Rules for main forums
- Be nice
- No advertisement
- No events
- No fundraisers
- No topics asking for votes
- Only posts related to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
NoGi Meta
6 year(s) ago • 3572 views • 6 replies
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
So John Danaher described the meta of BJJ as a 4 step system comprising of:
1. Take the opponent to the ground
2. Pass the legs
3. Go through the hierarchy of pins
4. Submissions
If you assume that is indeed the meta of BJJ, at what point would you say the meta changes?
For example, is the meta of NoGi the same? Or how about NoGi sub-only? I mean you could watch an entire EBI event and not see a single point-scoring takedown and there would be plenty of submissions that happened without passing the legs or pinning your opponent: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]0&t=3s
1. Take the opponent to the ground
2. Pass the legs
3. Go through the hierarchy of pins
4. Submissions
If you assume that is indeed the meta of BJJ, at what point would you say the meta changes?
For example, is the meta of NoGi the same? Or how about NoGi sub-only? I mean you could watch an entire EBI event and not see a single point-scoring takedown and there would be plenty of submissions that happened without passing the legs or pinning your opponent: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]0&t=3s
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
True meta depends on the specific ruleset like you pointed out. I think Danaher's that blueprint is too generic to be useful beyond the obvious.
DCBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
This is a very basic system to breakdown BJJ and is almost completely aimed at competitions with a point system.
If it were a sub only most people skip takedowns including some of JD's most dangerous students.
And if it where a SD situation and I had a definite way to finish a fight and walk away unharmed to inform the police your damn right I'd skip step 1, 2 and 3.
Example, everyone in NZ knows how to takle because of rugby, it's the nations sport and it is drilled into the psyche of everybody... To the point where, in NZ, BJJ coaches spend a good chunk of time training people not to drop the head and/or put their heads on the outside of their opponents hips... Which coincidently is a perfect way to guillotine a dipshit at the pub who decides he wants to hurt you. But then... If this doesn't work out and they do tackle you JD's system kicks in... Its not really JD's system it's just the BJJ system.
TD - SWEEP - PASS LEGS/ GUARD - POSITIONAL CONTROL/ PIN - SUB.
OR.
TAKEN DOWN - GUARD RECOVERY - SWEEP - POSITIONAL CONTROL/ PIN - SUB.
If it were a sub only most people skip takedowns including some of JD's most dangerous students.
And if it where a SD situation and I had a definite way to finish a fight and walk away unharmed to inform the police your damn right I'd skip step 1, 2 and 3.
Example, everyone in NZ knows how to takle because of rugby, it's the nations sport and it is drilled into the psyche of everybody... To the point where, in NZ, BJJ coaches spend a good chunk of time training people not to drop the head and/or put their heads on the outside of their opponents hips... Which coincidently is a perfect way to guillotine a dipshit at the pub who decides he wants to hurt you. But then... If this doesn't work out and they do tackle you JD's system kicks in... Its not really JD's system it's just the BJJ system.
TD - SWEEP - PASS LEGS/ GUARD - POSITIONAL CONTROL/ PIN - SUB.
OR.
TAKEN DOWN - GUARD RECOVERY - SWEEP - POSITIONAL CONTROL/ PIN - SUB.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
True meta depends on the specific ruleset like you pointed out. I think Danaher's that blueprint is too generic to be useful beyond the obvious.
Brutal but true. That was actually the first thing i ever saw of him, before i'd even heard of Gordon Ryan or DDS etc and i remember thinking that scene was like the most excruciating game of 'guess what i'm thinking' ever. However, he does make some profound posts of facebook on a regular basis, this just wasn't his finest moment.
BNPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I think Keenan Cornelius said it best on the Matburn podcast (I believe it was the ADCC recap) that no gi is "imploding" -- his words -- in terms of such a strong emphasis on wrestling and leg locks. I think Implosion is a bit of a strong term, however I think that the available technical routes to victory are broadly 1) takedowns leading to the back 2) leg locking 3) half guard passing oriented tactics. With respect to the no gi "implosion" he was referring to competing at various ADCC events through the years.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I think Keenan Cornelius said it best on the Matburn podcast (I believe it was the ADCC recap) that no gi is 'imploding' -- his words -- in terms of such a strong emphasis on wrestling and leg locks. I think Implosion is a bit of a strong term, however I think that the available technical routes to victory are broadly 1) takedowns leading to the back 2) leg locking 3) half guard passing oriented tactics. With respect to the no gi 'implosion' he was referring to competing at various ADCC events through the years.
Yeah so he's saying the meta changes between Gi and NoGi, and at different belt levels. I agree with everything he says in this segment except one thing. I don't agree that you see the full spectrum of BJJ in Gi IBJJF rules. Statistically, less than 1 in 10 matches have any takedown a lot (at black belt), there are less guard passes than sweeps and mount submissions are virtually non-existent. So for all intention and purposes, you 'never' see Danaher's 4 step process there.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]5u3gmDm9iU
Video: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]5u3gmDm9iU
Edited 6 year(s) ago
BNPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I don't agree that you see the full spectrum of BJJ in Gi IBJJF rules. Statistically, less than 1 in 10 matches have any takedown a lot (at black belt), there are less guard passes than sweeps and mount submissions are virtually non-existent. So for all intention and purposes, you 'never' see Danaher's 4 step process there. Video: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]5u3gmDm9iU
Yea I mean I think you are missing the point of "Danaher's 4-step process" -- he was explaining in VERY broad strokes *how* you would use jiu jitsu to take someone on, and then where leg locks fit into that process.
