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What if beltchecker really *did* promote someone?
6 year(s) ago • 773 views • 26 replies
SMBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
So, a couple of recent threads (mostly about IBJJF and globetrotters, but also the one about Josh Barnett, and another one where the guy didn't want to be verified by people who hadn't rolled with him) have made it seem important to note that beltchecker isn't a crowd-sourced promotion engine; it's only a crowd-sourced validation of ranks people have already earned, in a consistent and accessible way for a wider public audience.
But here's a thought experiment. What if, say, a brown belt who came up traditionally decided to part ways with her instructor and affiliation, didn't like the chauvinism or hierarchy or the politics or whatever, moved to a small town and started a BJJ club. Make it somebody who doesn't even really care about rank, but in order to demonstrate bona fides, goes ahead and completes a beltchecker profile and is quickly validated. She still competes actively, runs a great school, is well respected by peers. Shows up at seminars, invites visiting black belts to her school, cross-trains at other gyms wherever she's welcome, but never re-associates. On the competition side, she gets top level results even when brown/black divisions are combined, or at top division in no-gi etc. Everybody who knows her kinda thinks she should be a black belt, but she never seeks out an affiliation.
At the fifth anniversary of starting her school, a bunch of her students decide to surprise her with a black belt. She shrugs, she sighs, she is honored, she accepts it. It means more to her coming from her students than it would from an instructor, she says. And so she goes on beltchecker and upgrades her profile. Transparent about the whole story. Photos of a bunch of blue and purple belts giving her the black. Her students and a lot of local folks who know her immediately vote for her, and she's validated. But naturally, somebody cries foul on the forum, and the big-vote black belts have a decision to make. Does a black belt *have* to come down from the patriarchal lineage? Or can it be legitimately earned and validated by peers and community acclaim?
It still wouldn't quite be beltchecker *promoting* someone, but if disputes didn't outweigh votes, it would be beltchecker community accepting a black belt without 'lineage'.
That would be when this place starts getting a little radical.
Could it happen? Should it?
But here's a thought experiment. What if, say, a brown belt who came up traditionally decided to part ways with her instructor and affiliation, didn't like the chauvinism or hierarchy or the politics or whatever, moved to a small town and started a BJJ club. Make it somebody who doesn't even really care about rank, but in order to demonstrate bona fides, goes ahead and completes a beltchecker profile and is quickly validated. She still competes actively, runs a great school, is well respected by peers. Shows up at seminars, invites visiting black belts to her school, cross-trains at other gyms wherever she's welcome, but never re-associates. On the competition side, she gets top level results even when brown/black divisions are combined, or at top division in no-gi etc. Everybody who knows her kinda thinks she should be a black belt, but she never seeks out an affiliation.
At the fifth anniversary of starting her school, a bunch of her students decide to surprise her with a black belt. She shrugs, she sighs, she is honored, she accepts it. It means more to her coming from her students than it would from an instructor, she says. And so she goes on beltchecker and upgrades her profile. Transparent about the whole story. Photos of a bunch of blue and purple belts giving her the black. Her students and a lot of local folks who know her immediately vote for her, and she's validated. But naturally, somebody cries foul on the forum, and the big-vote black belts have a decision to make. Does a black belt *have* to come down from the patriarchal lineage? Or can it be legitimately earned and validated by peers and community acclaim?
It still wouldn't quite be beltchecker *promoting* someone, but if disputes didn't outweigh votes, it would be beltchecker community accepting a black belt without 'lineage'.
That would be when this place starts getting a little radical.
Could it happen? Should it?
WJBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
So, a couple of recent threads (mostly about IBJJF and globetrotters, but also the one about Josh Barnett, and another one where the guy didn't want to be verified by people who hadn't rolled with him) have made it seem important to note that beltchecker isn't a crowd-sourced promotion engine; it's only a crowd-sourced validation of ranks people have already earned, in a consistent and accessible way for a wider public audience. But here's a thought experiment. What if, say, a brown belt who came up traditionally decided to part ways with her instructor and affiliation, didn't like the chauvinism or hierarchy or the politics or whatever, moved to a small town and started a BJJ club. Make it somebody who doesn't even really care about rank, but in order to demonstrate bona fides, goes ahead and completes a beltchecker profile and is quickly validated. She still competes actively, runs a great school, is well respected by peers. Shows up at seminars, invites visiting black belts to her school, cross-trains at other gyms wherever she's welcome, but never re-associates. On the competition side, she gets top level results even when brown/black divisions are combined, or at top division in no-gi etc. Everybody who knows her kinda thinks she should be a black belt, but she never seeks out an affiliation. At the fifth anniversary of starting her school, a bunch of her students decide to surprise her with a black belt. She shrugs, she sighs, she is honored, she accepts it. It means more to her coming from her students than it would from an instructor, she says. And so she goes on beltchecker and upgrades her profile. Transparent about the whole story. Photos of a bunch of blue and purple belts giving her the black. Her students and a lot of local folks who know her immediately vote for her, and she's validated. But naturally, somebody cries foul on the forum, and the big-vote black belts have a decision to make. Does a black belt *have* to come down from the patriarchal lineage? Or can it be legitimately earned and validated by peers and community acclaim? It still wouldn't quite be beltchecker *promoting* someone, but if disputes didn't outweigh votes, it would be beltchecker community accepting a black belt without 'lineage'. That would be when this place starts getting a little radical. Could it happen? Should it?
My head hurts :)
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I feel like the short answer is yes, a black belt 2nd degree or more is required to award a black belt. That's pretty much consensus. Deviate from that, and things get sticky.
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I agree with Justin. There should be a 2nd degree (or higher) black belt awarding the belt. Otherwise you shouldn't accept the promotion.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I don’t think beltchecker will change the consensus of general promotion criteria in the BJJ community as a whole. If anything, I think it will just reinforce what’s already agreed upon (as seen, for instance with the case of the purple belt who was promoted by a purple belt).
But I’ll take the thought experiment further. What if one, or a group of, let’s say 2nd degree black belts here on the site all agreed that this person should be a black belt and voted for it. No affiliation to her but maybe they know her, have seen the competitions etc. They talk on the forum and agree to go ahead to verify. And their votes carried more weight than those disagreeing and downvoting. That would be an online promotion by a group of qualified black belts. And even kind of legitimate...?
But I’ll take the thought experiment further. What if one, or a group of, let’s say 2nd degree black belts here on the site all agreed that this person should be a black belt and voted for it. No affiliation to her but maybe they know her, have seen the competitions etc. They talk on the forum and agree to go ahead to verify. And their votes carried more weight than those disagreeing and downvoting. That would be an online promotion by a group of qualified black belts. And even kind of legitimate...?
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Maybe they should take the time to surprise her in person? Maybe print out a ready-made beltchecker certificate and give that with the belt? :D
MKBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I founded my club as a purple belt. While I had a relationship with my professor, I managed a club as a purple brown and now black belt.
This story is contrived. If she was competing and training at that level and was a kind person it’s hard to think she wouldn’t have someone who could vouch for her and help the students promote her.
This story is contrived. If she was competing and training at that level and was a kind person it’s hard to think she wouldn’t have someone who could vouch for her and help the students promote her.
SMBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
well yes of course it is contrived. My fictional character could easily affiliate or train under someone who would be happy to have her. She just doesn’t want to. Got burned by the politics and authoritarian vibe at a couple of other gyms, just tired of it. Was fine to be a brown belt for life. Then this happened. And people have been saying she sandbags. Might the community accept that, if she trains and teaches like a black belt and competes like a black belt, she ought to be considered fully fledged, even without the usual lineage? I think it might, and to Christian’s point, if a bunch of black belts on here said: look, it’s unorthodox but she is legit; I would recommend her school to my students who moved to her town, I would accept that as legit.
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I think all it would take is just a single 2nd degree black belt to vouch that they had witnessed or trained with her before. Even if it was just on a single occasion. And didn't disagree with the recommendation. Just simply stating that they would not dispute it.
Without at least one verified black belt acknowledging that they have had some sort of interaction with them then it most likely would not pass. But then maybe field trips or sponsorship to a camp could be planned for such verification.
Without at least one verified black belt acknowledging that they have had some sort of interaction with them then it most likely would not pass. But then maybe field trips or sponsorship to a camp could be planned for such verification.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
CBBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I feel like the short answer is yes, a black belt 2nd degree or more is required to award a black belt. That's pretty much consensus. Deviate from that, and things get sticky.
That second degree bit, I feel, is nonsense. That's the IBJJF standard...but many, many schools and lineages haven't worked that way.
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Don't you think it should be at least a 1st degree who promotes to black though?
TPBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
That second degree bit, I feel, is nonsense. That's the IBJJF standard...but many, many schools and lineages haven't worked that way.
I feel it's good to have some kind of a standard also for promoting black belts, so that a fresh black belt can't start handing out black belts of their own right away.
The 2nd degree requirement seems like a sufficient solution to this, meaning that person has been a BB minimum of 6 years.
(Was it so that also two 1 degree BBs can together promote a black belts because their stripes add up, or am I making this up? Anyway now typing all this makes the whole obsession with tape stripes seem very ridiculous... which it of course is. :D)
The 2nd degree requirement seems like a sufficient solution to this, meaning that person has been a BB minimum of 6 years.
(Was it so that also two 1 degree BBs can together promote a black belts because their stripes add up, or am I making this up? Anyway now typing all this makes the whole obsession with tape stripes seem very ridiculous... which it of course is. :D)
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Uhm... I think that's kinda how I got my belt wasn't it?
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]Az4lwxTm6k
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]Az4lwxTm6k
TPBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Uhm... I think that's kinda how I got my belt wasn't it? https://www.youtube.com/w[...]Az4lwxTm6k
Hasn't Martin Aedma been a black belt for like a decade tho? So he should have the stripes to promote anyway.
(Oh wait.. I can actually check that right here on Beltchecker! :D)
(Oh wait.. I can actually check that right here on Beltchecker! :D)
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Hasn't Martin Aedma been a black belt for like a decade tho?
He is. But he is not an IBJJF certified instructor and John never did put any stripes to Martin and then he went to Finland to do totally his own thing already before the major fallout between Priit & SBG and the general rifts SBG Ireland scene. So it's kinda murky... I just wanted to say it's kinda an example where one COULD question parts of the lineage and stripes etc BUT on the other hand you do have a legit BB with undeniable competition and coaching prowess (Martin) AND several other blackbelts who have known me quite well for a long time (Daniel, Priit, Christian) and then some who might not know me for THAT long but do know me now more or less (Wim, Lilo, Mario, Aaron, Chris) and then a bunch whom I met at that camp who trust the others' decision (Davi, Omar, Charles, Frederick).
Edited 6 year(s) ago
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I feel it's good to have some kind of a standard also for promoting black belts, so that a fresh black belt can't start handing out black belts of their own right away. The 2nd degree requirement seems like a sufficient solution to this, meaning that person has been a BB minimum of 6 years. (Was it so that also two 1 degree BBs can together promote a black belts because their stripes add up, or am I making this up? Anyway now typing all this makes the whole obsession with tape stripes seem very ridiculous... which it of course is. :D)
Agreed, I think 6 years is a good time frame to have under your new belt before you start promoting black belts. There is no governing body for the art, so it's really up to your association or school guidelines. 2nd degree is an accepted standard.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
He is. But he is not an IBJJF certified instructor and John never did put any stripes to Martin and then he went to Finland to do totally his own thing already before the major fallout between Priit & SBG and the general rifts SBG Ireland scene. So it's kinda murky... I just wanted to say it's kinda an example where one COULD question parts of the lineage and stripes etc BUT on the other hand you do have a legit BB with undeniable competition and coaching prowess (Martin) AND several other blackbelts who have known me quite well for a long time (Daniel, Priit, Christian) and then some who might not know me for THAT long but do know me now more or less (Wim, Lilo, Mario, Aaron, Chris) and then a bunch whom I met at that camp who trust the others' decision (Davi, Omar, Charles, Frederick).
Yep, I'd love to hear anyone dispute the legitimacy of your belt :)
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I am the OG-proto-Beltchecker BB :D
Should finally order my card...
Should finally order my card...
Edited 6 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Uhm... I think that's kinda how I got my belt wasn't it? https://www.youtube.com/w[...]Az4lwxTm6k
Very cool
SBBrown beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Let me say so.
I am blue belt in bjj, but a "higher belt in probability and statistics" :)
The scenario is highly unlikely.
- Being good in jiu jitsu without supervizing black belt (let asume probability 70%)
- Opening own school and being succesfull (lets take 40%)
- Accepting Black belt from lower belts (5%)
- Having enough blue belts and purple pelts to validate BB (85%)
For every point I took waaay to high probability, so my predictuon should be conservative enought. Lets say those are independent events (I know they are not, for the simplysity reasons they are now)
So the conservative and simple calculation gives us the probability of such scenario around of 0.1%. Highly unlikely
I am blue belt in bjj, but a "higher belt in probability and statistics" :)
The scenario is highly unlikely.
- Being good in jiu jitsu without supervizing black belt (let asume probability 70%)
- Opening own school and being succesfull (lets take 40%)
- Accepting Black belt from lower belts (5%)
- Having enough blue belts and purple pelts to validate BB (85%)
For every point I took waaay to high probability, so my predictuon should be conservative enought. Lets say those are independent events (I know they are not, for the simplysity reasons they are now)
So the conservative and simple calculation gives us the probability of such scenario around of 0.1%. Highly unlikely
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Sergey said...
You lost me there... I think you are describing going from white to blue with Beltchecker. The more likely option is e.g. a brownbelt with years of experience moving or falling out with their legitimate BB instructor and THEN seeking validation as a blackbelt because of "justice" or business reasons etc. Which are all valid concerns. However quality control in that case is also important because there might be -reasons- for that fallout which heavily discredit the brownbelt.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
SMBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
@Sergey, no doubt it would be really rare. But there are already over 300 brown belts verified on here in the first month. Obviously your quantification assumptions are arbitrary, but in principal 3 and 4 sigma events shouldn't be very surprising.
@Jorgen, yes I agree with you. Although in my scenario, I was imagining -reasons- that might heavily discredit one or more black belts, to the extent that a brown belt whose trust was violated may simply never want to re-enter that apprentice-master power dynamic again. As everyone has stated, the natural (and well-traveled) path would be to find a new instructor or friend who is willing to play the role and award the belt. Obviously a stretched scenario, but I was trying to force a true community promotion scenario even a step or two beyond your experience. Appreciate everybody's thoughts.
@Jorgen, yes I agree with you. Although in my scenario, I was imagining -reasons- that might heavily discredit one or more black belts, to the extent that a brown belt whose trust was violated may simply never want to re-enter that apprentice-master power dynamic again. As everyone has stated, the natural (and well-traveled) path would be to find a new instructor or friend who is willing to play the role and award the belt. Obviously a stretched scenario, but I was trying to force a true community promotion scenario even a step or two beyond your experience. Appreciate everybody's thoughts.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Sean said...
I totally agree that your OP scenario is a radical one and PROBABLY the BChecker community would accept that. Would be interesting to see. At the same time that's why I'm also kinda reluctant about widespread "pics and story check out" verifications (even I have thrown in quite a few of those myself).
JWBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Has anyone used Beltchecker to promote with the Black Belt degrees? For example a verified Black Belt being promoted to 1st degree, etc. from Beltchecker. Just curious.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Has anyone used Beltchecker to promote with the Black Belt degrees? For example a verified Black Belt being promoted to 1st degree, etc. from Beltchecker. Just curious.
Quite many from what it seems. I have done it myself as an experiment. I don't use ranks on my belt anyway and I wanted the extra voting points here haha :D If people start downvoting it out of disagreement, I would probably just change it back. Community makes the rules!
Edited 6 year(s) ago
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Has anyone used Beltchecker to promote with the Black Belt degrees? For example a verified Black Belt being promoted to 1st degree, etc. from Beltchecker. Just curious.
I'd say that since black belt degrees are more of a time served function, any verified member of sufficient rank that is willing to sign off on the degree promotion would be well within the realm of acceptable. Again, just my 2 cents.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I'd say that since black belt degrees are more of a time served function, any verified member of sufficient rank that is willing to sign off on the degree promotion would be well within the realm of acceptable. Again, just my 2 cents.
Not only "more of", it is ONLY a time served function. At least in the eyes of IBJJF, who will promote your black belt degrees for payment with no signature from any instructor needed.
