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Leg Lock Legacies
6 year(s) ago • 3758 views • 30 replies
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I've taken this lockdown to try and work on my weakest area (leg locks) as there's only so many shrimping drills a top player can tolerate. I've been watching a lot of things on UFC Fight Pass and my initial observation is that most the best leg lockers seem to have a couple of degree of separation from either:
John Danaher / Eddie Cummings - (e.g. Gordon Ryan, Garry Tonon) or
Jean Jacques Machado - (e.g. Lachlan Giles, Craig Jones)
The major outliers seem to be Rousimar Palhares and Dean Lister. Am I missing some link or did they just decide to focus on leg attacks for their own reasons?
Apologies to any amazing BJJ leg lockers i missed off the list. I realise there are catch wrestlers like Masakazu Imanari and Ken Shamrock I didn't mention, i'm mainly interested in the BJJ lineages that developed the leg lock game.
John Danaher / Eddie Cummings - (e.g. Gordon Ryan, Garry Tonon) or
Jean Jacques Machado - (e.g. Lachlan Giles, Craig Jones)
The major outliers seem to be Rousimar Palhares and Dean Lister. Am I missing some link or did they just decide to focus on leg attacks for their own reasons?
Apologies to any amazing BJJ leg lockers i missed off the list. I realise there are catch wrestlers like Masakazu Imanari and Ken Shamrock I didn't mention, i'm mainly interested in the BJJ lineages that developed the leg lock game.
DBBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
It depends on when you're talking about, but the whole Fadda lineage. Oliver Geddes is well-known for his foot locks, especially from 50/50. Guys like Nathan Orchard and Chris Herzog out of 10P were known for their good leg locks for awhile. Honestly, if you find the guys Eddie Cummings competed against - his run was pretty much a whose-who of leg locks at the time, arguably to show how good his leg locks were.
Having said that, lineage isn't what matters here, who they're training with and what tournaments/rulesets they're competing in matter way more. I know way more folks who learned leg locks from Sambists than as part of their normal BJJ training because leg locks had a bad reputation for awhile and just weren't developed that much in most BJJ circles.
Having said that, lineage isn't what matters here, who they're training with and what tournaments/rulesets they're competing in matter way more. I know way more folks who learned leg locks from Sambists than as part of their normal BJJ training because leg locks had a bad reputation for awhile and just weren't developed that much in most BJJ circles.
JMBlue beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Do you reckon body type might have to do with it? I mean Dean listen and Palhares are basically built like walking tanks.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Well all 10P guys are connected to JJM... But I guess there's no real pattern here besides several groups becoming more inclined to leglocks due to also nogi sub only scene starting to bloom.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Do you reckon body type might have to do with it? I mean Dean listen and Palhares are basically built like walking tanks.
I think Palhares used his body shape to enable his leg lock game in MMA, but i can also think of some good leg lockers who have the opposite build and have been successful with leg locks in MMA like Paul Sass. In BJJ, i'd rather be tall and thin than short and stocky for a leg lock game.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Well all 10P guys are connected to JJM... But I guess there's no real pattern here besides several groups becoming more inclined to leglocks due to also nogi sub only scene starting to bloom.
I tend to imagine most the people get really good at something by training with other people who are also elite level (iron sharpens iron) but that's probably not universal. I couldn't work out if Rousimar Palhares had a training partner who was much of a leg locker or he just had all rounders to train against. I know his trainer was elite level but I associate Murilo Bustamante with being a guard player rather than a leg locker, mainly because of his Rampage Jackson fight though. I won't pretend to have watched his full body of work.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
It depends on when you're talking about, but the whole Fadda lineage. Oliver Geddes is well-known for his foot locks, especially from 50/50. Guys like Nathan Orchard and Chris Herzog out of 10P were known for their good leg locks for awhile. Honestly, if you find the guys Eddie Cummings competed against - his run was pretty much a whose-who of leg locks at the time, arguably to show how good his leg locks were. Having said that, lineage isn't what matters here, who they're training with and what tournaments/rulesets they're competing in matter way more. I know way more folks who learned leg locks from Sambists than as part of their normal BJJ training because leg locks had a bad reputation for awhile and just weren't developed that much in most BJJ circles.
Please excuse my ignorance, but who branches off the Fadda lineage in terms of high profile leg lockers?
DCBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
The Machado brothers are a good bunch to look at, I know Rigan put out a video a long time ago specifically about submissions from the hips down.
When they moved to America they dominated submission competitions and exposed themselves to and developed a lot leg attacks. Rigan wanted to follow Rolls Gracie's example (I think that's the right Gracie... Died in a paragliding incident of I'm not wrong?) on mastering grappling and incorporating what worked well into BJJ.
At least that's the story I heard from a 'dirty dozen' member under Rigan.
When they moved to America they dominated submission competitions and exposed themselves to and developed a lot leg attacks. Rigan wanted to follow Rolls Gracie's example (I think that's the right Gracie... Died in a paragliding incident of I'm not wrong?) on mastering grappling and incorporating what worked well into BJJ.
At least that's the story I heard from a 'dirty dozen' member under Rigan.
DBBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Please excuse my ignorance, but who branches off the Fadda lineage in terms of high profile leg lockers?
"It depends on when you're talking about"
Fadda's school won a contest against Gracie's school in the 1950s and the wins are attributed to Fadda's students use of leg locks. This is typically one of the first stories told when someone brings up the history of leg locks being viewed negatively in BJJ. I can't think of anyone modern who's well known as leg locker, but I'm sure GFTeam or Nova União have some that I just can't think of.
This gets back to the point that lineage matters way less than who they train with and what rule sets they're training for.
Fadda's school won a contest against Gracie's school in the 1950s and the wins are attributed to Fadda's students use of leg locks. This is typically one of the first stories told when someone brings up the history of leg locks being viewed negatively in BJJ. I can't think of anyone modern who's well known as leg locker, but I'm sure GFTeam or Nova União have some that I just can't think of.
This gets back to the point that lineage matters way less than who they train with and what rule sets they're training for.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I'm out of the leg lock game (too many knee surgeries) and I rarely ever teach it, but I have students who have turned it into their main thing. In these days, I don't think lineage has much to do with your style, people get their style, inspiration and input from so many other sources than their coach. I pride myself in having a lot of students who are highly skilled in areas I have never taught them anything about.
AMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I'd look at some material by Gokor Chivichyan who is considered by many to be the Grandfather of Leglocks:
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]oCdBxZaEgg
https://www.google.com/se[...]ent=psy-ab
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]oCdBxZaEgg
https://www.google.com/se[...]ent=psy-ab
Edited 6 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
J Danaher leglock system is FIRE
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
J Danaher leglock system is FIRE
Indeed. To watch gazillion hours of JD talking feels like a slow burn.
JMBlue beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
J Danaher leglock system is FIRE
Use Danaher's Videos to create a Danaher Death Squad 2.0.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Indeed. To watch gazillion hours of JD talking feels like a slow burn.
I watch him in segments.
I used to feel like too that but I find all instructionals annoying to a point.
Can't argue with his system though.
Like him or not the results don't lie.
I used to feel like too that but I find all instructionals annoying to a point.
Can't argue with his system though.
Like him or not the results don't lie.
DCBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Is it 24/7 rash tops that make him awesome or being from NZ?...
I guess we'll never know... ;)
I guess we'll never know... ;)
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Use Danaher's Videos to create a Danaher Death Squad 2.0.
*Cough cough* 10th planet *cough*
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I watch him in segments. I used to feel like too that but I find all instructionals annoying to a point. Can't argue with his system though. Like him or not the results don't lie.
I'm generally positive towards him. My only gripe is that the system (I won't call it "his" because Eddie Cummings) plays to the rules of BJJ a bit too much for my liking. One rule in particular, that a standing person must engage a sitting opponent. Reverse that rather arbitrary rule and about 80% of the entries disappear. You can still have a leg attack game, but it would look quite different.
(In my humble opinion)
(In my humble opinion)
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
If a standing person won't engage sitting person then the sitting person will stand up and it's a standup game with standup entries...
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
If a standing person won't engage sitting person then the sitting person will stand up and it's a standup game with standup entries...
Sure, but in BJJ the standing person has to engage. Unlike MMA where they'd stand the bottom guy up. Most guys aren't working their leg game from standing.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Most guys are not interested in MMA - sport rulesets determine the game.
![Slideyfoot [jun]](userimg/5e25cf311adfd.jpg){kind=small}
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Indeed. To watch gazillion hours of JD talking feels like a slow burn.
This is why the Video Speed Controller plug in on Chrome is so great, Danaher becomes bearable! I usually watch him on 1.8 to 3x speed. Though obviously not his leglock material, because leglocks are terrifying. :D
I've enjoyed his Guard Retention set so far (sort of combines Priit, Ryan Hall and a few other instructors I've seen, in a well structure way). It's the first one he's released I was actually interested in checking out. Wouldn't have paid for it myself (massive rip off and I don't like buying things from BJJ Fanatics due to the AWFUL marketing), but handy xmas present last year. ;)
I've enjoyed his Guard Retention set so far (sort of combines Priit, Ryan Hall and a few other instructors I've seen, in a well structure way). It's the first one he's released I was actually interested in checking out. Wouldn't have paid for it myself (massive rip off and I don't like buying things from BJJ Fanatics due to the AWFUL marketing), but handy xmas present last year. ;)
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Actually Danaher credits Lister with starting him on his leg lock journey
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Actually Danaher credits Lister with starting him on his leg lock journey
Yes, he absolutely credits Lister with planting the seed. Funny how a a comment from Lister created that spark of curiousity that led him down that path. Must have been a eureka moment for Danaher.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Yes, he absolutely credits Lister with planting the seed.
I'm not sure Danaher has publically mentioned him much, but IIRC Aaron Milam was also instrumental in developing the leglock game at Renzo's. As well as being one of my all time favourites instructors at a BJJ Globetrotters camp. :D
DBBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Some stories also importantly note Eddie Cummings was studying material by Ryan Hall, Reilly Bodycomb, and Scott Sonnon. Only the guys actually in the basement while it was being developed like Cummings, Danher, and Milam would be able to speak to the degree of influence, but given that Reilly and Scott's material came up well before even Dean Lister's KATCH system, it's likely an important facet.
The history that's been recorded around the modern leg lock renaissance is pretty interesting.
https://www.jiujitsutimes[...]d-history/
https://www.attacktheback[...]ath-squad/
https://www.newyorker.com[...]cience/amp
The history that's been recorded around the modern leg lock renaissance is pretty interesting.
https://www.jiujitsutimes[...]d-history/
https://www.attacktheback[...]ath-squad/
https://www.newyorker.com[...]cience/amp
DBBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I'm not sure Danaher has publically mentioned him much, but IIRC Aaron Milam was also instrumental in developing the leglock game at Renzo's. As well as being one of my all time favourites instructors at a BJJ Globetrotters camp. :D
It's in the JRE episode where Joe interviews Danaher. It's the source of the infamous "why would you ignore 50% of the human body" quote.
https://youtu.be/qkBXzkD6tis
https://youtu.be/qkBXzkD6tis
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
It's in the JRE episode where Joe interviews Danaher. It's the source of the infamous 'why would you ignore 50% of the human body' quote. https://youtu.be/qkBXzkD6tis
Ha, I'll have to take your word for it: I can't stand Rogan. Used to mute him back when I still watched the UFC and he first became one of the commentators. I still miss Jeff Blatnick (RIP). ;)
DBBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Rogan can absolutely be... Polarizing.
I also forgot one of my favorite videos on the history of BJJ: "And then came the Russians..."
http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]p;t=15m30s
I also forgot one of my favorite videos on the history of BJJ: "And then came the Russians..."
http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]p;t=15m30s
