Ok Carlos, I stand corrected then. Obviously I have not gone through said process myself, but this was my understanding based on discussions with people who have, and IBJJF’s publicly stated criteria.

So in order to apply for a 3rd degree one has to have a 4th degree to approve it, and so forth? Which gets progressively more challenging as further degrees require more time than the few first ones, unless one’s academy is affiliated with some long-standing (essentially Brazilian) team. Which I guess is the grand scheme all along.

“ That is not correct. All black belt promotions require the signoff of a higher black belt. IF this forum had a way of posting pics i'd show you.”

You’re incorrect. I just asked IBJJF two days ago and they confirmed by email that they promote black belt degrees purely by time and it is not necessary to have a signature from a professor for this. Signature is only required for the actual black belt promotion, not for degrees.

This is the email they sent me:

“ Time for degrees is based on your active years of black belt registration with IBJJF.

The professor signature is only needed if you want his signature on your certificate.

Please let us know if you have any questions.”

Christian, yes, this was exactly my understanding as well.

Christian, in the first place, that is a very recent change to IBJJF policy, subject to be changed back to require a signature at any time.

For example, while I was earning my first three degrees on my Black Belt, the rule with the IBJJF, and the Confederation of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil, was the signature of the promoting professor was required for each black belt degree promotion.

And the rationale for the reason rule change was to account for the many business break ups and branch offs and splits that have recently occurred within the major teams,

where a black belt splitting off from the previous team who was also previously certified with the IBJJF as a black belt, was not stranded at their current rank merely because they chose to form their own academy or own team, and their prior instructor was no longer speaking to them because of the split.

My understanding is the same as WIlliam stated and they also told me during Worlds that it was subject to be changed back. I think depending on time served within the IBJJF is a risky proposal at best.....but then again thats just my opinion.

Ok yeah I don’t know anything about the rationale behind or chances of it being changed again, but regardless, at the moment it is possible without signature, as I had just had confirmed from IBJJF staff two days ago

I just did this a few weeks ago, and they accepted my ranks, my background i think was about 14 bucks? Have to have a current CPR certification, and have to attend a ref course.

They accepted everything, however i live in VT and there is never a ref course nearby. I mentioned this to them via email and they are in the process of having an online ref certification set up, they said it wouldn't be soon however. They suggested i fly to a ref course and get that done if i wanted to be "certified".

The fee is $400 with the $150 per year as was said above.

Sucks cause i have two jobs and i teach, have a family and def not loaded with cash lol. So flying out for a ref course, just to be "certified" i can't justify at the moment. Sounds like most people who can't get to a ref course are SOL.

They tend to release the dates of the ref and rules courses are very short notice as well, which makes flying a more expensive proposition, and difficult to make arrangements.

That is always a bit of a bummer, and frustrating.

It's had to be a 3rd degree who can promote for quite a few years now it's not recent... I've also been told by someone quite high up that it will definitely change to 4th degree quite soon as well.

3rd degree only requires for “provisional” black belts. 2nd degree can do it if the person has been in the system (paying) as colored belts.

Ah so maybe its changed again... I went through all those about 2 years ago getting my belt registered and I had been in the system so was pretty easy but my coach had never registered his so it was hard work and he had to go as provisional (which was amusing) luckily we had a coral belt sign it all off!

It's a mine field alright

Same as Jay Pages.

The current system (BB degrees possible without a signature, as recently verified by the IBJJF to Christian) is great for more remote scenes, like Finland, where it allows independence from the affiliation scheme. (We are not too keen on affiliations here.) No doubt IBJJF has made it so because it brings in money more easily, but when they realize the effect, I'm afraid they might pull it back, as William & Carlos have suspected. We have a strong competition scene so unfortunately having IBJJF-approved belts and promotions is a must to most gyms.

The problem I ran into with certifying my BB with the IBJJF was that I received my BB in 2016 but did not go through the IBJJF process until 2018, a mere 2 yrs later...Since I did not immediately certify I am forever 2 yrs behind, I received my First Degree this past year in 2019 on my 3 yr anniversary from my Professor, however the IBJJF doesn’t recognize my BB from 2016 only from the initial certification date in 2018 even though I had paid the 2 prior years for the BB membership card.

It’s a money grab man, whatever u are awarded should be ur rank.

Michael DesRosiers,

I never did see a coin with just one side.

Just food for thought.

You have a legit instructor awarding u a rank, but ibjjf won’t recognize because they didn’t attend a “ref seminar”?

Yea that’s a money grab

Point of trivia, Michael DesRosiers,

for competitors, I of course try to help competitors build games of advantage, that play to their strengths.

Often fairly narrow games of specialization, tailored to them, as individual athletes.

But, for recreational players, or promotions based on teaching ability or teaching potential

-Because as Mifune Sensei said, promotions can be based on competitive ability, ability to teach, or great service / sacrifice for the art (usually meaning decades of service or after your death)-

I often ask players to practice and learn an area they would never choose on their own.

Broccoli without cheese, if you will, because it is good for you,

and because we must, as teachers, often teach or coach athletes quite different than ourselves.

So, if they are guard pullers, I might have them learn core wrestling takedowns,

if they hate the gi, Judo,

If they know no leglocks, then leg attacks.

So, being that I am clearly sadistic that way as a coach,

I do not fret much about having an athlete suffer through a rules course.

I enjoy having my students suffer here or there, in the right dose, for transformational purposes.

I would add, I love having my students take first aid and CPR courses.

In fact, we are quite stupid to teach anyone a choke or armlock before we have them pass a first aid and CPR course, if you really think about it.

A rules course is trivial suffering.

For a population that should not mind people trying to punch them in the face,

I am not overly concerned about the suffering of making them attend a rules course, CPR and first aid courses, and in fact, even telling them to go do community service of some kind as well.

Good coaches, like good parents, should not produce children or students unused to work, or sometimes having to do things they don't particularly enjoy doing.

And I promise you that I fight for the honor of cleaning of the mats pretty vigorously, and often trick mops away from the new students who fall for my ruses to get the mop from them.

And Royce, during his UFC days, cleaned the bathrooms of the Gracie Academy personally to drive home this point.

I have as well and of course when no rules course is ever NEAR my area, it means I have to lay money down to fly to said course.

Sure there absolutely should be a vetting system for our art. However having been in the game for almost 22 years. I’ve also seen the close mind of the gracies and the fact that the system does revolve around money.

I come from Gracie lineage, and I respect what they’ve done. However I don’t agree that my rank is dependent on me paying money to fly somewhere, to take a ref course.

Background check, absolutely, proof on lineage with photos or documentation, ok, CPR certification..... maybe? But if u are killing students via RNC, and need to know COR for it.... you shouldn’t be teaching. A ref course that is extra money, nowhere near your location, to certify a rank? Still a money grab.

I hate that IBJJF rules courses are often announced at last minute,

and I would make them online.

i came first from wrestling and boxing, and then Judo, and then Gracie Jiu-Jitsu,

so I find eccentricities of the BJJ approach to be "interesting".

That said, I have known six or seven people to stroke from chokes.

I knew one instructor giving a private lesson that went unconscious and started "bleeding out of his eyeballs" while teaching his student to choke him.

And I course have seen many terrible injuries over my three and a half decades of grappling experience, including my scholastic wrestling time.

You will have an extremely hard time convincing me that we should not all be attending a first aid and CPR course once a quarter.

Since all of our submission techniques were, in reality, designed to do injury or assault on the body.

On the other hand, I used to work in an operating room, and frequently volunteer in hospice environments for people dying from cancer, etc.

Perhaps, I see things, regarding human fragility, with too much familiarity with death, and consequence.

If ppl are showing said techniques where ppl bleed fro their eyes? Being and EMT-I a long time ago, and long time martial artist, I can see where this can be beneficial sure. However if u are an instructor and can’t tell when someone goes out, and u take them to that point, that’s no good.

The ref course will be online, as I mentioned this to IBJJF. However it it years away according to them. My point is how does a ref course, make my black belt rank legit? The gracies didn’t invent BJJ for sport, so why does me being able to decide a point call, decide that I’m a black belt or higher?

Michael, nothing compels you to get certified with the IBJJF, obviously.

However, USJA, and USA Wrestling all have there requirements for certified coaches / ranked coaches, and in the case of Judo, rank examiners, or master rank examiners.

At the second Mundials, in Rio De Janeiro, as I sat in the competitor bullpit,

Helio Gracie wandered over to us, wearing his blue belt, and explained that the competition we were about to engage in, was not real Jiu-Jitsu.

And, I have real trouble following the advantage system these days,

much like the new IJF rules for Judo,

because that was not how I was raised, nor do they make much sense to me, really.

On the other hand, I choose to go through the hassle of being certified through those orgs,

largely as a form of service to my students, or their students, if they want to compete in those tournaments, or inherit the right to those pedigrees.

I spent most of my Jiu-Jitsu competitive career doing NHB, Vale Tudo, and Shoot fights.

Largely because I could pick up some (small) checks and my travel costs.

And because Jiu-Jitsu tournaments were no where as common as they are today.

And they are common today, largely because the IBJJF brought a commercial model, and NAGA, and ADCC, and all the rest followed suit.

So, if you don't want to be certified by the IBJJF, you definitely don't have to be.

But, if you want to be, you have to pass a competition rules test, show proof of being CPR and First Aid certified, and pass a background check.

And have a signature from somebody who was previously certified and of the right rank.

You don't have to, but if you want to, well, that is the cost.

Everything has a cost.

I am now participating in this site, which is perhaps a value of some kind,

and now I am doing a lot of work, researching all the people asking me to verify their ranks.

Strange old world.

Agree with what u said, and also agree sure if u wish to be certified then u need to jump thru those hoops. My point is still that it’s a money grab, nothing more.

I wished to do it for my students for “legitimacy”, however as again I can’t meet the ref course requirement, then I cannot.

Which Is why I like this idea, and enjoy this forum and system.

The only place where we disagree, I suppose, is it is not just a money grab.

I have seen a lot of shitty tournaments that take money.

Similarly, people make fun of Gracie University,

but I have seen many offerings in the past that had no quality.

Capitalistic endeavors are designed to throw off profits.

The question is, do they also provide utility, or have quality standards, too?

If the Mundials provided no value, no one would be salivating to buy the latest BJJ Fanatics DVD set where many, if not most (but not all) of the talent either are IBJJF world champions, or made IBJJF world champions.

Obviously, the BJJ community does feel that competitive environment has a rigor of player that participates, and some standards, or they would not attend, nor attend to follow the champions from those venues, and those tournament champions product offerings.

Gracie university I disagree with as without hands on experience, you can’t really rank someone in my opinion. It’s great for those who have no nearby resources, and it’s a great money maker for the gracies.

It has its benefits and it’s downfalls in my opinion. However I see both sides of that.

Most people disagree with Gracie University because of the Internet controversy garbage.

I was in Los Angeles for one of the world tournaments, so I made an appointment to stop by Rener's academy, to talk with him about what he was trying to accomplish.

It is, as you say, a wonderful online platform, for review, for people without a near by academy, for people whose schedules won't allow them to get to an academy,

for dads that want a structured curriculum to train with their kids at home, as father son, or father daughter time, etc.

A lot of production value and thought went into it.

People get their panties in a wad about the "blue belt" test issue,

but here we all are on this site, verifying people's ranks online.....

It would be hypocritical in the extreme for any participant on this site to get their panties in a wad about online rank verification...if you think about it.

Regarding the platform making money, I don't care, not my concern.

I would recommend any of my students to make use of high quality adjunctive learning materials from vetted sources, and they qualify.

We agree most then I would say

Funny bit,

when I went in, before the meeting they were teaching a class.

They taught a good class.

But my immediate thought was, hmmm, they are bigger in real life, then they look on their youtube videos, etc....

Christian,

Are you finding that some people are taking advantage of your proprietary beltchecker black belt promotion guidelines? In other words, have people been giving themselves degrees based only on your time-served/pics/votes model? Were these guidelines invented by you alone, or did they come from some kind of committee or something?

What kind of feedback have you received on this idea? Are people comfortable with it?

I'm not sure what you mean by taking advantage of it? It looks like a few people have been using the time served verification for black belt (around 8 as far as I can see).