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Ecological method of teaching/training
2 year(s) ago • 9476 views • 228 replies
FFBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 month(s) ago
If I may, every time the description of the game (or drill or situational sparring or whatever you want to call it) does not allow me to immediately and exactly understand what both player are tasked to do, I think that this is not clear in the mind of the coach, and/or the coach is trying to create an aesthetic of movement rather than an effective result.
As a coach, the research for the most effective and precise language is a must. I could unpack a real lot of posts on this thread were the language is ambiguous and vague, which means the exercise is not clear and the results can not be the best, or at least can not be what the coach is searching. This normally happens when the underlying conditions that need to be met in order for anything to happen (emerge), are not clear for the coach.
As a coach, the research for the most effective and precise language is a must. I could unpack a real lot of posts on this thread were the language is ambiguous and vague, which means the exercise is not clear and the results can not be the best, or at least can not be what the coach is searching. This normally happens when the underlying conditions that need to be met in order for anything to happen (emerge), are not clear for the coach.
HLPurple beltVerified
6 month(s) ago
I could unpack a real lot of posts on this thread were the language is ambiguous and vague, which means the exercise is not clear and the results can not be the best, or at least can not be what the coach is searching. This normally happens when the underlying conditions that need to be met in order for anything to happen (emerge), are not clear for the coach.
Very true. Reason for filming the games is to help us discuss the same event. Communication is always unclear. Language is unclear because real idea, goal and tasks are not developed yet. Also task will be given in finish, not in english and most likely all will be modified if the game does not work as it is thought. Like flow type of reactions and redirections and guard retention movements.
When a game starts and instructor sees that players do not really understand what is the task, instructor is allowed to give more information and explain. This might also happen if situational sparring ( game) is one sided. I would like it to be 30-70% winning, if game has a win condition.
In one session the instruction for guard player was just to try to make three frames all the time.
I just want them to move and read their opponent better.
When a game starts and instructor sees that players do not really understand what is the task, instructor is allowed to give more information and explain. This might also happen if situational sparring ( game) is one sided. I would like it to be 30-70% winning, if game has a win condition.
In one session the instruction for guard player was just to try to make three frames all the time.
I just want them to move and read their opponent better.
FFBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 month(s) ago
In one session the instruction for guard player was just to try to make three frames all the time. I just want them to move and read their opponent better.
Ok but this is exactly the kind of language I'm talking about.
"Make three frames all the time" does not tell me what I'm supposed to do.
Let's assume that something on this line is going on:
"One player wants to pass, the bottom player has to keep three frames at all times"
Even though my guys can recognise a frame when they see one (and even here I could say something against this), that explanation does not help to organise behaviour. It does not tell them what's going on.
So let's assume we want to work our frames (still not how I would approach things, but I'm working with what I'm given).
Today we want to work on keeping our frame on our partner to prevent them from passing and reset our guard.
We are starting in half guard but with the knee shield.
Top player, your terminal goal is to make chest to chest connection while having at least one underhook. You can not break distance so you will not stand up, but you are allowed to tripod.
Bottom player, I want you to focus on your middle joint. You have two elbows and two knees. Your continuos task is to try keeping at least three of those between you and your partner. You can connect with your hands too, for example you could have contact to their shoulder by keeping your hand on one of their shoulders and your elbow on the other one. Same goes for the hip. You are not allowed to sit.
Switch top to bottom when top player reaches the terminal goal.
I hope I'm not the only one who sees the difference here.
"Make three frames all the time" does not tell me what I'm supposed to do.
Let's assume that something on this line is going on:
"One player wants to pass, the bottom player has to keep three frames at all times"
Even though my guys can recognise a frame when they see one (and even here I could say something against this), that explanation does not help to organise behaviour. It does not tell them what's going on.
So let's assume we want to work our frames (still not how I would approach things, but I'm working with what I'm given).
Today we want to work on keeping our frame on our partner to prevent them from passing and reset our guard.
We are starting in half guard but with the knee shield.
Top player, your terminal goal is to make chest to chest connection while having at least one underhook. You can not break distance so you will not stand up, but you are allowed to tripod.
Bottom player, I want you to focus on your middle joint. You have two elbows and two knees. Your continuos task is to try keeping at least three of those between you and your partner. You can connect with your hands too, for example you could have contact to their shoulder by keeping your hand on one of their shoulders and your elbow on the other one. Same goes for the hip. You are not allowed to sit.
Switch top to bottom when top player reaches the terminal goal.
I hope I'm not the only one who sees the difference here.
HLPurple beltVerified
6 month(s) ago
Ok but this is exactly the kind of language I'm talking about. "Make three frames all the time" does not tell me what I'm supposed to do.
Well that was a an instruction that player understod very well and it help him a lot. You just need to know how to speak to your students. :-)
I am still in development phase of next Tuesdays games. Most likely I will start with some kind of slowroll type of movement. Not actual game. After some experiments we will do a sweeping game and a guard passing game. Both might have multiple corrections. I would like students to unbalance more and also use the connection for feeling and affecting their opponent.
Students are fairly new. I think intention or why is a win important needs to be adressed. For me a win is something that would give an advantage to the player. (This is not clear in my mind yet, because guard retention does not give an advantage. Advantage would be to get a dominate grip and option to attack - but guard retention is still a good move .)
Lets not make problems before we have any. Filming on tuesday and then you can share more great ideas how to make games more effective
I am still in development phase of next Tuesdays games. Most likely I will start with some kind of slowroll type of movement. Not actual game. After some experiments we will do a sweeping game and a guard passing game. Both might have multiple corrections. I would like students to unbalance more and also use the connection for feeling and affecting their opponent.
Students are fairly new. I think intention or why is a win important needs to be adressed. For me a win is something that would give an advantage to the player. (This is not clear in my mind yet, because guard retention does not give an advantage. Advantage would be to get a dominate grip and option to attack - but guard retention is still a good move .)
Lets not make problems before we have any. Filming on tuesday and then you can share more great ideas how to make games more effective
LSBlack beltVerified
6 month(s) ago
I’d say guard retention keeps you in an advantageous position. In which you can attack and defend with all your limbs
HLPurple beltVerified
6 month(s) ago
I’d say guard retention keeps you in an advantageous position. In which you can attack and defend with all your limbs
Very true, unless your are so head deep in guard retention moves that you cannot see any affordances or possipilities to attack.
Bat that is not the subject of Tuesday. First thing first...
Tuesdays training session is cancelled! No video until next Tuesday.
Bat that is not the subject of Tuesday. First thing first...
Tuesdays training session is cancelled! No video until next Tuesday.
RCBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 week(s) ago
Hey, just to add to this thread, if anyone is interested, I updated my profile page with all my videos using the Ecological/Constraints-Led Approach and put all the links of the podcasts I have been on discussing this
I'm not looking to debate about the theory and methods here 😂 just providing resources if you're interested in how I have interpreted and applied it over the years and I'm still in the process of developing my practice
https://www.beltchecker.c[...]p?id=33573
I'm not looking to debate about the theory and methods here 😂 just providing resources if you're interested in how I have interpreted and applied it over the years and I'm still in the process of developing my practice
https://www.beltchecker.c[...]p?id=33573
LSBlack beltVerified
4 week(s) ago
Hey, just to add to this thread, if anyone is interested, I updated my profile page with all my videos using the Ecological/Constraints-Led Approach and put all the links of the podcasts I have been on discussing this I'm not looking to debate about the theory and methods here 😂 just providing resources if you're interested in how I have interpreted and applied it over the years and I'm still in the process of developing my practice https://www.beltchecker.c[...]p?id=33573
I conveniently read this as: I DEFINITLY want a debate about the theory and the methods here!
HLPurple beltVerified
4 week(s) ago
I wrote few articles about how I see learning movement or motor skill. Here are links.
1. What Changes When a Movement Skill Is Learned?
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815719
https://zenodo.org/records/22815720
A2 — Perception and Action Regulation
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815794
https://zenodo.org/records/22815794
A3 — Designing Practice Tasks
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815844
https://zenodo.org/records/22815844
A4 — Guidance and Feedback in the Learning Situation
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815879
https://zenodo.org/records/22815879
A5 — Practice Across Time and in Different Forms
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815924
https://zenodo.org/records/22815924
A6 — Examining a Professional Conception of Movement Skill Learning and Teaching
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815954
https://zenodo.org/records/22815954
1. What Changes When a Movement Skill Is Learned?
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815719
https://zenodo.org/records/22815720
A2 — Perception and Action Regulation
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815794
https://zenodo.org/records/22815794
A3 — Designing Practice Tasks
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815844
https://zenodo.org/records/22815844
A4 — Guidance and Feedback in the Learning Situation
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815879
https://zenodo.org/records/22815879
A5 — Practice Across Time and in Different Forms
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815924
https://zenodo.org/records/22815924
A6 — Examining a Professional Conception of Movement Skill Learning and Teaching
DOI 10.5281/zenodo.22815954
https://zenodo.org/records/22815954
Edited 4 week(s) ago
HLPurple beltVerified
4 week(s) ago
Here is a short version of articles. https://www.jutsu.fi/Skil[...]oblems.pdf My approach is not ecological or IP. It is just experience from teaching 50+ years. It does not make it perfect, but it could be something to study and discuss. Always room for improvement.
RCBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 day(s) ago
I just did this talk at the Arizona Globetrotters Camp if anyone is interested
https://youtu.be/30SA3EZ-[...]8fq9ucpzSV
https://youtu.be/30SA3EZ-[...]8fq9ucpzSV
ARBlack beltVerified
4 day(s) ago
I just did this talk at the Arizona Globetrotters Camp if anyone is interested https://youtu.be/30SA3EZ-[...]8fq9ucpzSV
Listened to it the other day and added it to my CLA playlist. :)
Edited 4 day(s) ago
RCBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
SPBlack beltPending
1 day(s) ago
I just did this talk at the Arizona Globetrotters Camp if anyone is interested https://youtu.be/30SA3EZ-[...]8fq9ucpzSV
I was there for this live. Rob does a great job.
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
20 hour(s) ago
Never go full ecological.
There's deep irony in that meme. It's supposed to make fun of eco but in the sense that if we look at function only then those knots do a equally good job. Just like in competition - if you win is more important than if your technique is pretty.
And if it indeed is faster and more fun then there is literally not much reason to be traditional.
And if it indeed is faster and more fun then there is literally not much reason to be traditional.
RCBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
19 hour(s) ago
There's deep irony in that meme. It's supposed to make fun of eco but in the sense that if we look at function only then those knots do a equally good job. Just like in competition - if you win is more important than if your technique is pretty. And if it indeed is faster and more fun then there is literally not much reason to be traditional.
You are very wise
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
18 hour(s) ago
You are very wise
I don't know if this was irony or praise because in internet you never know.
But I did learn about Gibson's ecological dynamics around 2005 and have always been a proponent of introducing variability and interference ASAP principle in teaching all sport games (including combat sports).
But I did learn about Gibson's ecological dynamics around 2005 and have always been a proponent of introducing variability and interference ASAP principle in teaching all sport games (including combat sports).
RCBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
17 hour(s) ago
I don't know if this was irony or praise because in internet you never know. But I did learn about Gibson's ecological dynamics around 2005 and have always been a proponent of introducing variability and interference ASAP principle in teaching all sport games (including combat sports).
I was agreeing with you! Good observation of the meme
Sidenote: I saw you were going to be in the coaches house at the Arizona Camp, but then you had a change of plans
I was looking forward to having some discussions from seeing some of your previous comments on the subject, maybe next year!
Sidenote: I saw you were going to be in the coaches house at the Arizona Camp, but then you had a change of plans
I was looking forward to having some discussions from seeing some of your previous comments on the subject, maybe next year!
