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Thought on brown belts promoting students
6 year(s) ago • 45935 views • 135 replies
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
My coach has been promoting since white belt, but always in concert with his coach, who was a brown belt when they started. Now, both are black belts. Not everywhere is San Diego, LA, or NYC, where this is a black belt on every corner.
White belt promoting to......white belt? I'm confused (it's easy to do)
SZBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
White belt promoting to......white belt? I'm confused (it's easy to do)
My thoughts also when I read that.
ARBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Every tab or belt I’ve ever given out to either kids or adults has been approved by my black belt coach. As a newly promoted brown belt, I may start giving 1st tabs on white or kids grey belt but other than that, my coach either hands them out himself or gives me permission to do so.
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Every tab or belt I’ve ever given out to either kids or adults has been approved by my black belt coach. As a newly promoted brown belt, I may start giving 1st tabs on white or kids grey belt but other than that, my coach either hands them out himself or gives me permission to do so.
Super glad to see you're staying in Green Bay.
CRPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Out of curiousity, if you're completely unaffiliated, how do you arrange for black belts to be there for the promotions?
Book them for seminars, whether that be a BB from another gym localish or someone else with international rep who is doing a seminar tour.
I've been at seminars with Crezio, Kit Dale amongst others where people were promoted. My old academy pre the head coach getting his black belt had Marcos Nardini, Ellis Younger & other local (North East) black belts.
My current academy is run by a brown belt who has exclusively been promoted directly by Roger Gracie but for any belt promotions one of the head coaches from RGA HQ comes up to promote which has previously been Roger, Mauricio Gomes, Oscar Guigala amongst others.
I've been at seminars with Crezio, Kit Dale amongst others where people were promoted. My old academy pre the head coach getting his black belt had Marcos Nardini, Ellis Younger & other local (North East) black belts.
My current academy is run by a brown belt who has exclusively been promoted directly by Roger Gracie but for any belt promotions one of the head coaches from RGA HQ comes up to promote which has previously been Roger, Mauricio Gomes, Oscar Guigala amongst others.
BBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I'm a brown belt, I promote up to Purple. My coach is aware and has never had a problem with it.
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Just recently visited a gym where a guy who got his brown from me promoted a person to blue. Honestly, I'd be fine with a brown belt promoting blue belts and even purples. I was just there to trick the finnish bjj federation, because they only recognise promotions done or signed off by black belts.
We did also have an awesome camp to prepare for next week's ADCC nationals. :)
We did also have an awesome camp to prepare for next week's ADCC nationals. :)
JMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Over a decade ago, I received my Blue belt from a Brown Belt. However, he was functioning under the authority of his Black Belt Instructor.
We were in an under developed region in the United States where the average club was run by either a Blue or Purple Belt, and it wasn't until some 8 years later that we had a Black Belt within about a 100 miles from us. During this time, I operated a club and would most often wait for our Black Belt to visit before any promotions were granted, but there were times he would say "I wont be able to make it up for a while so go ahead and promote them". The key here is his name was always on that promotion, I was just the delivery guy if you willl!
But, when the person trained directly under me on a daily basis and had no real relationship with my instructor they felt I was their coach and chose to credit me with their promotion. In the end, growth occurred and we now have a few black belts in our academy, and are still directly associated with the original Black Belt of reference!
I'm sure there are plenty of places where similar scenarios still occur, and as a Black Belt Instructor and Academy owner, I would see no issue with a Brown Belt promoting someone who has put in the work (when there is not a Black Belt available).
Thanks for having me, and I look forward to hanging out here in the forums!
We were in an under developed region in the United States where the average club was run by either a Blue or Purple Belt, and it wasn't until some 8 years later that we had a Black Belt within about a 100 miles from us. During this time, I operated a club and would most often wait for our Black Belt to visit before any promotions were granted, but there were times he would say "I wont be able to make it up for a while so go ahead and promote them". The key here is his name was always on that promotion, I was just the delivery guy if you willl!
But, when the person trained directly under me on a daily basis and had no real relationship with my instructor they felt I was their coach and chose to credit me with their promotion. In the end, growth occurred and we now have a few black belts in our academy, and are still directly associated with the original Black Belt of reference!
I'm sure there are plenty of places where similar scenarios still occur, and as a Black Belt Instructor and Academy owner, I would see no issue with a Brown Belt promoting someone who has put in the work (when there is not a Black Belt available).
Thanks for having me, and I look forward to hanging out here in the forums!
KWBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think there's a lot of reasons why this is ok, acceptable and/or necessary, and I think there's lots of reasons this could be gamed or some kind of a scam, and I think either of those things flesh themselves out very, very quickly.
AKBrown beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Because of the above debate, we grade athletes and place the grading online for all to see. At the time of this demo, I was a purple belt:
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]o&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]o&t=1s
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I was promoted to blue belt by a purple belt (at the time) Mike Yanez - who's also Mr. Bateman's instructor.
This was 2001, and there simply weren't belts above purple in the state.
The promotion was "okay'd / blessed / given the go ahead" by Pablo Popovitch, who trusted the judgement of his purple belt.
It is what it is. It was a different time.
Nowadays, I think there are so many high level instructors around, that there isn't any need for those kinds of promotions.
Also, being a 3rd degree black belt myself, I kind of cringe about it now. I mean, there's no comparison to the skill / knowledge gap between purple & black belts.
But again, it was a different time. Also, less specialized. We did self defense, no-gi, vale tudo and sport bjj - depending on what the mood of the week was. BJJ was taught as a versatile COMBAT art. Less shenanigans with inverted matrix lapel guard. More facepunch jits.
I kind of feel nostalgic about that (read: old)
This was 2001, and there simply weren't belts above purple in the state.
The promotion was "okay'd / blessed / given the go ahead" by Pablo Popovitch, who trusted the judgement of his purple belt.
It is what it is. It was a different time.
Nowadays, I think there are so many high level instructors around, that there isn't any need for those kinds of promotions.
Also, being a 3rd degree black belt myself, I kind of cringe about it now. I mean, there's no comparison to the skill / knowledge gap between purple & black belts.
But again, it was a different time. Also, less specialized. We did self defense, no-gi, vale tudo and sport bjj - depending on what the mood of the week was. BJJ was taught as a versatile COMBAT art. Less shenanigans with inverted matrix lapel guard. More facepunch jits.
I kind of feel nostalgic about that (read: old)
ADBrown beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Another thing to think about is what our colored belts mean. The amount of time and effort it takes to get a blue belt in BJJ is how long it takes to get a brown or maybe even black belt in another martial art, such as Judo. So, by the time you are a brown belt, you have a considerable amount of experience and probably coaching time. Once upon a time BJJ only had white, blue and dark blue, so I wouldn't hang up on it too much myself.
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Within my lineage (Alliance/Gigi), we've gotten permission to promote to white with stripes when on purple, to blue when on brown and to purple and brown when on black. Third degree black to promote someone else to black.
At least previously (still?) IBJJF criteria has been that it has been ok to promote up to one stripe below your own belt (BB promotions excluded), if there's no black belt close by. I.e. a little less strict than in my lineage. I'm actually ok with that criteria on Beltchecker when verifying (and won't even check if there's really no BB in the vicinity), but as you all know, I'm quite generous with my votes :-)
At least previously (still?) IBJJF criteria has been that it has been ok to promote up to one stripe below your own belt (BB promotions excluded), if there's no black belt close by. I.e. a little less strict than in my lineage. I'm actually ok with that criteria on Beltchecker when verifying (and won't even check if there's really no BB in the vicinity), but as you all know, I'm quite generous with my votes :-)
EHBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I only see brown belt giving out a blue belts at most as basicly keeping to traditional rank of two above in bjj. And still then they get permission from who ever they are under or affiliated to do so as a brown belt.
JBrown beltVerifiedDallas
2 year(s) ago
Hey Ethan, 100% that some places choose one thing and some choose another. I’m not familiar with any tradition of one belted person promoting 2 belt colors down ? I’ve been training for 22 years at the Gracie academy, with Relson himself and with my professor and in my opinion, the greatest jiu jitsu teacher alive today - and I’ve never heard anything like that. I’ve seen brown belts promote to purple belt with 4 stripes because they are certainly familiar with what this rank entails. I’ve not seen a brown belt promote someone to brown belt but I can imagine a scenario where it could happen. Either way, it all depends on the legitimacy of the person who is doing the promoting. If they’re a knucklehead who is also wearing a brown belt, whoever they’re promoting is probably a knucklehead too. If they’re top level and they know what they’re talking about, I don’t have a problem with it at all. The person they promoted can go roll with anyone on earth and if they’re not legit, that will be demonstrated in a hurry.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Side note.
I prefer that only 3rd degree black belts (and up) can promote someone to black belt. IBJJF says 2.
Assuming you just got your black belt, and a brand new white belts walks in the door and becomes your student.
Student trains consistently under your supervision.
It's safe to say that the white belt in question will be at black belt level at around the 9 years mark of consistent training, right?
So based purely on time on the mat, that's 3 black belt degrees of time.
Not the 6 year mark (2 black belt degrees of time on the mat).
I prefer that only 3rd degree black belts (and up) can promote someone to black belt. IBJJF says 2.
Assuming you just got your black belt, and a brand new white belts walks in the door and becomes your student.
Student trains consistently under your supervision.
It's safe to say that the white belt in question will be at black belt level at around the 9 years mark of consistent training, right?
So based purely on time on the mat, that's 3 black belt degrees of time.
Not the 6 year mark (2 black belt degrees of time on the mat).
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Side note. I prefer that only 3rd degree black belts (and up) can promote someone to black belt. IBJJF says 2. Assuming you just got your black belt, and a brand new white belts walks in the door and becomes your student. Student trains consistently under your supervision. It's safe to say that the white belt in question will be at black belt level at around the 9 years mark of consistent training, right? So based purely on time on the mat, that's 3 black belt degrees of time. Not the 6 year mark (2 black belt degrees of time on the mat).
I too prefer the higher 3:rd degree standard but accept the 2:nd degree standard with others.
For some statistics, I checked the downvotes I've placed and 18 of them were because of promoting instructors with less than 2:nd degree BB. Four of them even had sub-second-degree-promotors for several "lineage generations". And will perhaps do the same themselves. Could really result in silly amounts of new generations to the lineage in just a decade!
Better then with the instructors teacher stepping in as a "senior co-promoter" or whatever to call it, to preserve a high standard.
For some statistics, I checked the downvotes I've placed and 18 of them were because of promoting instructors with less than 2:nd degree BB. Four of them even had sub-second-degree-promotors for several "lineage generations". And will perhaps do the same themselves. Could really result in silly amounts of new generations to the lineage in just a decade!
Better then with the instructors teacher stepping in as a "senior co-promoter" or whatever to call it, to preserve a high standard.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Imo, third degree black belt requirement to promote a black belt is nothing but a powergrab from old-timers who are trying to stay relevant. I mean, do we really need someone to serve as a black belt for NINE YEARS before we trust them to evaluate when someone else is at black belt level? Even less if we're talking promotions based on competition.
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Yes.
You get promoted to black belt. Brand new student walks in the door the day after, trains regularly under your care.
Nine years later he/she can be a black belt.
But not in six years, unless they're Joseph Chen or some sort of specimen.
It's not an outlandish claim.
bleep-blop-does-not-compute-belts-are-stupid-anyway-bleep-blop
You get promoted to black belt. Brand new student walks in the door the day after, trains regularly under your care.
Nine years later he/she can be a black belt.
But not in six years, unless they're Joseph Chen or some sort of specimen.
It's not an outlandish claim.
bleep-blop-does-not-compute-belts-are-stupid-anyway-bleep-blop
Edited 2 year(s) ago
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Yes. You get promoted to black belt. Brand new student walks in the door the day after, trains regularly under your care. Nine years later he/she can be a black belt. But not in six years, unless they're Joseph Chen or some sort of specimen. It's not an outlandish claim. bleep-blop-does-not-compute-belts-are-stupid-anyway-bleep-blop
If you mean the 3rd degree requirement should be some kind of safeguard to make sure that new students train for at least nine years before you can give them a black belt, I'm not sure the logic checks out. If they start training after you've already been a black belt for three years, then you can still promote them to black after six years of training (where you'd get your 3rd degree). So it really makes no difference.
Minimum belt time rules exist for that safeguard, instead.
Minimum belt time rules exist for that safeguard, instead.
VABlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
There is nothing that says that a 9 years black belts is more adequate to determine the promotin than a 6 year. For a real athlete training grappling a 6 year black belt is very normal.
Also being able to determine the rank of others doesn't necessarily have to be tied to your own belt. ESPECIALLY since the black belt degrees often mean absolutely nothing other then that you kept training somewhat.
Nothing is an "outlandish claim" when it comes to belt promotion since its pretty much a wild west of ideas.
Also being able to determine the rank of others doesn't necessarily have to be tied to your own belt. ESPECIALLY since the black belt degrees often mean absolutely nothing other then that you kept training somewhat.
Nothing is an "outlandish claim" when it comes to belt promotion since its pretty much a wild west of ideas.
ARBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
There is nothing that says that a 9 years black belts is more adequate to determine the promotin than a 6 year. For a real athlete training grappling a 6 year black belt is very normal. Also being able to determine the rank of others doesn't necessarily have to be tied to your own belt. ESPECIALLY since the black belt degrees often mean absolutely nothing other then that you kept training somewhat. Nothing is an 'outlandish claim' when it comes to belt promotion since its pretty much a wild west of ideas.
Ya. It's an individual thing, right? Sometimes you can train for 18 years or so, and when people ask, "When are you getting your black belt?" your coach, professor, mastre, etc, hears the questions and starts laughing... :)
JJBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Yes. You get promoted to black belt. Brand new student walks in the door the day after, trains regularly under your care. Nine years later he/she can be a black belt. But not in six years, unless they're Joseph Chen or some sort of specimen. It's not an outlandish claim. bleep-blop-does-not-compute-belts-are-stupid-anyway-bleep-blop
Your assuming you started teaching the moment you became a black belt. Some people have been teaching since blue/purple belt.
I knew several brown belts belts and even a blue belt that were way better teachers and judges of where someone stood than many local black belts. Most of them have their black belts now anyways. Would be insane to make them wait an additional 9 years instead of 6.
I knew several brown belts belts and even a blue belt that were way better teachers and judges of where someone stood than many local black belts. Most of them have their black belts now anyways. Would be insane to make them wait an additional 9 years instead of 6.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
VABlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Your assuming you started teaching the moment you became a black belt. Some people have been teaching since blue/purple belt. I knew several brown belts belts and even a blue belt that were way better teachers and judges of where someone stood than many local black belts. Most of them have their black belts now anyways. Would be insane to make them wait an additional 9 years instead of 6.
This is a good point, another view point is when you look at other sports that are based on number grades (diving, skating, gymnastics) the person judging doesn't have to have any skill in the sport. He's able to judge who is better without being able to demonstrate it themselves and without having much experience)
VHBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
The rule is you can promote up to a belt level below yours. This is generally done with the head instructors blessing, but if you are the head instructor and a brown belt, you can promote up to purple. Brown belt and above would need a black belt to sign off on.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Damn lets just do away with belts if we can't even come up with a consensus on who can give them and when..
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
There is nothing that says that a 9 years black belts is more adequate to determine the promotin than a 6 year.
Maybe even the contrary. After 9 years as black belt, a lot of people are probably way behind the game due to age, life, injuries, training intensity. I've been a black belt for 10 years but I also for sure can not confidently say that I can assess someone's skills in modern Jiu Jitsu techniques/trends. I simply don't follow the developments of the sport anymore in the same way.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Saw this article about it https://www.fight-platfor[...]ote-in-bjj
Reading the article, I noticed they referenced the ibjjf's grading policy, but the link they provided took me to a description of Muay Thai.
The claim that they make goes contrary to what the ibjjf actually stipulates in their graduation requirements (article 6.1), which reads:
"The membership request of an athlete graded in Belts of White, Grey, Yellow, Orange, Green, Blue, Purple and Brown must be signed/approved by an IBJJF affiliated Black Belt Professor (except a provisional Brown Belt, see Article 7)."
Anybody see anything listed anywhere that states otherwise?
Personally, I agree with them. Coming up through the ranks at at least a half dozen different gyms, I've never seen anyone promoted by anyone who isn't a black belt.
That being said, I'm OK with non-bb's promoting, so long as the promotion is supported by a black belt.
I never personally promoted anyone until I was a black belt, but like I said, I think it's OK, so long as it's approved. It's never a bad idea to come to a decision after talking it over with other qualified individuals.
The claim that they make goes contrary to what the ibjjf actually stipulates in their graduation requirements (article 6.1), which reads:
"The membership request of an athlete graded in Belts of White, Grey, Yellow, Orange, Green, Blue, Purple and Brown must be signed/approved by an IBJJF affiliated Black Belt Professor (except a provisional Brown Belt, see Article 7)."
Anybody see anything listed anywhere that states otherwise?
Personally, I agree with them. Coming up through the ranks at at least a half dozen different gyms, I've never seen anyone promoted by anyone who isn't a black belt.
That being said, I'm OK with non-bb's promoting, so long as the promotion is supported by a black belt.
I never personally promoted anyone until I was a black belt, but like I said, I think it's OK, so long as it's approved. It's never a bad idea to come to a decision after talking it over with other qualified individuals.
MCPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think it depends on the brown belt. My first exposure to JJ was a brown belt coach who had an extensive record in MMA and high level competition. He was a technical expert and student under a major black belt in the area, also owned his own school. Him promoting students seemed perfectly normal. A casual hobbyist like myself should probably not be entrusted with the progress of others honestly. (I'm purple but you get the point). Just my opinion. I have the luxury of an awesome black belt coach so it'll never come to that anyways.
