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Roll vs Choke? ( Wich is the better documentary)
6 year(s) ago • 748 views • 12 replies
Black beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I’ve always been curious peoples opinions in my honest Jiu Jitsu opinion the two best documentaries or movies I’ve ever seen about Jiu Jitsu are “Choke” with Rickson Gracie and “ Roll” the story of Jiu Jitsu in Southern California. Although I love Choke ,I have to go with Roll , as being my favorite documentary. What’s your pick?
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
It depends how you're defining 'best'. Choke is a seminal documentary, regardless of its quality. Many people I've spoken to back when I used to do interviews for Jiu Jitsu Style Magazine would cite Choke as an important part of getting them into BJJ. It was made in a completely different context to Roll. By the time Eat Films were making that, it was 2015 and BJJ had spread around the world.
Perhaps more importantly, BJJ itself was no longer the same animal. When Choke was being filmed in the 1990s, BJJ was very closely associated with MMA, which back then was often still called NHB (no holds barred), or vale tudo, the Portuguese version of that. If you trained BJJ, it wasn't unusual that you were either already fighting in MMA or working towards it. BJJ was gritty, hard to find and even blue belts were seen as magical paragons of jiu jitsu divinity.
By 2015, there are still connections to MMA, but it is way less now. The vast majority of people who train BJJ today have absolutely no interest in ever fighting MMA (that definitely includes me, I train for fun). Rather than gritty, BJJ has become quite trendy: I've always viewed it as the hipster of martial arts (which I don't mean pejoratively, even though 'hipster' has almost become an insult for some people :D ). It's also widely available, particularly in places like the US and UK: there are loads of black belts, you're spoiled for choice in most major cities.
So I'm not sure you can fairly compare Choke to Roll at the broad level of "which is better", so much has changed in the 20 years between them.
Perhaps more importantly, BJJ itself was no longer the same animal. When Choke was being filmed in the 1990s, BJJ was very closely associated with MMA, which back then was often still called NHB (no holds barred), or vale tudo, the Portuguese version of that. If you trained BJJ, it wasn't unusual that you were either already fighting in MMA or working towards it. BJJ was gritty, hard to find and even blue belts were seen as magical paragons of jiu jitsu divinity.
By 2015, there are still connections to MMA, but it is way less now. The vast majority of people who train BJJ today have absolutely no interest in ever fighting MMA (that definitely includes me, I train for fun). Rather than gritty, BJJ has become quite trendy: I've always viewed it as the hipster of martial arts (which I don't mean pejoratively, even though 'hipster' has almost become an insult for some people :D ). It's also widely available, particularly in places like the US and UK: there are loads of black belts, you're spoiled for choice in most major cities.
So I'm not sure you can fairly compare Choke to Roll at the broad level of "which is better", so much has changed in the 20 years between them.
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Arte Suave vol 1 & 2 are also some classics. You get to see many world champs rolling, amongst them a young Marcelo Garcia.
Black belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
It depends how you're defining 'best'. Choke is a seminal documentary, regardless of its quality. Many people I've spoken to back when I used to do interviews for Jiu Jitsu Style Magazine would cite Choke as an important part of getting them into BJJ. It was made in a completely different context to Roll. By the time Eat Films were making that, it was 2015 and BJJ had spread around the world. Perhaps more importantly, BJJ itself was no longer the same animal. When Choke was being filmed in the 1990s, BJJ was very closely associated with MMA, which back then was often still called NHB (no holds barred), or vale tudo, the Portuguese version of that. If you trained BJJ, it wasn't unusual that you were either already fighting in MMA or working towards it. BJJ was gritty, hard to find and even blue belts were seen as magical paragons of jiu jitsu divinity. By 2015, there are still connections to MMA, but it is way less now. The vast majority of people who train BJJ today have absolutely no interest in ever fighting MMA (that definitely includes me, I train for fun). Rather than gritty, BJJ has become quite trendy: I've always viewed it as the hipster of martial arts (which I don't mean pejoratively, even though 'hipster' has almost become an insult for some people :D ). It's also widely available, particularly in places like the US and UK: there are loads of black belts, you're spoiled for choice in most major cities. So I'm not sure you can fairly compare Choke to Roll at the broad level of 'which is better', so much has changed in the 20 years between them.
Well said
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Arte Suave vol 1 & 2 are also some classics. You get to see many world champs rolling, amongst them a young Marcelo Garcia.
Yep, those are good too. There was another thread asking about doc recommendations recently, so I'll copy and paste what I wrote there (which I in turn copy and pasted from what I said one reddit a few years ago. Yay for C&P! ;D).
've got a list I put up when this question comes up on r/bjj:
I'll repost my list from 5 years ago, so I'll need to check the links are still working, but in terms of free stuff:
Rolling in Richmond: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]mp;index=7
Jiu Jitsu Lifestyle: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]mp;index=9
Matt Benyon did a fantastic video on his training in Japan, which even has some instructional segments. He's since changed his YouTube to focus on Scramble, unsurprisingly, but the original vimeo vid ( https://vimeo.com/8975562 ) is still up. Also, the Scramble channel ( http://www.youtube.com/us[...]ingdummies ) has plenty of good stuff on it too.
Here's a nicely done documentary where a beginner trains for the Pan-Ams 2009:
[Part 1]( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]XiK4MhEpuA )
[Part 2]( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]l9gKhfwiR0 )
Then there are these ( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]-FptC6Wxto ) from the Helio memorial, which are interesting too (if nowhere near as professional), though sadly looks like only the middle one currently works in the UK:
[Part 1]( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]annel_page ) [looks like that is now blocked in the UK]
[Part 2]( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]annel_page ) [works]
[Part 3]( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]Iydc1hte7Y ) [also blocked in the UK, I'm guessing music copyright issues]
To buy, there's Renzo Gracie Legacy, Arte Suave, Mat Methods, Tools of the Trade, Hafa Adai, Grapple (Roger), Choke (Rickson), Road to a Championship (Xande), Force of the Spirit & Heart of a Champion (both JJ Machado) and Day of the Zen (Mario Sperry).
Since I originally wrote that list about 5 or 6 years ago, a few cool ones have been released. To buy, best of them is the Roger documentary, [Tradition]( http://www.bantamfilms.co[...]/tradition ), which is very good. There are also two decent free ones, both by Eat Films:
[Jiu Jitsu vs the World]( https://www.youtube.com/w[...]Pyyp7uVmiA )
[ROLL: Jiu Jitsu in SoCal]( https://www.youtube.com/w[...]-BExc9SS68 )
've got a list I put up when this question comes up on r/bjj:
I'll repost my list from 5 years ago, so I'll need to check the links are still working, but in terms of free stuff:
Rolling in Richmond: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]mp;index=7
Jiu Jitsu Lifestyle: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]mp;index=9
Matt Benyon did a fantastic video on his training in Japan, which even has some instructional segments. He's since changed his YouTube to focus on Scramble, unsurprisingly, but the original vimeo vid ( https://vimeo.com/8975562 ) is still up. Also, the Scramble channel ( http://www.youtube.com/us[...]ingdummies ) has plenty of good stuff on it too.
Here's a nicely done documentary where a beginner trains for the Pan-Ams 2009:
[Part 1]( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]XiK4MhEpuA )
[Part 2]( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]l9gKhfwiR0 )
Then there are these ( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]-FptC6Wxto ) from the Helio memorial, which are interesting too (if nowhere near as professional), though sadly looks like only the middle one currently works in the UK:
[Part 1]( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]annel_page ) [looks like that is now blocked in the UK]
[Part 2]( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]annel_page ) [works]
[Part 3]( http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]Iydc1hte7Y ) [also blocked in the UK, I'm guessing music copyright issues]
To buy, there's Renzo Gracie Legacy, Arte Suave, Mat Methods, Tools of the Trade, Hafa Adai, Grapple (Roger), Choke (Rickson), Road to a Championship (Xande), Force of the Spirit & Heart of a Champion (both JJ Machado) and Day of the Zen (Mario Sperry).
Since I originally wrote that list about 5 or 6 years ago, a few cool ones have been released. To buy, best of them is the Roger documentary, [Tradition]( http://www.bantamfilms.co[...]/tradition ), which is very good. There are also two decent free ones, both by Eat Films:
[Jiu Jitsu vs the World]( https://www.youtube.com/w[...]Pyyp7uVmiA )
[ROLL: Jiu Jitsu in SoCal]( https://www.youtube.com/w[...]-BExc9SS68 )
Black beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
IMO, Yuki Nakai's progress through VTJ 95 was the best part of Choke.
It's not BJJ but ESPN's Iowa Wrestling documentary is really good too.
Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]QdcHrPotm4
It's not BJJ but ESPN's Iowa Wrestling documentary is really good too.
Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]QdcHrPotm4
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Loved both of them. Hard to really put one above the other.
I also really enjoyed documentary on Roger Gracie, "Tradition: Rise of a Gracie Fighter".
I also really enjoyed documentary on Roger Gracie, "Tradition: Rise of a Gracie Fighter".
Blue beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
i like em both.. but think theyre both a bit corny and "drink the coolaid" sorta docs. theyre not bad, theyre certainly enjoyable.. my favorite bjj doc of any sort is actually prolly kurt osianders personal doc lol. I like his style and his no bs, at all attitude. He points out that hes just another dude. and that bjj is something fun. but theres much more to a person than one of their main hobbies. He doesnt advocate drinking the coolaid, and advocates just rolling for the fun of it. leaving the politics behind.
I also really like christians short doc on hist globbtrotters channel.. I couldnt agree more with his statements regarding bjj politics. I just wanna roll dude.
There was a long time where I really debated on going no gi only.. not because i liked the act of no gi more, but more because i really couldnt care less about rank, to a certain degree (its a love hate relationship).. Coming up in judo, i encountered a lot of gatekeeping, as people lorded rank over other people, politicing their way to the top.. I figured no gi, mainly when there is no rank, people just roll with people and have fun.. If someone came into my gym and they kicked my a** i wanted to have them show what they did.. when i found freestyle judo and it was just like "coaches have control.. do your thing.." and the politics was severely minimized and people were allowed to do all of judo combined.. which really made me happy... I have always advocated that the IBJJF is making the same mistakes as the IJF before them.. but people were drinking the coolaid. Thats why i was so glad to see beltchecker come about, and knowing the documentary that christian made existed..
So i digressed a lot..
Both of these are pretty fun :)
I also really like christians short doc on hist globbtrotters channel.. I couldnt agree more with his statements regarding bjj politics. I just wanna roll dude.
There was a long time where I really debated on going no gi only.. not because i liked the act of no gi more, but more because i really couldnt care less about rank, to a certain degree (its a love hate relationship).. Coming up in judo, i encountered a lot of gatekeeping, as people lorded rank over other people, politicing their way to the top.. I figured no gi, mainly when there is no rank, people just roll with people and have fun.. If someone came into my gym and they kicked my a** i wanted to have them show what they did.. when i found freestyle judo and it was just like "coaches have control.. do your thing.." and the politics was severely minimized and people were allowed to do all of judo combined.. which really made me happy... I have always advocated that the IBJJF is making the same mistakes as the IJF before them.. but people were drinking the coolaid. Thats why i was so glad to see beltchecker come about, and knowing the documentary that christian made existed..
So i digressed a lot..
Both of these are pretty fun :)
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
IMO, Yuki Nakai's progress through VTJ 95 was the best part of Choke
Agreed. Also interesting that despite being blinded in one eye by Gerard Gordeau, Nakai kept that quiet because he didn't want to risk hindering the growth of MMA. Classy.
Purple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
It depends how you're defining 'best'. Choke is a seminal documentary, regardless of its quality. Many people I've spoken to back when I used to do interviews for Jiu Jitsu Style Magazine would cite Choke as an important part of getting them into BJJ. It was made in a completely different context to Roll. By the time Eat Films were making that, it was 2015 and BJJ had spread around the world. Perhaps more importantly, BJJ itself was no longer the same animal. When Choke was being filmed in the 1990s, BJJ was very closely associated with MMA, which back then was often still called NHB (no holds barred), or vale tudo, the Portuguese version of that. If you trained BJJ, it wasn't unusual that you were either already fighting in MMA or working towards it. BJJ was gritty, hard to find and even blue belts were seen as magical paragons of jiu jitsu divinity. By 2015, there are still connections to MMA, but it is way less now. The vast majority of people who train BJJ today have absolutely no interest in ever fighting MMA (that definitely includes me, I train for fun). Rather than gritty, BJJ has become quite trendy: I've always viewed it as the hipster of martial arts (which I don't mean pejoratively, even though 'hipster' has almost become an insult for some people :D ). It's also widely available, particularly in places like the US and UK: there are loads of black belts, you're spoiled for choice in most major cities. So I'm not sure you can fairly compare Choke to Roll at the broad level of 'which is better', so much has changed in the 20 years between them.
Just throwing this into the mix. Last year I did a poll in a white belt Facebook group so see what other sporting backgrounds people had. I was somewhat surprised to see MMA as the #1 answer. There are different ways to interpret the results. My personal experience from camps and meeting people at competitions would be more like 10% - 15% of BJJ people have done MMA. Whereas this poll indicated ~50%! But I also know of clubs where NoGi BJJ is called MMA!

Black belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Yeah, my experience training BJJ since 2006 (and indeed very sporadically MMA from 2003-2006) would definitely indicate that the number of people who have also done MMA is nowhere near 50%. Especially not in the last few years: I ask everybody who trains with me if they have done any other martial arts, MMA is rarely mentioned. BUT I haven't done a specific poll on it, so I don't have any hard data.
Purple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Yeah, my experience training BJJ since 2006 (and indeed very sporadically MMA from 2003-2006) would definitely indicate that the number of people who have also done MMA is nowhere near 50%. Especially not in the last few years: I ask everybody who trains with me if they have done any other martial arts, MMA is rarely mentioned. BUT I haven't done a specific poll on it, so I don't have any hard data.
Well at Winter Camp we had ~100 people. I know 5 definites who have had MMA fights, so i'm guessing there are another 5-10 i didn't know.
I think the distancing is a sad trend and people should train some combat jiu jitsu to get a reality check on their defence.
I think the distancing is a sad trend and people should train some combat jiu jitsu to get a reality check on their defence.
Purple beltVerified



