aware how an actual scientific social experiment is conducted. I however don't need a degree in psychology to get the feeling you really want to divert the discussion from discussing actual facts of the matter. May I ask why?
P.S. I'm still not Jonah the whale guy. See my profile pics for a pedagogic picture ;-)
Plus you too know that one of the central ideas behind Beltchecker is to remove moneygrab payments as part of the degree criteria. An IBJJF registered black belt can be lifted as evidence but not having paid IBJJF:s moneygrab fees and thus not being listed with them is not proof that someone does not hold a degree (but they should of course then submit other evidence).
Though you might be thinking of Beltchecker as a social experiment along the lines of those clickbait youtube shorts made with unbeknown subjects giving you voyeuristic satisfaction and amusement watching their reactions from an von oben perspective, I think that's quite the cynical stance and patronizing to members who actually hope for something valuable to come out of Beltchecker, besides personal entertainment. Having a degree in psychology, I'm quite aware how an actual scientific social experiment is conducted. I however don't need a degree in psychology to get the feeling you really want to divert the discussion from discussing actual facts of the matter. May I ask why?
P.S. I'm still not Jonah the whale guy. See my profile pics for a pedagogic picture ;-)
