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Inconsistency in verification requirements for black belt promotions
11 month(s) ago • 4011 views • 53 replies
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
9 month(s) ago
The Proposal: We need a distinction on the profile for degrees: Type A: Time Served (The Timer) Type B: Community Verified (Evidence uploaded + Community Vote)
This already exists. Anyone who prefer to have their time-based black belt degrees verified by the community, can just choose "I was promoted by someone" and then write "Time served" in the promoter field. That will trigger community verification for the degree.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
9 month(s) ago
Bobby, Fair play. I will stop calling it "your system." 🤝 To be clear: I don't care about the IBJJF. I care about legitimate promotion. 1. The "Friction" Factor My point about Stan Schmidt wasn't about standardized testing. It was about friction. He had to fly to Japan and face the masters. The rank had value because it was hard-fought. A SQL script running at midnight is the exact opposite of hard-fought. 2. My Personal Stance I am currently eligible for my 1st degree right now. I could click the button today. I won't. I will wait until my instructor—who I do not pay—decides I am ready and bestows it. That is the only way it carries weight. 3. The Solution: The Ronin Protocol Since you offered to back me, let's solve Patrick’s "Toxic Gym" issue without resorting to participation trophies. The Proposal: We need a distinction on the profile for degrees: Type A: Time Served (The Timer) Type B: Community Verified (Evidence uploaded + Community Vote) This allows "Ronins" (orphaned students) to be verified by the crowd, rather than just a clock. How do we move this from a forum debate to a formal feature request? Respect, Dalan
I feel like we're going around in circles a little bit here. I think if you feel that receiving a stripe on your black belt for "time served" by a human, as opposed to a computer program, is the only legitimate way to progress in rank, then you should, by all means go and downvote everyone on here who has accepted this type of promotion.
If you don't think the IBJJF's computer time-based promotions are legit for similar reasons, then you should definitely go and downvote everyone who has accepted this type of promotion.
Right now, as Christian pointed out, we already have these two types of promotions, it's just that up until now, everyone seems fine with both types. If you don't like it, then downvoting is a very powerful way of making your opinion known.
Like I said, I'm completely fine with time-based promotions as it seems like it's the only consistent uniform standard in our art, which is different than other martial arts. It seems like you're not really advocating for any other standards other than the degree should be awarded by another human who received their black belt at some point in time (minimum 3 years?) before you did.
Just or of curiosity, what do you do if your instructor forgets your belt's anniversary? Do you remind him? After all, we're "not allowed" to ask for rank. I suppose if you're not planning on promoting anyone to bb yourself, maybe it doesn't matter. I know this is a different question entirely. Just throwing it out there for a little variety.
If you don't think the IBJJF's computer time-based promotions are legit for similar reasons, then you should definitely go and downvote everyone who has accepted this type of promotion.
Right now, as Christian pointed out, we already have these two types of promotions, it's just that up until now, everyone seems fine with both types. If you don't like it, then downvoting is a very powerful way of making your opinion known.
Like I said, I'm completely fine with time-based promotions as it seems like it's the only consistent uniform standard in our art, which is different than other martial arts. It seems like you're not really advocating for any other standards other than the degree should be awarded by another human who received their black belt at some point in time (minimum 3 years?) before you did.
Just or of curiosity, what do you do if your instructor forgets your belt's anniversary? Do you remind him? After all, we're "not allowed" to ask for rank. I suppose if you're not planning on promoting anyone to bb yourself, maybe it doesn't matter. I know this is a different question entirely. Just throwing it out there for a little variety.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
9 month(s) ago
Dalan,
In an attempt to organize your argument in a more concise manner (correct me if I'm wrong) you are saying:
Current beltchecker system: participant has the option of claiming "time served" and is automatically approved. One would have to downvote this promotion if they don't agree.
Proposed (Ronin) system: participant can claim "time served," but it triggers a need to be voted on again, just like if you claim your degree from another human via the current system on beltchecker.
While I'm not an administrator of this site, it seems like that would be a fairly easy modification, all things considered. However, it seems like there would need to be a REASON to make this modification, because as of now, literally none of the thousands of participants on this site have contested it. From what I can tell, you're the first!
Not to go around again to the beginning of the circle, but I think if you began a movement of downvoting "time served" promotions, and enough people agreed with you, this would give the administrators a REASON to change the current system.
Then you and Johan can commiserate the joys of the aftermath of downvotes together.
In an attempt to organize your argument in a more concise manner (correct me if I'm wrong) you are saying:
Current beltchecker system: participant has the option of claiming "time served" and is automatically approved. One would have to downvote this promotion if they don't agree.
Proposed (Ronin) system: participant can claim "time served," but it triggers a need to be voted on again, just like if you claim your degree from another human via the current system on beltchecker.
While I'm not an administrator of this site, it seems like that would be a fairly easy modification, all things considered. However, it seems like there would need to be a REASON to make this modification, because as of now, literally none of the thousands of participants on this site have contested it. From what I can tell, you're the first!
Not to go around again to the beginning of the circle, but I think if you began a movement of downvoting "time served" promotions, and enough people agreed with you, this would give the administrators a REASON to change the current system.
Then you and Johan can commiserate the joys of the aftermath of downvotes together.
PFBlack beltVerified
9 month(s) ago
Bobby, Fair play. I will stop calling it "your system." 🤝 To be clear: I don't care about the IBJJF. I care about legitimate promotion. 1. The "Friction" Factor My point about Stan Schmidt wasn't about standardized testing. It was about friction. He had to fly to Japan and face the masters. The rank had value because it was hard-fought. A SQL script running at midnight is the exact opposite of hard-fought. 2. My Personal Stance I am currently eligible for my 1st degree right now. I could click the button today. I won't. I will wait until my instructor—who I do not pay—decides I am ready and bestows it. That is the only way it carries weight. 3. The Solution: The Ronin Protocol Since you offered to back me, let's solve Patrick’s "Toxic Gym" issue without resorting to participation trophies. The Proposal: We need a distinction on the profile for degrees: Type A: Time Served (The Timer) Type B: Community Verified (Evidence uploaded + Community Vote) This allows "Ronins" (orphaned students) to be verified by the crowd, rather than just a clock. How do we move this from a forum debate to a formal feature request? Respect, Dalan
Some simple solutions you might find less “toxic”.
1. Come to the realization that outside of centralized testing, there will always be an arbitrary nature to promotion. Too fast, too slow, sandbagging, etc.
2. Don’t use IBJJF or Belt Checker. Whether you’re getting promoted due to crossing the palm of your sensei, or your “loyalty” is all the payment needed, whining about people doing it differently than you won’t fix anything.
3. Don’t worry about tape on my belt. I’m sure after the time requirement is satisfied, I pass a referee test, I submit my First Aid/CPR, my academy stays registered, I have approved the rank of teammates, and everything in between that my first degree will mean as much to me via a certificate from Carlos as someone putting finger tape on my belt.
Let’s REALLY look at what the point of contention is- a loosely agreed upon ranking system inspired by a sash worn by Japanese kids swimming denoting “trained” vs “untrained” & a degree system from the board game Go. The belt doesn’t get any blacker and there are several world champions in their respective styles that don’t pursue rank, they are just as much a “master” (if not more) as the belt chaser.
1. Come to the realization that outside of centralized testing, there will always be an arbitrary nature to promotion. Too fast, too slow, sandbagging, etc.
2. Don’t use IBJJF or Belt Checker. Whether you’re getting promoted due to crossing the palm of your sensei, or your “loyalty” is all the payment needed, whining about people doing it differently than you won’t fix anything.
3. Don’t worry about tape on my belt. I’m sure after the time requirement is satisfied, I pass a referee test, I submit my First Aid/CPR, my academy stays registered, I have approved the rank of teammates, and everything in between that my first degree will mean as much to me via a certificate from Carlos as someone putting finger tape on my belt.
Let’s REALLY look at what the point of contention is- a loosely agreed upon ranking system inspired by a sash worn by Japanese kids swimming denoting “trained” vs “untrained” & a degree system from the board game Go. The belt doesn’t get any blacker and there are several world champions in their respective styles that don’t pursue rank, they are just as much a “master” (if not more) as the belt chaser.
DHBlack beltVerified
8 month(s) ago
And Christian, your defence of "IBJJF does it too" is actually my point. BJJ existed for decades before the IBJJF was founded in 1994. The Gracies were promoting students long before Carlos Jr created his money machine. So when you benchmark your system against theirs and say "we're just as good but free" - you're not innovating. You're just copying a broken system and removing the price tag. That's not disruption; that's a race to the bottom. If your standard for legitimacy is "slightly less corrupt than the IBJJF," you've already lost. The goal shouldn't be to match their low bar - it should be to restore what promotion meant before organisations turned it into a revenue stream.
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
Hi guys, In my opinion, the current BeltChecker system, once you hit Black Belt, has zero integrity and there are serious double standards. If I click a button that the website offers me, I get my promotion straight away, no questions asked. If my actual instructor promotes me with photographic evidence, I have to go through an entire verification process. That does not make sense. This crucial difference could make someone who's never trained for the last 10 years a 3rd degree black belt by just clicking a button. Bobby, you asked what happens if my instructor forgets my anniversary. The answer: nothing. I don't remind him. I don't ask. If he never promotes me again, I'm still a black belt under Rodney King, trained in South Africa's original BJJ lineage under Rigan Machado. For me that's enough. I REALLY don't need another stripe on my belt unless it was actually bestowed upon me by Rodney - my coach. And I'm not alone - I know several black belts under Rodney who could have clicked that button years ago, or could have easily changed lineage to get promoted elsewhere. They didn't. They chose to wait. That's integrity. Some of the guys I know who've clicked the button have told me that they really don't care and would take all the stripes off their belt because they actually don't matter - but yet they still put the stripe on their belt. So it obviously does matter to them. I'm an Old Edwardian - King Edward VII School, Johannesburg (you might have to look that up) and some of the world's most famous sportsmen, politicians, businessmen and artists walked those exact same halls. We're talking about golfing legend Gary Player, Springbok great Bryan Habana, billionaire Sir Donald Gordon, and—crucially for the point I'm making—the father of South African Karate himself, Stan Schmidt. We have a cenotaph in the quad honouring Old Boys who died in two World Wars. When Old Edwardians return, they walk past that memorial in their blazers, watched by the next generation. Nobody clicks a button to earn that. The community recognises you - or it doesn't. That's what shaped my view: legacy is earned, witnessed, and bestowed. Not scheduled. You've chosen a different path. I respect your right to walk it. I just won't be walking it with you. I'll keep training. My instructor will promote me when he decides I'm ready. No timer required. Maybe I'll start beltclicker.com - at least the name would be honest. Thanks for the debate. Dalan
Not adhering to IBJJF standards but to more-than standards would be very much accepted by the wider community!
The current belt system is from 1967 and CBJJ was founded in 1993 (some sources say 1994) and was (is?) in many ways the same entity as IBJJF, which was officially founded in 2002 (with same belt criteria as CBJJ).
So from 1967, that's 26 years prior to CBJJ/IBJJF and the most recent 34 years or so with the CBJJ/IBJJF criteria (including time served for BB degrees) being very dominant, also outside of CBJJ/IBJJF. Except for Craig Kukuk, I don't thing there's a single non-brazilian promoted to BB before CBJJ was formed. So it's really not very strange that the time-served-criteria of CBJJ/IBJJF has stuck since. But I have at several occasions argued that the CBJJ/IBJJF criteria, not least 2:nd degree BB to promote someone else to BB, really isn't more strict than previous standards, where it seems to have been only very senior BB:s who promoted (not least judging by the very limited number of BB:s from the 80:s or earlier which can be seen in the lineages we see today - does anyone's lineage, tracked back to 80:s or earlier, show a junior black belt?). So arguments for using less-than criteria while pointing to the time before CBJJ/IBJJF, I think are weak. But more-than criteria is another matter, while difficult to change practices in the wider community.
Also, evaluating merits for BB degrees has power relations which the time-based system (at least through Beltchecker) does not. So we have a trade off there and we unfortunately see quite a lot of falling outs in BJJ, even between BB and 2:nd degree. At times connected to wanting to lock someone in and milk money. And even as a 3:rd degree BB, it's challenging enough to do evaluations for BB with no degrees. What criteria would I have for 1:st, 2:nd and 3:rd? Also, once I've got someone up to BB, it's long over due for them to have found their own specialized game which they can teach and develop me in! If there aren't areas in which they exceed me by then, I have failed.
With "ronin BB:s", without their own instructor, I can see them wanting to show the two stripes on promotion photos with students. But above that (and even the first two stripes) feels like a weird thing to put yourself on the belt, whether through Beltchecker or IBJJF. Even if I don't think I've ever down voted it, I respect more the integrity of not striping your own belt (claiming the stripes on beltchecker to increase vote power but not putting the physical stripes on is another matter). A stripe with a senior BB:s name connected to it looks much better, even if it's just a friend BB who did the honors for you. So I really don't find it odd that having a name attached to the promotion requires a re-verification while nameless time-served-stripes does not. Also, not all names are equal. Being promoted to a BB degree by someone with an unverifiable lineage compared to someone with excellent and easily verifiable lineage compared to someone with a name which we all recognize. Where in the latter case, I might even want to see evidence if none of the previous degrees was from that well known person.
Would be interesting to hear more about what you have all found regarding how promotions worked 1967-1992!
The current belt system is from 1967 and CBJJ was founded in 1993 (some sources say 1994) and was (is?) in many ways the same entity as IBJJF, which was officially founded in 2002 (with same belt criteria as CBJJ).
So from 1967, that's 26 years prior to CBJJ/IBJJF and the most recent 34 years or so with the CBJJ/IBJJF criteria (including time served for BB degrees) being very dominant, also outside of CBJJ/IBJJF. Except for Craig Kukuk, I don't thing there's a single non-brazilian promoted to BB before CBJJ was formed. So it's really not very strange that the time-served-criteria of CBJJ/IBJJF has stuck since. But I have at several occasions argued that the CBJJ/IBJJF criteria, not least 2:nd degree BB to promote someone else to BB, really isn't more strict than previous standards, where it seems to have been only very senior BB:s who promoted (not least judging by the very limited number of BB:s from the 80:s or earlier which can be seen in the lineages we see today - does anyone's lineage, tracked back to 80:s or earlier, show a junior black belt?). So arguments for using less-than criteria while pointing to the time before CBJJ/IBJJF, I think are weak. But more-than criteria is another matter, while difficult to change practices in the wider community.
Also, evaluating merits for BB degrees has power relations which the time-based system (at least through Beltchecker) does not. So we have a trade off there and we unfortunately see quite a lot of falling outs in BJJ, even between BB and 2:nd degree. At times connected to wanting to lock someone in and milk money. And even as a 3:rd degree BB, it's challenging enough to do evaluations for BB with no degrees. What criteria would I have for 1:st, 2:nd and 3:rd? Also, once I've got someone up to BB, it's long over due for them to have found their own specialized game which they can teach and develop me in! If there aren't areas in which they exceed me by then, I have failed.
With "ronin BB:s", without their own instructor, I can see them wanting to show the two stripes on promotion photos with students. But above that (and even the first two stripes) feels like a weird thing to put yourself on the belt, whether through Beltchecker or IBJJF. Even if I don't think I've ever down voted it, I respect more the integrity of not striping your own belt (claiming the stripes on beltchecker to increase vote power but not putting the physical stripes on is another matter). A stripe with a senior BB:s name connected to it looks much better, even if it's just a friend BB who did the honors for you. So I really don't find it odd that having a name attached to the promotion requires a re-verification while nameless time-served-stripes does not. Also, not all names are equal. Being promoted to a BB degree by someone with an unverifiable lineage compared to someone with excellent and easily verifiable lineage compared to someone with a name which we all recognize. Where in the latter case, I might even want to see evidence if none of the previous degrees was from that well known person.
Would be interesting to hear more about what you have all found regarding how promotions worked 1967-1992!
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
I'm still a black belt under Rodney King
You're still a black belt under Rodney King regardless of if you get stripes afterward or not, or if you receive the stripes from a person or a robot.
I'm not sure why you're not downvoting all these non-integrity-having profiles right now. Maybe all those famous people you listed off can help your inner strength?
Bestow upon us your downvotes!
I'm not sure why you're not downvoting all these non-integrity-having profiles right now. Maybe all those famous people you listed off can help your inner strength?
Bestow upon us your downvotes!
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
But above that (and even the first two stripes) feels like a weird thing to put yourself on the belt, whether through Beltchecker or IBJJF.
I also think putting stripes on your belt yourself is a little weird and I'll probably never do it.
Ultimately, after your 2nd degree, stripes begin to be really irrelevant. Like counting rings on a tree to see how old it is, but that's about it.
Ultimately, after your 2nd degree, stripes begin to be really irrelevant. Like counting rings on a tree to see how old it is, but that's about it.
JCPurple beltVerified
8 month(s) ago
Ultimately, after your 2nd degree, stripes begin to be really irrelevant. Like counting rings on a tree to see how old it is, but that's about it.
Except for one thing. The objective of every leader should be to nurture more leaders. If stripes after 2nd degree are irrelevant then we have no way to promote others to 2nd degree other than the infamous 'time served' method. If one's goal is simply to grow more followers there is no need to promote them to a level where they can promote their own black belts, but if the goal is to broaden the sport you need an avenue to get them to 2nd degree which means you should have a promoting instructor with a higher degree although I don't recall that being explicitly stated in the IBJJF rules. I think their only criteria is to keep paying them money for the prescribed period of time.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
I think their only criteria is to keep paying them money for the prescribed period of time.
There's (slightly) more to it than that. I've written about this before, in another thread I think.
With the IBJJF's certification program, at least as I understand it, you are promoted through their organization, and it's approved by Carlos Gracie Jr., who is the person who signs your certificate.
I know there was a thread earlier where someone asked if gyms, as opposed to humans, can promote people. I wonder how people feel about organizations promoting people?
Anyway, this is almost exactly the same process I have to go through for my Judo rankings: I provide documentation for my next belt (matches I've won, kata clinics I've attended, classes I teach, etc.) and then it's approved by USA Judo, then they send me a certificate signed by whoever is in charge of that department (usually a high-profile, high-ranking judoka).
The big differences between the two is, with USA Judo, my money goes toward promoting judo, supporting team USA athletes, etc, whereas with IBJJF, my money just goes into Carlinhos' pockets. The other difference is that with Judo, I actually have to be engaging in some Judo-related activities.
With the IBJJF's certification program, at least as I understand it, you are promoted through their organization, and it's approved by Carlos Gracie Jr., who is the person who signs your certificate.
I know there was a thread earlier where someone asked if gyms, as opposed to humans, can promote people. I wonder how people feel about organizations promoting people?
Anyway, this is almost exactly the same process I have to go through for my Judo rankings: I provide documentation for my next belt (matches I've won, kata clinics I've attended, classes I teach, etc.) and then it's approved by USA Judo, then they send me a certificate signed by whoever is in charge of that department (usually a high-profile, high-ranking judoka).
The big differences between the two is, with USA Judo, my money goes toward promoting judo, supporting team USA athletes, etc, whereas with IBJJF, my money just goes into Carlinhos' pockets. The other difference is that with Judo, I actually have to be engaging in some Judo-related activities.
JCPurple beltVerified
8 month(s) ago
There's (slightly) more to it than that. I've written about this before, in another thread I think. With the IBJJF's certification program, at least as I understand it, you are promoted through their organization, and it's approved by Carlos Gracie Jr., who is the person who signs your certificate. I know there was a thread earlier where someone asked if gyms, as opposed to humans, can promote people. I wonder how people feel about organizations promoting people? Anyway, this is almost exactly the same process I have to go through for my Judo rankings: I provide documentation for my next belt (matches I've won, kata clinics I've attended, classes I teach, etc.) and then it's approved by USA Judo, then they send me a certificate signed by whoever is in charge of that department (usually a high-profile, high-ranking judoka). The big differences between the two is, with USA Judo, my money goes toward promoting judo, supporting team USA athletes, etc, whereas with IBJJF, my money just goes into Carlinhos' pockets. The other difference is that with Judo, I actually have to be engaging in some Judo-related activities.
That's the process; I'm talking about the criteria. The rule book literally says serve your time and prove activity by at least one of the following methods. The first method listed is to keep paying them money.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
That's the process; I'm talking about the criteria. The rule book literally says serve your time and prove activity by at least one of the following methods. The first method listed is to keep paying them money.
Yes, I posted on this earlier in this thread (post #6): all 7 ways of "proving activity" involve the IBJJF getting paid.
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
Except for one thing. The objective of every leader should be to nurture more leaders. If stripes after 2nd degree are irrelevant then we have no way to promote others to 2nd degree other than the infamous 'time served' method. If one's goal is simply to grow more followers there is no need to promote them to a level where they can promote their own black belts, but if the goal is to broaden the sport you need an avenue to get them to 2nd degree which means you should have a promoting instructor with a higher degree although I don't recall that being explicitly stated in the IBJJF rules. I think their only criteria is to keep paying them money for the prescribed period of time.
How are you able to promote 9:th degrees with no 10:th degrees? And when all 9:th degrees promoted by Helio are dead, who should promote 8:th degrees? And so on.
Preferably, you have an instructor much senior to you who can award the degrees, but at least for the coral belts and red belt, it seems like common practice that same can promote to same. My own instructor has done it, so I have no problem verifying those promotions to BB degrees. And always "worth more" than a no name attached time served promotion from Beltchecker, IBJJF, your team or whatever.
Preferably, you have an instructor much senior to you who can award the degrees, but at least for the coral belts and red belt, it seems like common practice that same can promote to same. My own instructor has done it, so I have no problem verifying those promotions to BB degrees. And always "worth more" than a no name attached time served promotion from Beltchecker, IBJJF, your team or whatever.
PFBlack beltVerified
8 month(s) ago
How are you able to promote 9:th degrees with no 10:th degrees? And when all 9:th degrees promoted by Helio are dead, who should promote 8:th degrees? And so on. Preferably, you have an instructor much senior to you who can award the degrees, but at least for the coral belts and red belt, it seems like common practice that same can promote to same. My own instructor has done it, so I have no problem verifying those promotions to BB degrees. And always "worth more" than a no name attached time served promotion from Beltchecker, IBJJF, your team or whatever.
Eventually this does top out.
Who promotes people to 10th Dan at the Kodokan?…other 10th dans.
All the bells, whistles, and candy cane belts don’t make it anything more than Jiu Jitsu.
Obviously we all want Jiu Jitsu to remain ideal and to have a touch of elitism. Ultimately, we all need to attain black belt through someone legitimate (does their dan grade matter?..that’s another discussion). But everything after black is very much decorative or done so with the foresight of needing specific dan grades for promoting others, coaching etc.
In a perfect world, there would be grading boards that don’t charge you exorbitant fees to test, and there would be a written in stone standard (à la Judo). But we don’t live in that world, and we will take different paths to the same route.
Who promotes people to 10th Dan at the Kodokan?…other 10th dans.
All the bells, whistles, and candy cane belts don’t make it anything more than Jiu Jitsu.
Obviously we all want Jiu Jitsu to remain ideal and to have a touch of elitism. Ultimately, we all need to attain black belt through someone legitimate (does their dan grade matter?..that’s another discussion). But everything after black is very much decorative or done so with the foresight of needing specific dan grades for promoting others, coaching etc.
In a perfect world, there would be grading boards that don’t charge you exorbitant fees to test, and there would be a written in stone standard (à la Judo). But we don’t live in that world, and we will take different paths to the same route.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
In a perfect world, there would be grading boards that don’t charge you exorbitant fees to test, and there would be a written in stone standard (à la Judo). But we don’t live in that world, and we will take different paths to the same route.
There are upsides and downsides to this, but I think our best shot at evolving into the most impartial version of something like this is through this site.
JCPurple beltVerified
8 month(s) ago
How are you able to promote 9:th degrees with no 10:th degrees? And when all 9:th degrees promoted by Helio are dead, who should promote 8:th degrees? And so on. Preferably, you have an instructor much senior to you who can award the degrees, but at least for the coral belts and red belt, it seems like common practice that same can promote to same. My own instructor has done it, so I have no problem verifying those promotions to BB degrees. And always "worth more" than a no name attached time served promotion from Beltchecker, IBJJF, your team or whatever.
Rules are written because they are needed by the majority, not because they are needed by the 0.1%. There comes a point that you just take care of business and don't worry about it.
WPinkVerifiedPlanet Earth
1 week(s) ago
Hi Samuel, yes. A new profile picture doesn't touch your votes, but a rank change does: everyone who has voted for you gets a notification asking them to confirm the new rank. Until they confirm, their vote doesn't count towards your points, so you may see the number drop for a while and come back as people confirm.
RGBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 day(s) ago
There is no mystical magic regarding coral belts and red belts? As someone who trained directly under a coral belt since white belt. He's not a magic wizard. (though some of his techniques may feel like wizardry lol). He's a man who has done jiu jitsu for a long long time. Degrees are based on time brother. Doesn't matter who you affiliate with, or who you give your money to. Degrees are just old man survival stripes, they hold little to no meaning other than how long you've been a black belt. There's no belt test in any academy for your black belt degrees, and the 7th degree coral belt doesn't require you to walk on water. Whether community based, button clicked, or paying the IBJJF, it's just based on time.
ARBlack beltVerified
1 day(s) ago
France is running the experiment Patrick describes.
Since September 1st, 2026, France Judo (FFJDA), the federation the French sports ministry put in charge of BJJ, has run an official dan exam for BJJ. For 1st degree, it has four units:
- UV1, set form: BJJ self-defense series, 12 techniques, demonstrated in front of a panel
- UV2, technique: 10 techniques from the French BJJ syllabus, picked by the panel on the day
- UV3, effectiveness: competition points against same-rank or higher opponents. A submission is worth 10, a win by 7+ points is worth 7. You need 100 points in total, or 5 straight wins in one event, or a mix of points and set drills. Candidates aged 40+ can skip the competition part.
- UV4, involvement: half a day as a referee or table official
Time still counts: you need at least one year at brown belt and must be 15 or older before the 1st degree is registered.
That settles part of what this thread is about. A rank no longer rests on one person's word, and nobody pays a private league to keep their rank on file. You have to show the techniques, prove them against resisting opponents, and give some time back to the sport.
It also shows the cost. A lot of long-time practitioners, mostly from the other French federation (CFJJB), pushed back hard. In the official system, their lineage and their instructors' promotions count for less than before. Some of that is turf defense, and some of it is a fair question about who designed the syllabus.
Two side effects people outside France might not expect:
- the plain black belt doesn't exist in that system, you go straight to 1st degree
- black belts from other organizations, promoted before September 2026, can apply for equivalence until 2030
So, to Ryan's point: in France, time is still required, but it's no longer enough. You also have to pass the exam. Whether that guarantee is worth the conflict it created is exactly what France is arguing about right now.
Since September 1st, 2026, France Judo (FFJDA), the federation the French sports ministry put in charge of BJJ, has run an official dan exam for BJJ. For 1st degree, it has four units:
- UV1, set form: BJJ self-defense series, 12 techniques, demonstrated in front of a panel
- UV2, technique: 10 techniques from the French BJJ syllabus, picked by the panel on the day
- UV3, effectiveness: competition points against same-rank or higher opponents. A submission is worth 10, a win by 7+ points is worth 7. You need 100 points in total, or 5 straight wins in one event, or a mix of points and set drills. Candidates aged 40+ can skip the competition part.
- UV4, involvement: half a day as a referee or table official
Time still counts: you need at least one year at brown belt and must be 15 or older before the 1st degree is registered.
That settles part of what this thread is about. A rank no longer rests on one person's word, and nobody pays a private league to keep their rank on file. You have to show the techniques, prove them against resisting opponents, and give some time back to the sport.
It also shows the cost. A lot of long-time practitioners, mostly from the other French federation (CFJJB), pushed back hard. In the official system, their lineage and their instructors' promotions count for less than before. Some of that is turf defense, and some of it is a fair question about who designed the syllabus.
Two side effects people outside France might not expect:
- the plain black belt doesn't exist in that system, you go straight to 1st degree
- black belts from other organizations, promoted before September 2026, can apply for equivalence until 2030
So, to Ryan's point: in France, time is still required, but it's no longer enough. You also have to pass the exam. Whether that guarantee is worth the conflict it created is exactly what France is arguing about right now.
Edited 1 day(s) ago
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
1 day(s) ago
For 1st degree, it has four units: - UV1, set form: BJJ self-defense series, 12 techniques, demonstrated in front of a panel - UV2, technique: 10 techniques from the French BJJ syllabus, picked by the panel on the day - UV3, effectiveness: competition points against same-rank or higher opponents. A submission is worth 10, a win by 7+ points is worth 7. You need 100 points in total, or 5 straight wins in one event, or a mix of points and set drills. Candidates aged 40+ can skip the competition part. - UV4, involvement: half a day as a referee or table official Time still counts: you need at least one year at brown belt and must be 15 or older before the 1st degree is registered.
Wow. So many questions.
1) How do they determine "BJJ self-defense series," and who is on the panel?
2) Who is in charge of what is on the French BJJ syllabus?
3) What competitions are acceptable: Only IBJJF? Do sub-only tournaments count for something? Can I hold a competition in my garage and that counts?
4) Are they really awarding black belts, and 1st degree black belts for that matter, to 15-year-olds?
I suppose that obviously these requirements are significantly more stringent than the currently accepted time-based "system" we have now, but is it really better?
Seems like FFJDA is fairly out of touch with the greater BJJ community.
1) How do they determine "BJJ self-defense series," and who is on the panel?
2) Who is in charge of what is on the French BJJ syllabus?
3) What competitions are acceptable: Only IBJJF? Do sub-only tournaments count for something? Can I hold a competition in my garage and that counts?
4) Are they really awarding black belts, and 1st degree black belts for that matter, to 15-year-olds?
I suppose that obviously these requirements are significantly more stringent than the currently accepted time-based "system" we have now, but is it really better?
Seems like FFJDA is fairly out of touch with the greater BJJ community.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
22 hour(s) ago
In general my observation in society regarding vocational licenses has been that stricter rules do not stop bad actors but make life more complicated for good actors.
Unless very old standardised systems like medicine and law and even then it's complicated.
If someone ever promotes me to any new belt/stripe I'm claiming still time served because I like my load of verification points many of them from people I know and like 😁
Unless very old standardised systems like medicine and law and even then it's complicated.
If someone ever promotes me to any new belt/stripe I'm claiming still time served because I like my load of verification points many of them from people I know and like 😁
PFBlack beltVerified
20 hour(s) ago
France is running the experiment Patrick describes. Since September 1st, 2026, France Judo (FFJDA), the federation the French sports ministry put in charge of BJJ, has run an official dan exam for BJJ. For 1st degree, it has four units: - UV1, set form: BJJ self-defense series, 12 techniques, demonstrated in front of a panel - UV2, technique: 10 techniques from the French BJJ syllabus, picked by the panel on the day - UV3, effectiveness: competition points against same-rank or higher opponents. A submission is worth 10, a win by 7+ points is worth 7. You need 100 points in total, or 5 straight wins in one event, or a mix of points and set drills. Candidates aged 40+ can skip the competition part. - UV4, involvement: half a day as a referee or table official Time still counts: you need at least one year at brown belt and must be 15 or older before the 1st degree is registered. That settles part of what this thread is about. A rank no longer rests on one person's word, and nobody pays a private league to keep their rank on file. You have to show the techniques, prove them against resisting opponents, and give some time back to the sport. It also shows the cost. A lot of long-time practitioners, mostly from the other French federation (CFJJB), pushed back hard. In the official system, their lineage and their instructors' promotions count for less than before. Some of that is turf defense, and some of it is a fair question about who designed the syllabus. Two side effects people outside France might not expect: - the plain black belt doesn't exist in that system, you go straight to 1st degree - black belts from other organizations, promoted before September 2026, can apply for equivalence until 2030 So, to Ryan's point: in France, time is still required, but it's no longer enough. You also have to pass the exam. Whether that guarantee is worth the conflict it created is exactly what France is arguing about right now.
I have no doubt it will be successful, as we have seen how France has standardized and excelled at Taekwondo and Judo.
ARBlack beltVerified
20 hour(s) ago
Fair questions, Bobby. Here's what the 2026/2027 rulebook says.
1. The panel. For 1st to 4th degree, at least two judges. Each one has to be a BJJ 2nd degree minimum and outrank the candidate (same rank only as an exception). They go through a regional judges' course, sit as trainees on two exams first, and need 12 hours of continuing education every season. A judge has to step aside when the candidate is from their own club or is one of their students.
2. The syllabus. It comes from the federation's national BJJ commission, and it hasn't been published yet, so I can't tell you what's in it. The rulebook only sets the format: for 1st degree, you show the first self-defense series (12 techniques), then 10 techniques from the syllabus picked by the panel. Two misses allowed.
3. Competitions. I should have been clearer on this one. Points come from two places:
- Grading fights (shiai). The federation runs them only for grading. Each session gives you 5 fights. There's no ranking, no podium and no medal: you fight to score points toward your next rank. Win all 5 with at least 44 points, and the unit is done in a single session.
- The federation's own BJJ competitions. There are two circuits. The Open circuit runs under IBJJF rules, with divisions by belt, weight and age. The Elite circuit only has weight divisions, and it's the way into the international circuit of the JJIF (Ju-Jitsu International Federation, https://www.ju-jitsu.sport/). The level there is very high: it's national teams, and ne-waza is part of the Asian Games and the World Games, so countries like Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Thailand or Korea field strong athletes you rarely see on the IBJJF circuit.
Events run by other organizations, IBJJF included, only count if they're on the federation's reference list or approved by its national grading commission. Your garage won't make the cut, and neither will a sub-only event without that approval. Submission win = 10 points, win by 7+ points = 7, and only against the same rank or higher.
4. Age. On paper, 15 is the minimum to have a 1st degree registered, after at least one year at brown. The rule is the same in all four disciplines the federation runs. The texts don't set a minimum age for brown belt in BJJ yet. And a 15-year-old can't just sign up: the club decides whether to put a student forward for the exam, and nobody can register on their own. So the instructor still decides when someone is ready, and the exam checks that call. It sounds young, but a kid who started at 4 has trained 11 years by 15. That's about what most adults put in before they reach black belt.
Is it better? People criticize it in France too, and I understand the "out of touch" feeling. But the model has a track record: French judo has graded this way for decades, with the same units, panels and grading fights. For BJJ, the content is new. The method isn't.
And it brings something no private league can offer. Through the federation, BJJ competitors in France can now get official high-level athlete status from the state. That means financial support, and the state pays into their pension. They can also compete at the World Games, the multi-sport event for non-Olympic sports.
From my experience, the four units work as a filter. They put in writing the minimum a black belt has to show, and I think that's a very good thing. What's left is for the federation and the judges to find the right balance between merit and access. Yes, in France you can get a judo black belt at 15. But some people also stay brown for a long time, because they don't pass the exam either.
It also settles the "time served" question this thread started with. Every degree up to 4th means the same four units again, with harder content each time, and 5th degree goes through a national panel. There's no BJJ degree above 5th in France for now. A special commission handles high grades, and as far as I know, the first generation of French BJJ black belts is at 5th degree at most anyway. Time only makes you eligible. If you stop getting involved after black belt, you stay 1st degree. Only involvement in the sport moves you up.
To the post above: agreed, rules add paperwork for honest people. What this one does stop is self-promotion and paying to keep a rank on file. You can't get a 1st degree without standing in front of judges and winning on the mat.
P.S. For anyone curious about the two international circuits, here's who wins what:
- IBJJF World Championship 2025: of the 20 black belt titles (men and women, weight classes and absolute), Brazil took 17, the USA 2 and Poland 1.
- JJIF at the 2026 Asian Games (Nagoya): 26 countries entered. The UAE led the medal table (7), ahead of Kazakhstan (6), Japan (4), South Korea (4) and Thailand (3).
- JJIF at the 2025 World Games: athletes from 25 countries won medals, with titles for France, Korea, Kazakhstan, Israel, the UAE, Belgium and others.
Different formats: IBJJF athletes enter under their team, JJIF athletes under their national flag. But it shows two very different maps of the sport.
The JJIF is also a WADA signatory, so drug testing is part of the deal at its events. Make of that what you will. 😉
1. The panel. For 1st to 4th degree, at least two judges. Each one has to be a BJJ 2nd degree minimum and outrank the candidate (same rank only as an exception). They go through a regional judges' course, sit as trainees on two exams first, and need 12 hours of continuing education every season. A judge has to step aside when the candidate is from their own club or is one of their students.
2. The syllabus. It comes from the federation's national BJJ commission, and it hasn't been published yet, so I can't tell you what's in it. The rulebook only sets the format: for 1st degree, you show the first self-defense series (12 techniques), then 10 techniques from the syllabus picked by the panel. Two misses allowed.
3. Competitions. I should have been clearer on this one. Points come from two places:
- Grading fights (shiai). The federation runs them only for grading. Each session gives you 5 fights. There's no ranking, no podium and no medal: you fight to score points toward your next rank. Win all 5 with at least 44 points, and the unit is done in a single session.
- The federation's own BJJ competitions. There are two circuits. The Open circuit runs under IBJJF rules, with divisions by belt, weight and age. The Elite circuit only has weight divisions, and it's the way into the international circuit of the JJIF (Ju-Jitsu International Federation, https://www.ju-jitsu.sport/). The level there is very high: it's national teams, and ne-waza is part of the Asian Games and the World Games, so countries like Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Thailand or Korea field strong athletes you rarely see on the IBJJF circuit.
Events run by other organizations, IBJJF included, only count if they're on the federation's reference list or approved by its national grading commission. Your garage won't make the cut, and neither will a sub-only event without that approval. Submission win = 10 points, win by 7+ points = 7, and only against the same rank or higher.
4. Age. On paper, 15 is the minimum to have a 1st degree registered, after at least one year at brown. The rule is the same in all four disciplines the federation runs. The texts don't set a minimum age for brown belt in BJJ yet. And a 15-year-old can't just sign up: the club decides whether to put a student forward for the exam, and nobody can register on their own. So the instructor still decides when someone is ready, and the exam checks that call. It sounds young, but a kid who started at 4 has trained 11 years by 15. That's about what most adults put in before they reach black belt.
Is it better? People criticize it in France too, and I understand the "out of touch" feeling. But the model has a track record: French judo has graded this way for decades, with the same units, panels and grading fights. For BJJ, the content is new. The method isn't.
And it brings something no private league can offer. Through the federation, BJJ competitors in France can now get official high-level athlete status from the state. That means financial support, and the state pays into their pension. They can also compete at the World Games, the multi-sport event for non-Olympic sports.
From my experience, the four units work as a filter. They put in writing the minimum a black belt has to show, and I think that's a very good thing. What's left is for the federation and the judges to find the right balance between merit and access. Yes, in France you can get a judo black belt at 15. But some people also stay brown for a long time, because they don't pass the exam either.
It also settles the "time served" question this thread started with. Every degree up to 4th means the same four units again, with harder content each time, and 5th degree goes through a national panel. There's no BJJ degree above 5th in France for now. A special commission handles high grades, and as far as I know, the first generation of French BJJ black belts is at 5th degree at most anyway. Time only makes you eligible. If you stop getting involved after black belt, you stay 1st degree. Only involvement in the sport moves you up.
To the post above: agreed, rules add paperwork for honest people. What this one does stop is self-promotion and paying to keep a rank on file. You can't get a 1st degree without standing in front of judges and winning on the mat.
P.S. For anyone curious about the two international circuits, here's who wins what:
- IBJJF World Championship 2025: of the 20 black belt titles (men and women, weight classes and absolute), Brazil took 17, the USA 2 and Poland 1.
- JJIF at the 2026 Asian Games (Nagoya): 26 countries entered. The UAE led the medal table (7), ahead of Kazakhstan (6), Japan (4), South Korea (4) and Thailand (3).
- JJIF at the 2025 World Games: athletes from 25 countries won medals, with titles for France, Korea, Kazakhstan, Israel, the UAE, Belgium and others.
Different formats: IBJJF athletes enter under their team, JJIF athletes under their national flag. But it shows two very different maps of the sport.
The JJIF is also a WADA signatory, so drug testing is part of the deal at its events. Make of that what you will. 😉
