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CBJJ and IBJFF
6 year(s) ago • 11304 views • 20 replies
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Sorry for the noddy question but can anyone explain what the relationship between the CBJJ and IBJJF is?
I'm interested because Demian Maia won gold as a purple belt at the 2000 CBJJ World Championships but i'm a bit confused what they are and there's no CBJJ wikipedia page. Is CBJJ a separate organisation to IBJJF or have they merged?
I'm interested because Demian Maia won gold as a purple belt at the 2000 CBJJ World Championships but i'm a bit confused what they are and there's no CBJJ wikipedia page. Is CBJJ a separate organisation to IBJJF or have they merged?
DBBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
CBJJ (Confederação Brasileira de Jiu-Jitsu, https://cbjj.com.br/) is the national governing body arm of the IBJJF in Brazil. They were both founded by Carlos Gracie Jr.
https://cbjj.com.br/history/
https://cbjj.com.br/history/
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
CBJJ (Confederação Brasileira de Jiu-Jitsu, https://cbjj.com.br/) is the national governing body arm of the IBJJF in Brazil. They were both founded by Carlos Gracie Jr. https://cbjj.com.br/history/
But how do they have a "world" championship if they are a national governing body? Do you know if they still run it, is is separate from the IBJJF world championship?
DBBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
"Governing body" was a poor choice of words on my part. The IBJJF (and based in their website the CBJJ also) is a privately-owned, for-profit organization. It's important to note that because it does mean that terms like "World's" are without real meaning. Individuals don't qualify at local/regional-level events to then go to Nationals to make a team, to then compete in an international circuit to qualify for Worlds (caveat, black belts do need 80 points to qualify unless they won as brown belts the previous year, but again, different - https://ibjjf.com/champio[...]ity/world/). We can't think of IBJJF events the way we would UWW or IJF events because they're different models. This doesn't mean IBJJF World's isn't the most prestigious gi tournament. It is. It's a substantially different model though.
The website notes the CBJJ holds competitions in Brazil, the US, and Asia, but all the calendar events are IBJJF looking at them, so I suspect it's just a weird overlap. They don't seem to have their own Worlds anymore that I can find looking at upcoming events. It looks like there's only IBJJF World's for both now.
The website notes the CBJJ holds competitions in Brazil, the US, and Asia, but all the calendar events are IBJJF looking at them, so I suspect it's just a weird overlap. They don't seem to have their own Worlds anymore that I can find looking at upcoming events. It looks like there's only IBJJF World's for both now.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Did IBJJF even exist/run Worlds back then? I mean the Worlds were in Brazil all the time before they switched to LA.
WJBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Did IBJJF even exist/run Worlds back then? I mean the Worlds were in Brazil all the time before they switched to LA.
I think your right. IBJJF wasn't founded until 2002
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I think your right. IBJJF wasn't founded until 2002
So Demain Maia winning the CBJJ worlds in 2000 (at purple) was as good as Gi competitions got at the time?
DBBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I would expect so. I can't think of anything that would have been a bigger gi tournament at that time.
TPBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
So Demain Maia winning the CBJJ worlds in 2000 (at purple) was as good as Gi competitions got at the time?
Yes.
Those were basically the "BJJ Worlds" at the time.
He is listed as winning the Purple Middleweight also in the IBJJF results page for "World Jiu-Jitsu Championship 2000", pretty sure it is this same (CBJJ) event: https://ibjjf.com/results[...]0-results/
edit: haha, looks like some of the Blue Belt winners that year included Roger Gracie, Fabricio Werdum & Mario Reis...
Legendary event where BJ Penn won his black belt division. Funny how I recognize most of the BB names placed that year (probably more than from 2019 Worlds...).
Those were basically the "BJJ Worlds" at the time.
He is listed as winning the Purple Middleweight also in the IBJJF results page for "World Jiu-Jitsu Championship 2000", pretty sure it is this same (CBJJ) event: https://ibjjf.com/results[...]0-results/
edit: haha, looks like some of the Blue Belt winners that year included Roger Gracie, Fabricio Werdum & Mario Reis...
Legendary event where BJ Penn won his black belt division. Funny how I recognize most of the BB names placed that year (probably more than from 2019 Worlds...).
Edited 6 year(s) ago
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
CBJJ also sanctioned the first ever European championship, in 1998, if I remember correctly. A lot of brazilians came over and many also competed in the open classes (-73kg and +73kg with all belts mixed, so the spans were quite a lot wider than today).
I don't think there was any more European championships before IBJJF arranged their first, but I might be wrong on that.
I don't think there was any more European championships before IBJJF arranged their first, but I might be wrong on that.
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The CBJJ was the first governing body and is now, as most people have pointed out, only managing things in Brazil. For everyone else it's done through the IBJJF. They were who you registered with to compete in the Pans and Worlds back in the day and who would give you the Black Belt Certification as well.
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Are there any "historical records" of CBJJ promoting anyone from brown to black belt? Ie not issuing a diploma confirming a 2:nd degree or higher BB promoted someone to BB but instead themselves (CBJJ) issuing the 0:th BB degree?
If that actually has happened, how were those decisions made? Was it some kind of board deciding, similar to The Council of Traveling Black Belts, which IBJJF (also controlled by Carlinhos) seems to have reacted very strongly against?
The indication I got was a senior black belt believing this to have happened in a case before IBJJF started, but was reluctant to tell more.
If that actually has happened, how were those decisions made? Was it some kind of board deciding, similar to The Council of Traveling Black Belts, which IBJJF (also controlled by Carlinhos) seems to have reacted very strongly against?
The indication I got was a senior black belt believing this to have happened in a case before IBJJF started, but was reluctant to tell more.
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I have now checked this with CBJJ, specifically asking (in portuguese) if this was something that had ever happened historically, and they were adamant that for an athlete to register as a black belt with them, a 2:nd degree black belt teacher must sign their registration form and graduation record. So no, the CBJJ does not (now or historically) promote anyone to black belt by themselves.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
Update: Yuki Nakai claims to have been awarded brown belt in 1998 and black belt in 1999 directly from IBJJF/CBJJ (one and the same organization before 2004, if I've understood things correctly) without any teacher having ever promoted him. While Relson simply told him to compete as a blue and then purple belt before that. At today's date, IBJJF lists him as a 6:th degree BB, which would mean a BB promotion before the 2004 separation of IBJJF from CBJJ.
If the above is true, that would mean that CBJJF didn't come forward with the truth when I explicitly asked them two years ago if they had ever promoted someone as an organization, without an actual promoting instructor having promoted them (I've now sent another mail, asking about the specific case).
That would also show the inconsistencies of CBJJ/IBJJF:s promotions and that they themselves have promoted to BB without an actual student-teacher-relation. Basically the same thing that they threw out Globetrotters from IBJJF over.
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]QfvlZBbx-E
If the above is true, that would mean that CBJJF didn't come forward with the truth when I explicitly asked them two years ago if they had ever promoted someone as an organization, without an actual promoting instructor having promoted them (I've now sent another mail, asking about the specific case).
That would also show the inconsistencies of CBJJ/IBJJF:s promotions and that they themselves have promoted to BB without an actual student-teacher-relation. Basically the same thing that they threw out Globetrotters from IBJJF over.
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]QfvlZBbx-E
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
Did IBJJF even exist/run Worlds back then? I mean the Worlds were in Brazil all the time before they switched to LA.
No.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
Good place to also tag that as far as I understand it, IBJJF just changed stripes rule for black belts from 2 to 3 years for first three and 3 to 5 for next three in 2012.
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
Good place to also tag that as far as I understand it, IBJJF just changed stripes rule for black belts from 2 to 3 years for first three and 3 to 5 for next three in 2012.
What is your source for that claim?
You can see the 2011 IBJJF requirements for the BB degrees (3-3-3-5-5-5...) here: http://web.archive.org/we[...]uation.htm
And if you want to go back all the way to the start of IBJJF in 2004, they linked their whole page to CBJJ, with these requirements for the BB degrees: http://web.archive.org/we[...]rad-se.htm
Interesting to note there is that back then, the required time before BB was five full years, not 4½ years.
You can see the 2011 IBJJF requirements for the BB degrees (3-3-3-5-5-5...) here: http://web.archive.org/we[...]uation.htm
And if you want to go back all the way to the start of IBJJF in 2004, they linked their whole page to CBJJ, with these requirements for the BB degrees: http://web.archive.org/we[...]rad-se.htm
Interesting to note there is that back then, the required time before BB was five full years, not 4½ years.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
Was based on hearsay. Went digging and found you are right, but it was 2012 when IBJJF started to enforce degrees starting from registering with them.
Still, some lineages in 2000s were promoting a stripe in 2 years for active coaches/competitiors and some still do.
Still, some lineages in 2000s were promoting a stripe in 2 years for active coaches/competitiors and some still do.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
Still, some lineages in 2000s were promoting a stripe in 2 years for active coaches/competitiors and some still do.
Yes, the Helio-era Gracie Academy used to do this, and I frequently see people on beltchecker getting verified with only 2 years or less between stripes.
PBlack beltVerified
8 month(s) ago
I started Jiu Jitsu in 1996 and my Master in Brazil is Francisco Mansur, who was responsible for the creation of the belt system, which previously consisted of only white and dark blue belts for instructors, and the first federation known as Federação de Jiu-Jitsu da Guanabara.
As the Gracie family began to spread Jiu Jitsu throughout Brazil, the art often blended with Judo, including both Kodokan and non-Kodokan styles, in different states of our country. During this time, many practitioners who were already black belts in Judo transitioned to Jiu Jitsu after meeting the Gracie brothers. A key example is Otavio de Almeida, a precursor of Jiu Jitsu in Sao Paulo and a student of Gastao Gracie, who took over the academy when Gastao returned to Rio de Janeiro.
Because of this expansion, Brazil had many small state federations. Eventually, Carlinhos recognized that the situation was disorganized and began the formal organization of BJJ, which was a very important step. However, some high-level practitioners did not accept these changes or later disagreed with the high costs and the lack of financial return for athletes. This led to the creation of other organizations such as CBJJE and CBJJO.
In the case of Demian Maia, he is a legitimate World Champion in the Gi and ADCC, which is the premier title for No-Gi. It is also important to clarify that CBJJ and IBJJF are the same entity, simply operating as different branches like a head office and its international representative.
As the Gracie family began to spread Jiu Jitsu throughout Brazil, the art often blended with Judo, including both Kodokan and non-Kodokan styles, in different states of our country. During this time, many practitioners who were already black belts in Judo transitioned to Jiu Jitsu after meeting the Gracie brothers. A key example is Otavio de Almeida, a precursor of Jiu Jitsu in Sao Paulo and a student of Gastao Gracie, who took over the academy when Gastao returned to Rio de Janeiro.
Because of this expansion, Brazil had many small state federations. Eventually, Carlinhos recognized that the situation was disorganized and began the formal organization of BJJ, which was a very important step. However, some high-level practitioners did not accept these changes or later disagreed with the high costs and the lack of financial return for athletes. This led to the creation of other organizations such as CBJJE and CBJJO.
In the case of Demian Maia, he is a legitimate World Champion in the Gi and ADCC, which is the premier title for No-Gi. It is also important to clarify that CBJJ and IBJJF are the same entity, simply operating as different branches like a head office and its international representative.
PBlack beltVerified
8 month(s) ago
Regarding the stripes on the black belt, Francisco Mansur says that they are meant for Professors, not for competitors. If you do not teach, Helio Gracie used to say that you do not need them. From brown belt until you complete your first year as a black belt, you are considered an instructor, and only after that first year do you receive the white bars and officially become a Professor.
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
8 month(s) ago
I started Jiu Jitsu in 1996 and my Master in Brazil is Francisco Mansur, who was responsible for the creation of the belt system, which previously consisted of only white and dark blue belts for instructors, and the first federation known as Federação de Jiu-Jitsu da Guanabara. As the Gracie family began to spread Jiu Jitsu throughout Brazil, the art often blended with Judo, including both Kodokan and non-Kodokan styles, in different states of our country. During this time, many practitioners who were already black belts in Judo transitioned to Jiu Jitsu after meeting the Gracie brothers. A key example is Otavio de Almeida, a precursor of Jiu Jitsu in Sao Paulo and a student of Gastao Gracie, who took over the academy when Gastao returned to Rio de Janeiro. Because of this expansion, Brazil had many small state federations. Eventually, Carlinhos recognized that the situation was disorganized and began the formal organization of BJJ, which was a very important step. However, some high-level practitioners did not accept these changes or later disagreed with the high costs and the lack of financial return for athletes. This led to the creation of other organizations such as CBJJE and CBJJO. In the case of Demian Maia, he is a legitimate World Champion in the Gi and ADCC, which is the premier title for No-Gi. It is also important to clarify that CBJJ and IBJJF are the same entity, simply operating as different branches like a head office and its international representative.
The IBJJF is a for profit company.
The statement the CBJJ and IBJJF are “the same” is troubling on many levels.
Jiu-Jitsu, and its governance, are not a possession owned by anyone.
The statement the CBJJ and IBJJF are “the same” is troubling on many levels.
Jiu-Jitsu, and its governance, are not a possession owned by anyone.
PBlack beltVerified
8 month(s) ago
The IBJJF is a for profit company. The statement the CBJJ and IBJJF are “the same” is troubling on many levels. Jiu-Jitsu, and its governance, are not a possession owned by anyone.
The CBJJ and IBJJF are for-profit companies, not government bodies like in Judo. While they don't 'own' Jiu-Jitsu, they play a vital role in providing a global standard for the sport. However, many elite black belts and MMA finishers remain unregistered without losing their legitimacy. It is also worth noting that many practitioners choose other federations that are more affordable and accessible, proving that while standards are important, no single company holds a monopoly over the art.
