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It's not like Chess
6 year(s) ago • 5618 views • 57 replies
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
BJJ isn't like Chess so stop saying it is. BJJ would be like chess if:
- Doing cardio before a chess tournament gave you 2 moves for every 1 your opponent has and dieting gave you 5 extra pieces at the start of the match,
- If different chess pieces varied in weight so that certain moves were physically harder to do than others, and your queen was covered in razor blades such that it literally hurt your fingers to do moves that involved her,
- If you weren't allowed to move certain pieces without doing a handstand first,
- If chess had about 6 fundamentally different rulesets and the most common one didn't allow you to use your Bishop or sit with your legs crossed.
So all in all, it's got about as much in common as a car and a horse.
- Doing cardio before a chess tournament gave you 2 moves for every 1 your opponent has and dieting gave you 5 extra pieces at the start of the match,
- If different chess pieces varied in weight so that certain moves were physically harder to do than others, and your queen was covered in razor blades such that it literally hurt your fingers to do moves that involved her,
- If you weren't allowed to move certain pieces without doing a handstand first,
- If chess had about 6 fundamentally different rulesets and the most common one didn't allow you to use your Bishop or sit with your legs crossed.
So all in all, it's got about as much in common as a car and a horse.
SCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I'm not saying I disagree, but it's clear that this has really been bugging you ; ]
BNPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I have noticed that when training with white belts or blue belts without as much experience they have a tendency to fall into a fallacy of "turn-based jiu jitsu".... If I can do 9 moves without you doing one, I'm going to do it.
SCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I have noticed that when training with white belts or blue belts without as much experience they have a tendency to fall into a fallacy of 'turn-based jiu jitsu'.... If I can do 9 moves without you doing one, I'm going to do it.
That's definitely a good way to describe it.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I'm not saying I disagree, but it's clear that this has really been bugging you ; ]
You're not wrong. I've lost days of my life correcting people on the internet who keep repeating it
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I have noticed that when training with white belts or blue belts without as much experience they have a tendency to fall into a fallacy of 'turn-based jiu jitsu'.... If I can do 9 moves without you doing one, I'm going to do it.
Good observation, i think it reflects the way most are taught - "you'll get side control and then they will turn into you, so then you attack with the D'Arce and then they will grab your hand..."
JMBlue beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
having competed in both, I agree 100%. It's more like a real-time strategy game; you're solving problems on the fly. You don't get 10 minutes to think of your next move. It does bear some similarities at a superficial level, e.g. memorising techniques (openings), overall basic strategies and plans of attack (pins, forks), but yeah nah overall not as similar as we'd like to think.
That's why I suck at BJJ. I also suck at Starcraft.
Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
GFBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
BJJ isn't like Chess so stop saying it is. BJJ would be like chess if: - Doing cardio before a chess tournament gave you 2 moves for every 1 your opponent has and dieting gave you 5 extra pieces at the start of the match, - If different chess pieces varied in weight so that certain moves were physically harder to do than others, and your queen was covered in razor blades such that it literally hurt your fingers to do moves that involved her, - If you weren't allowed to move certain pieces without doing a handstand first, - If chess had about 6 fundamentally different rulesets and the most common one didn't allow you to use your Bishop or sit with your legs crossed. So all in all, it's got about as much in common as a car and a horse.
Alright, White Knight in defense of the analogy coming in!
“All models are wrong, some are useful”
We could adapt that to analogies.
Let’s steelman the Chess Analogy a bit first;
The more appropriate image is that it is “kinetic chess”;
Clearly adding an element, and indicating that it's not supposed to be a one to one mapping.
Things in common :
- Favorite opening moves
- Almost infinite complexity before engagement to manageable decision paths as the game goes on, reduced to single options towards the end, and none at the checkmate.
- drawing the opponent into your game
- Forcing your opponent to react (gaining tempo)
- Pattern recognition
- bait, traps, dilemma
- Winning battles your opponent doesn’t know are happening
- Analyzing your opponent’s game (real time or previous matches)
We could also say :
Business and Poker have *nothing* in common!! You don’t have a set of physical cards in the board room!
Business and military strategy have *nothing* in common! OODA loop my ass! We’re not shooting arrows or bullets in the marketing department.
I’d say relax, it’s just an analogy, a map, a model, it might help some people relate.
like this Marcelo Garcia black belt who is also a chess master and definitely sees a cross-over, at least in the path required to mastering either or both:
https://www.joshwaitzkin.[...]e-training
edit : perhaps the Chess analogy is least meaningful when there's a huge discrepancy in size and/or experience, and most relevant when two high-level black-belts in the same weight division are constantly fighting mini grip and hip positioning battles, denying their opponent's next perceived move with a pre-emptive weight shift, etc. that sort of thing.
250 lbs brown belt gorilla vs 125 belt blue belt: yeah, not much Kinetic Chess going on there
Keenan vs Meregali in the gi... a bit more Kinetic Chess going on there
“All models are wrong, some are useful”
We could adapt that to analogies.
Let’s steelman the Chess Analogy a bit first;
The more appropriate image is that it is “kinetic chess”;
Clearly adding an element, and indicating that it's not supposed to be a one to one mapping.
Things in common :
- Favorite opening moves
- Almost infinite complexity before engagement to manageable decision paths as the game goes on, reduced to single options towards the end, and none at the checkmate.
- drawing the opponent into your game
- Forcing your opponent to react (gaining tempo)
- Pattern recognition
- bait, traps, dilemma
- Winning battles your opponent doesn’t know are happening
- Analyzing your opponent’s game (real time or previous matches)
We could also say :
Business and Poker have *nothing* in common!! You don’t have a set of physical cards in the board room!
Business and military strategy have *nothing* in common! OODA loop my ass! We’re not shooting arrows or bullets in the marketing department.
I’d say relax, it’s just an analogy, a map, a model, it might help some people relate.
like this Marcelo Garcia black belt who is also a chess master and definitely sees a cross-over, at least in the path required to mastering either or both:
https://www.joshwaitzkin.[...]e-training
edit : perhaps the Chess analogy is least meaningful when there's a huge discrepancy in size and/or experience, and most relevant when two high-level black-belts in the same weight division are constantly fighting mini grip and hip positioning battles, denying their opponent's next perceived move with a pre-emptive weight shift, etc. that sort of thing.
250 lbs brown belt gorilla vs 125 belt blue belt: yeah, not much Kinetic Chess going on there
Keenan vs Meregali in the gi... a bit more Kinetic Chess going on there
Edited 6 year(s) ago
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Alright, White Knight in defense of the analogy coming in! “All models are wrong, some are useful” We could adapt that to analogies. Let’s steelman the Chess Analogy a bit first; The more appropriate image is that it is “kinetic chess”; Clearly adding an element, and indicating that it's not supposed to be a one to one mapping. Things in common : - Favorite opening moves - Almost infinite complexity before engagement to manageable decision paths as the game goes on, reduced to single options towards the end, and none at the checkmate. - drawing the opponent into your game - Forcing your opponent to react (gaining tempo) - Pattern recognition - Winning battles your opponent doesn’t know are happening - Analyzing your opponent’s game (real time or previous matches) We could also say : Business and Poker have *nothing* in common!! You don’t have a set of physical cards in the board room! Business and military strategy have *nothing* in common! OODA loop my ass! We’re not shooting arrows or bullets in the marketing department. I’d say relax, it’s just an analogy, a map, a model, it might help some people relate. like this Marcelo Garcia black belt who is also a chess master and definitely sees a cross-over, at least in the path required to mastering either or both: https://www.joshwaitzkin.[...]e-training
All your "things in common" also apply to American Football, real Football (aka Soccer), Rugby, Ice Hockey, pretty much any complex sport. My take on these things is to say the opposite and ask yourself if a reasonably intelligent person would ever consider the opposite viable. So would any reasonably intelligent person doing any complex sport think they shouldn't be doing pattern recognition, or that they should be going into their opponents game as opposed to imposing their own, does anyone not think it's valuable to analyse their opponents game...
The bottom line is that you can teach a computer to play Chess but you could never teach it to Jiu Jitsu. Chess has a lot of constraints that BJJ just doesn't have. We're more like Poker if anything, where there are certain probabilities that make certain moves more or less likely, but ultimately the person could be bluffing and about to heel hook you. Where I train, there are people that have just perfected a mount escape into a heel hook to the point where their regular partners just refuse to try and mount them. Likewise, there are people who bait triangle attacks to get guard passes. These are high risk strategies, but whether they pay off or not depends on variables that simply don't exist in chess.
The bottom line is that you can teach a computer to play Chess but you could never teach it to Jiu Jitsu. Chess has a lot of constraints that BJJ just doesn't have. We're more like Poker if anything, where there are certain probabilities that make certain moves more or less likely, but ultimately the person could be bluffing and about to heel hook you. Where I train, there are people that have just perfected a mount escape into a heel hook to the point where their regular partners just refuse to try and mount them. Likewise, there are people who bait triangle attacks to get guard passes. These are high risk strategies, but whether they pay off or not depends on variables that simply don't exist in chess.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
BNPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
“All models are wrong, some are useful”
I like it. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
![Slideyfoot [jun]](userimg/5e25cf311adfd.jpg){kind=small}
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
"It's like chess" is what most people say when they actually mean "it's complex".
GFBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
All your "things in common" also apply to American Football, real Football (aka Soccer), Rugby, Ice Hockey, pretty much any complex sport. My take on these things is to say the opposite and ask yourself if a reasonably intelligent person would ever consider the opposite viable. So would any reasonably intelligent person doing any complex sport think they shouldn't be doing pattern recognition, or that they should be going into their opponents game as opposed to imposing their own, does anyone not think it's valuable to analyse their opponents game...
You mention :
American Football
Soccer
Rugby
Ice Hockey
...
these are all team-based... and actual physical sports.
the whole point of the Kinetic Chess analogy is that Chess is a mental activity.
anecdote about 1 vs 1 sports :
I actually had a great discussion with friends playing racket sports about the similarities in skill acquisition and strategy between these and submission grappling.
It would actually probably be a good didactic method to onboard new people to Jiu Jitsu by making analogies to something they are familiar with, be it Chess or Rugby or Squash.
I feel like the goal post shifted a bit between the statement : "It's not like Chess", and "well, of course it is on all these obvious qualities you mentioned, but so is Football"
Is the argument that there is *nothing* in Chess that can be a useful analogy to grappling?
I think we agree that's not true.
Is the argument that there is nothing *uniquely* Chess-like in grappling, because those similarities are also present in Rugby or Go or Starcraft, Poker?
Personally I think there are even elements of Poker in Jiu Jitsu; thinking in terms of odds, taking risk with EV+ payof, some elements of hiding your game or intentions.
we could imagine of continuum or quadrants of "Grappling is like this other human activity mentally" and "grappling is like this other human activity physically"
I think Chess would be reasonably high, and indeed like someone pointed Starcraft would be even higher (even to the point of managing your main resource : gas).
BJJ is like Kinetic Chess
BJJ is like Ice Hockey, except your team is made of your limbs
BJJ is like monopoly... <<< hard case to make here, close to zero decision making there
BJJ is like Tetris... <<< hmmm, you must reach a state of flow... work with what is given to you ^^
And when everything "clicks" into place, like Tetrominoes... that's it... Tetris, Life, snug fit or your arm on their carotid... it all clicks together ^^
Edit :
- BJJ is like kinetic chess
- American Football is like kinetic chess
- Ice Hockey is like kinetic chess
All these can be true.
"BJJ is like Kinetic Chess" : may not be smart, original or insightful, but it's not false
As Can mentioned, "Chess" is an easy placeholder for "it's more complex than it looks", if some folks like to say it, let them be.
自他共栄
http://kodokanjudoinstitu[...]ita-kyoei/
harmony and cooperation ^^
American Football
Soccer
Rugby
Ice Hockey
...
these are all team-based... and actual physical sports.
the whole point of the Kinetic Chess analogy is that Chess is a mental activity.
anecdote about 1 vs 1 sports :
I actually had a great discussion with friends playing racket sports about the similarities in skill acquisition and strategy between these and submission grappling.
It would actually probably be a good didactic method to onboard new people to Jiu Jitsu by making analogies to something they are familiar with, be it Chess or Rugby or Squash.
I feel like the goal post shifted a bit between the statement : "It's not like Chess", and "well, of course it is on all these obvious qualities you mentioned, but so is Football"
Is the argument that there is *nothing* in Chess that can be a useful analogy to grappling?
I think we agree that's not true.
Is the argument that there is nothing *uniquely* Chess-like in grappling, because those similarities are also present in Rugby or Go or Starcraft, Poker?
Personally I think there are even elements of Poker in Jiu Jitsu; thinking in terms of odds, taking risk with EV+ payof, some elements of hiding your game or intentions.
we could imagine of continuum or quadrants of "Grappling is like this other human activity mentally" and "grappling is like this other human activity physically"
I think Chess would be reasonably high, and indeed like someone pointed Starcraft would be even higher (even to the point of managing your main resource : gas).
BJJ is like Kinetic Chess
BJJ is like Ice Hockey, except your team is made of your limbs
BJJ is like monopoly... <<< hard case to make here, close to zero decision making there
BJJ is like Tetris... <<< hmmm, you must reach a state of flow... work with what is given to you ^^
And when everything "clicks" into place, like Tetrominoes... that's it... Tetris, Life, snug fit or your arm on their carotid... it all clicks together ^^
Edit :
- BJJ is like kinetic chess
- American Football is like kinetic chess
- Ice Hockey is like kinetic chess
All these can be true.
"BJJ is like Kinetic Chess" : may not be smart, original or insightful, but it's not false
As Can mentioned, "Chess" is an easy placeholder for "it's more complex than it looks", if some folks like to say it, let them be.
自他共栄
http://kodokanjudoinstitu[...]ita-kyoei/
harmony and cooperation ^^
Edited 6 year(s) ago
BNPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
'It's like chess' is what most people say when they actually mean 'it's complex'.
Agreed.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Is the argument that there is nothing *uniquely* Chess-like in grappling, because those similarities are also present in Rugby or Go or Starcraft, Poker?
Yes.
Regarding explaining BJJ to new people, i would say that BJJ is the study of principles of human movement. I would acknowledge that statement won't make sense until they know BJJ better, so we'd better start with some monkey-see, monkey-do techniques. But once they get fed up of being shown a technique, practising it, doing it to a white belt and then have it easily countered by a colour belt, then they will become interested in the underlying concepts that make anything work in BJJ. As opposed to hoping that every conceivable situation you'll face will be something you've drilled.
This does make it different to other complex sports. American football doesn't require you to improvise to the same extent. Rugby requires so much improvisation that attention to detail is simply not as high (e.g. some positions will probably never throw exactly the same pass twice).
Regarding explaining BJJ to new people, i would say that BJJ is the study of principles of human movement. I would acknowledge that statement won't make sense until they know BJJ better, so we'd better start with some monkey-see, monkey-do techniques. But once they get fed up of being shown a technique, practising it, doing it to a white belt and then have it easily countered by a colour belt, then they will become interested in the underlying concepts that make anything work in BJJ. As opposed to hoping that every conceivable situation you'll face will be something you've drilled.
This does make it different to other complex sports. American football doesn't require you to improvise to the same extent. Rugby requires so much improvisation that attention to detail is simply not as high (e.g. some positions will probably never throw exactly the same pass twice).
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
'It's like chess' is what most people say when they actually mean 'it's complex'.
I should have just written this as the OP!
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
We are debating an analogy.. I think the original idea of the kinetic chess idea was over the sacrifice you might make at times to implement a broader based strategy and that it is a more cerebral game than striking
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Who cares.. Just train
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Who cares.. Just train
Not sure what the point of being on a forum is if we're not here to debate points of view!
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Not sure what the point of being on a forum is if we're not here to debate points of view!
Why are you yelling? Nothing wrong with a different point of view at all.
In the end it doesn't matter because statistically you'll probably end up quitting once you get to the blue belt or when you realize none of this stuff matters and feel disillusioned by it all or life gets in the way. If you make it to purple, brown and black you will look back at this stuff and realize how silly it all is. Worse is if you incur a serious injury that sidelines you for a long time or permanently. Training consistently and competing (if you enjoy it are all that matters).
In the end it doesn't matter because statistically you'll probably end up quitting once you get to the blue belt or when you realize none of this stuff matters and feel disillusioned by it all or life gets in the way. If you make it to purple, brown and black you will look back at this stuff and realize how silly it all is. Worse is if you incur a serious injury that sidelines you for a long time or permanently. Training consistently and competing (if you enjoy it are all that matters).
Edited 6 year(s) ago
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Why are you yelling? Nothing wrong with a different point of view at all. In the end it doesn't matter because statistically you'll probably end up quitting once you get to the blue belt or when you realize none of this stuff matters and feel disillusioned by it all or life gets in the way. If you make it to purple, brown and black you will look back at this stuff and realize how silly it all is. Worse is if you incur a serious injury that sidelines you for a long time or permanently. Training consistently and competing (if you enjoy it are all that matters).
There's no yelling! I'm just presenting some logic. The logic is either good or bad. If i subsequently quit, it makes no difference to whether the logic was good or bad. If it was good logic then i can forever be remembered as the white belt who destroyed the BJJ analogy to chess on the world stage that is beltchecker. If it's not good logic then just tell me why.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
The logic is neither good nor bad.. Disputing an analogy with opinion does not dispel anything.. people can compare BJJ to folding laundry with the person still in it.. Sorry these things are not literal interpretations. There are logical points on both sides of most of these analogies
JABlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
As Musashi Miyamoto said - "If you know the Way broadly, you will see it in all things"
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
The logic is neither good nor bad.. Disputing an analogy with opinion does not dispel anything.. people can compare BJJ to folding laundry with the person still in it.. Sorry these things are not literal interpretations. There are logical points on both sides of most of these analogies
That's another one that makes zero sense to me. Other than it seems to be some kind of observation that BJJ sometimes involves a Gi... which is a big item of clothing... honestly i can't follow what these people are thinking
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Let's say they are metaphors instead of analogies now poetic license makes almost any comparison true..
They don't have to make sense to everyone they obviously do to lots of people otherwise they wouldn't be repeated.. As a great mind earlier on the post said I prefer to focus on training not worrying about analogies or metaphors
They don't have to make sense to everyone they obviously do to lots of people otherwise they wouldn't be repeated.. As a great mind earlier on the post said I prefer to focus on training not worrying about analogies or metaphors
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Let's say they are metaphors instead of analogies now poetic license makes almost any comparison true.. They don't have to make sense to everyone they obviously do to lots of people otherwise they wouldn't be repeated.. As a great mind earlier on the post said I prefer to focus on training not worrying about analogies or metaphors
This..
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
It's more like Starcraft. I'mma zergrush u ASAP :)
I love the chess quote though:
"Play the opening like a book, the middle game like a magician, and the endgame like a machine.” -Rudolf Spielmann
I love the chess quote though:
"Play the opening like a book, the middle game like a magician, and the endgame like a machine.” -Rudolf Spielmann
SCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
It's more like Starcraft. I'mma zergrush u ASAP :) I love the chess quote though: 'Play the opening like a book, the middle game like a magician, and the endgame like a machine.” -Rudolf Spielmann
Ohhh, man, StarCraft used to be my jam.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
It's more like Starcraft. I'mma zergrush u ASAP :) I love the chess quote though: 'Play the opening like a book, the middle game like a magician, and the endgame like a machine.” -Rudolf Spielmann
It's like driving a car, eventually someone will check your oil. Lol
SCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Ohhh, man, StarCraft used to be my jam.
Not sure what StarCraft is like, but if it's similar to Age of Empires II then that is like BJJ :-)
