Long winded question coming up, seeking advice: So i've been training about a year and a half, i feel i've been exposed to a lot in that time. I've had MMA fights, trained with 10th planet leg lockers, done various camps which are mainly Gi based. I've had 31 matches which were a mixture of Gi and NoGi. I'm not claiming to be good at any of it, just saying that i've had a taster of a lot of things. I'm starting to categorise attacking moves into: 1. Things I do in competition - things i'm relatively good at and practice frequently, 2. Things I do in sparring against people equal or better than me - these are things that i'm comfortable with but want to reliably pull off in training before using in comps, 3. Things I only do against a co-operating training partner or when sparring with people weaker than me. Currently arm bars exist in the 3rd category. With the exception of an armbar from scarf, i don't like the damn things. They tend to result in me losing the entire position and some people have stupidly flexible shoulders. I fully admit i'm not good at them, but fabricio werdum is and vinny magalhães was able to sit out his armbar for over a minute. Watching EBI overtimes and they just seem quite escapable, even when you are good at them. I can't deny they win a lot of matches, even in MMA, (attached) but i think that's also due to the fact you can hit them from so many places. So my question is, is an arm bar an essential ingredient to a (top) gameplan or is it just a good part of some gameplans? Should i force myself to become good at them or is it ok to focus on kimura's and chokes which i have way more success with?

I think that if you study a way to improve your armbar, your whole jiu-jitsu will improve... Just take it as a study period... For example you can focus on how to not lose position when attempting an armbar (armbar from S mount) and be able to transform it in a wristlock, triangle chocke, armbar to the opposite arm. Personally, I try armbar from closed guard, and when the opponent is more experienced I know it won't work, but I just try it to transform it In a wrist lock, sweep or a triangle, basing on his reaction... I also try armbar from S mount, but I don't fall on my back, I just keep my top mount position (I train a lot with the balance ball) , if I see that the opponent would fight as a crazy gorilla for his arm, I just change the attack in something more secure, like Kimura from north south...

In my experience, white belts often don't like armbars because they leave too much space when doing them, resulting in losing position, which therefore puts them off going for armbars. You had a bunch of MMA experience before you started BJJ, IIRC, so can't remember your total training time, but it could be that (especially as you mentioned you keep losing position)? Also depends on your goals. If you primarily care about winning comps, it makes sense to get even better at what is already winning you matches. If you primarily care about getting good at BJJ, then it makes sense to work on your weak areas. If it helps, armbars were apparently by far the highest percentage sub, when Jeff from Dirty White Belt analysed 4000 matches at US Grappling events: https://www.dirtywhitebel[...]grappling/

A properly done armbar highlights a lot of good traits in your jiu jitsu. Separation of uke's elbow from their torso, occupying that space tightly by bringing your hip in so that they cannot recover their arm. Controlling the whole movement without losing balance or getting folded (if from the bottom), breaking their grip while they defend and then applying leverage properly in the right direction. There's a lot going in when you do a successful armbar. By the time you get to purple belt, you should have that working well. So yeah, to me it's an essential part of jiu jitsu.

That's a good point I hadn't actually considered. A weak armbar probably indicates weakness that relate to other submissions (e.g. leaving too much space). There's a lot of parts to an arm bar, which is why I dislike them. There just seem to be easier ways to submit people. But the complexity is a good reason not to neglect them in training.

The submission stats have been rubbing me the wrong way A LONG TIME. RNC (and bow and arrow in gi) ergo THAT'S the most important submission to practice. NO IT ISN'T! THERE'S A BIAS THERE! Those subs can ONLY come from a specific established position. That position is more than often established when also OTHER means of dominance / superiority are established. ERGO that's not the true 'best sub' but it just happens when one person is OVERALL better (in that instance). YES obviously learning how to move and advance towards the back is very important. Maybe MOST important. But stop talking about the RNC as 'THE BEST' / 'MOST IMPORTANT' submission in sport context. It's a false dichotomy. So in summary regards that thread: YES, RNC is probably the best 'first' sub to learn and everyone needs to know that. HOWEVER it makes way more sense to practice more armbars than specifically RNCs.

But does it make more sense to practice more armbars than kimuras, if one has an affinity for kimuras and a disdain for armbars?

Well they are kinda well-connected - you need to have your favourite but if you fancy arms then you need both bent (shoulder) armlocks and straight armlocks... But to drive the previous point home: Let's say you got submitted first time by someone. Which of the following is more likely: You get submitted by leg/armlock/guillotine and you think 'God dammit, this person could've probably also have done an RNC on me if they chose so.' You get submitted by RNC and you think 'God dammit, this person could've probably also have done any other submission on me if they chose so.' If you want to practice submissions you want to practice submissions that happen in TRANSITIONS and / or come from inferior positions with most success. These are the submissions to invest most of your time in.

Well to be specific, the armbars i don't like are spinning arms from side control and any armbar from mount that requires me to leave mount (fall back) to finish it. For all intentions and purposes, I don't 'fight' off the bottom, i get why people who do would like armbars. If i wanted to attack during a scramble or transition then i'd prefer to target a leg lock. My question was me wondering whether armbars are an essential part of all major strategies (guard player, top player and leg locker) or not. I don't mind straight bars from side control or scarf and i don't risk losing the position to try them.

any armbar from mount that requires me to leave mount (fall back) to finish it.

You don't have to fall back. :) https://www.instagram.com[...]Q9OdvnV0U/

You don't have to fall back. :) https://www.instagram.com[...]Q9OdvnV0U/

That's an interesting one, not seen that before. I'd certainly try it when we can train again. How does it work for you - do you feel balanced and secure throughout? Do you use it against roughly equal opponents?

My god that gi! Is that you? How many hideous gis do you own? :)

Armbars, or pretty much all joint locks, don't stop an assailant who's highly motivated, intoxicated or mentally deranged. There may be permanent injury, yes, but do those moves really incapacitate them? No. Also, even in a self defense situation there are legal ramifications to actively causing injury with joint locks. Therefore, positional control and chokes are king, if you want the most bang for your buck.

I just always end up sitting on someone's face. It just feels like a pretty good natural position. Also seems to reduce their motivation.

I love armbars, i once submitted adam wardzinski in a comp by armbar i also got an sub of the year award for submitting one of the toughest germany mma fighters by armbar in mma a long time ago i think i might be qualified to answer your question... lol on a second note i think gordon ryan only escaped craig jones armbar at EBI because he accepted quite some damage to his arm and because craig is a very nice guy. i spend a little time with craig before he got famous he really seemed to be a genuinly nice guy. As for werdum hes great but he is pretty oldschool and vinny is quite modern with his jiu jitsu and also willing to take damage so it was quite likely for that escape he did although it still was epic. That said, if you look at it precisely all limb submissions are inferiror to neck submissions for example because you can sacrifice a limb but you cant sacrifice your neck otherwise you are done for. Keep that in mind. sooo.... for me personally armbars are the shit. BUT i dont think they are essential. i think nothing is really essential, it all depends on your taste of course its better to be versatile but i believe its still possible to be even world champ with just a few dozen moves (and i say that even though i am someone who specializes in a wide array of moves) its really just about your taste also in my first 2-3 years i didnt have too much success with armbars i believe since they are pretty simple you need exceptional knowledge about them to make them work most people know how to defend most armbars since they are very basic and mostly taught in a basic way but as a armbar nerd i know that armbar is probably the most verstile sub in bjj imagine it like this: normal armbar = jab in boxing now think about awkward angles in boxing, you can punch in all countless kinds of weird angles of course you gotta be high level to knock people out punching from awkward angles but if you can do it its pretty hard to defend same goes for armbars in bjj just last year i had a few tough matches against a blackbelt from belgium or Netherlands i believe, he is also some kinda fitness instructor and it was gi matches with rather short timelimit which means he gave me quite some hell... i lost once by points, once a very close ref decision and once i got him as he was defending a basic armbar and i turned it into an unorthodox armbar i would consider him quite a high level european blackbelt as he was able to beat me before but after that one he even asked me what happened as he had a hard time comprehending my attack... you can go pretty far with armbars but i believe really excelling at them is something that you can have later on in your jiu jitsu journey, you need details which hardly anyone can teach you. you get them by doing tons of armbars in all kinds of angles while training. probably the danaher armbar dvd has also good insight or you are very lucky and find a world class instructor for it. Armbars are good because they are almost always there from so many positions, its very anoying cause it constantly stops your opponents flow and makes him defend, if you dont like them you can also just fake them to setup other things but if you just hate them well skip them there are so many other things you can do either way try using stuff that fits together. for example armbar goes well with triangle but triangle alone is still a good move and can be combined well with some sweeps possibilities are endless just keep going and do what works and what you like considering the fall back thing if it doesnt work for you dont do it, look for other ways to armbar someone after all jiu jitsu is mostly about finding what works best for your body type and personality if you like to stay on top armbars arent the best choice as fully commiting to one is (almost) always also giving up top control at least to a certain degree if you still wanna get into it and have a hard time try triangle armbars first, those are uasually stronger and harder to escape and it doesnt really matter whos on top or anything once its locked. the triangle doesnt have to be a nice one, you just gotta put his head and one shoulder between your legs and bend his arm over your thigh/hip also ask your training partners to armbar you alot, escaping them often shows you how to do them properly so people cant escape them... if all of that doesnt help fuck it jiu jitsu is way to vast to worry about one tech things come in time by themselves if you are persisten and consistent, just dont worry if my text is tldr thats also fine, sometimes i just got too much jits inside of me and it suddenly bursts out of me just like that