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Improving while rolling with someone worse
5 year(s) ago • 2453 views • 39 replies
JBlue beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Hello!
How do I get better while rolling with people I'm better than and much better than? As well as much smaller than me?
When I feel I'm much better I try to to slowly isolate and control the position 100 percent before going for any submissions. Sometimes they make mistakes should I just submit or pass right away? Or give them a chance to work? Maybe start attacking but give them more of a chance to defend? Does that help me as well?
Some of my partners are much smaller than me I'm about 85 to 87 kgs and they might be 50 kgs so typically I'll play guard and focus on trying to move my hips lots. Or I'll just focus on not using my weight but using different wedges to block their movement?
How do I get better while rolling with people I'm better than and much better than? As well as much smaller than me?
When I feel I'm much better I try to to slowly isolate and control the position 100 percent before going for any submissions. Sometimes they make mistakes should I just submit or pass right away? Or give them a chance to work? Maybe start attacking but give them more of a chance to defend? Does that help me as well?
Some of my partners are much smaller than me I'm about 85 to 87 kgs and they might be 50 kgs so typically I'll play guard and focus on trying to move my hips lots. Or I'll just focus on not using my weight but using different wedges to block their movement?
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Make it harder for you and easier for them.
Start in bad positions and work your way out.
One or two hands in belt
Roll with a tennis ball in each hand (no grips)
Allow subs to be almost locked in and work your way out.
Isolated sparring, giving the other person one clearly defined, stupid simple task (get past the legs by any means necessary)
Start in bad positions and work your way out.
One or two hands in belt
Roll with a tennis ball in each hand (no grips)
Allow subs to be almost locked in and work your way out.
Isolated sparring, giving the other person one clearly defined, stupid simple task (get past the legs by any means necessary)
RRBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I would say that you work your areas and find your openings. From that point establish your submission/ position however let the partner work out of it and guide them. It become a mutual roll at this point that both of you gain from it.
RLPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I usually use those rolls to work on what my coach feedbacks since I can take my time and really work on a technic, only going for the submission if I feel like I did it 100% right with no rushing.
JJBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Use the Rickson Gracie approach,
Or let them show you what they are best at by letting them work to what they are trying to achieve. Defend it, then try to do exactly what they were doing to you to them. If you can defeat someone's A game and then do their own A game back at them to everyone you roll with...that will help you become well rounded and get more out of your easier rolls while you can still play your A game against your more challenging rolls and eventually adapt and add in all you learned and used against the easier rolls against your more challenging rolls.
If someone want's to try to ankle lock me, fine I will now try to ankle lock them, if they want to Armbar me fine...imma try to armbar them...want to collar choke me? Fine imma collar choke you. Want to just sit and do nothing? Fine I will just sit and do nothing in North/South Position. That will keep things fresh and also challenge you in areas that may not be your A game and figure out how to link everything together and connect all the dots.
If they are much smaller I just let them attack my back or go straight to side control or mount and reverse them with basic elbow control movements. If you want to get more out of it against a small person let them set up fully locked on submissions, chokes etc and then get out of it as it will be to easy to escape or reverse anything except fully locked or nearly fully locked submissions.
Or let them show you what they are best at by letting them work to what they are trying to achieve. Defend it, then try to do exactly what they were doing to you to them. If you can defeat someone's A game and then do their own A game back at them to everyone you roll with...that will help you become well rounded and get more out of your easier rolls while you can still play your A game against your more challenging rolls and eventually adapt and add in all you learned and used against the easier rolls against your more challenging rolls.
If someone want's to try to ankle lock me, fine I will now try to ankle lock them, if they want to Armbar me fine...imma try to armbar them...want to collar choke me? Fine imma collar choke you. Want to just sit and do nothing? Fine I will just sit and do nothing in North/South Position. That will keep things fresh and also challenge you in areas that may not be your A game and figure out how to link everything together and connect all the dots.
If they are much smaller I just let them attack my back or go straight to side control or mount and reverse them with basic elbow control movements. If you want to get more out of it against a small person let them set up fully locked on submissions, chokes etc and then get out of it as it will be to easy to escape or reverse anything except fully locked or nearly fully locked submissions.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
JJoshOP
Blue beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Use the Rickson Gracie approach, Or let them show you what they are best at by letting them work to what they are trying to achieve. Defend it, then try to do exactly what they were doing to you to them. If you can defeat someone's A game and then do their own A game back at them to everyone you roll with...that will help you become well rounded and get more out of your easier rolls while you can still play your A game against your more challenging rolls and eventually adapt and add in all you learned and used against the easier rolls against your more challenging rolls. If someone want's to try to ankle lock me, fine I will now try to ankle lock them, if they want to Armbar me fine...imma try to armbar them...want to collar choke me? Fine imma collar choke you. Want to just sit and do nothing? Fine I will just sit and do nothing in North/South Position. That will keep things fresh and also challenge you in areas that may not be your A game and figure out how to link everything together and connect all the dots.
I did that with someone today so I mmm how do I explain it? So I rolled with someone and he was able to keep me in half guard for a bit so I just explored to see what he could do. Then I passed etc... We reset. Second time around I just passed without letting him go to half guard? You mean like that? Or let him get it again and work my way out?
JJoshOP
Blue beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Make it harder for you and easier for them. Start in bad positions and work your way out. One or two hands in belt Roll with a tennis ball in each hand (no grips) Allow subs to be almost locked in and work your way out. Isolated sparring, giving the other person one clearly defined, stupid simple task (get past the legs by any means necessary)
So for example if I'm playing top, let them get a strong guard position then pass?
From bottom let them get an advantageous position and work my way out?
From bottom let them get an advantageous position and work my way out?
JJBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I did that with someone today so I mmm how do I explain it? So I rolled with someone and he was able to keep me in half guard for a bit so I just explored to see what he could do. Then I passed etc... We reset. Second time around I just passed without letting him go to half guard? You mean like that? Or let him get it again and work my way out?
I prob spent an entire month with one training partner just basically sitting in his 1/2 guard and passing the guard and working on my posture/balance post awareness not to get swept...getting comfortable in the uncomfortable, and now I feel very comfortable in that situation against almost anyone. The actual passing is easy...it's the learning the posture/balance post awareness how to not get swept or hip bumped and feeling comfortable with someone attacking the kimura/armbar or triangle from the bottom and just being able to be relaxed and knowing how to go forward.
Can't get the underhook? No big deal i can just overhook and go for a darce or bolt cutter or just get my other arm over and pressure them back down...just simply thinking of what can go wrong from from every position instead of worrying about what can go right....as simply learning what to avoid makes it easier to do what is right by trial and error
Can't get the underhook? No big deal i can just overhook and go for a darce or bolt cutter or just get my other arm over and pressure them back down...just simply thinking of what can go wrong from from every position instead of worrying about what can go right....as simply learning what to avoid makes it easier to do what is right by trial and error
Edited 5 year(s) ago
JJBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
So for example if I'm playing top, let them get a strong guard position then pass? From bottom let them get an advantageous position and work my way out?
depends on what your good at already...if you find yourself ever getting sweeped then I would just hang out in guards until your not getting swept.
Find yourself getting caught in armbars and triangles? then id hang out in close guard until i felt comfortable avoiding and escaping them, having control of your own elbows and their biceps,
Jiu Jitsu is really nothing but the concept of creating and removing space.
Find yourself getting caught in armbars and triangles? then id hang out in close guard until i felt comfortable avoiding and escaping them, having control of your own elbows and their biceps,
Jiu Jitsu is really nothing but the concept of creating and removing space.
JJBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
It's less about techniques and more about concepts.
What does every submission have in common? Space is removed then pressure is added with leverage or more space removal.
What does every escape, reversal have in common? Creation of space and then creating distance or removing space and then using leverage.
What does every retention of dominant position consist of? Removing the space and ability for them to invade and interrupt your space or maintaining control of your own post/posture and balance.
Jiu Jitsu is really simple when you think of. I feel like you can really sum it up in that it is just a game of distance management, post awareness while using posture and balance and creating and removing space when needed to invade and conquer their space and then remove it from them until they submit to your space acquisitions. lol
And when you think of jiu-jitsu this way it will keep you mindful of your elbows, knees, your head placement, posture, balance, posts, all the things that you need to avoid losing space. If no one is able to invade your spaces it will be hard for them to achieve much.
What does every submission have in common? Space is removed then pressure is added with leverage or more space removal.
What does every escape, reversal have in common? Creation of space and then creating distance or removing space and then using leverage.
What does every retention of dominant position consist of? Removing the space and ability for them to invade and interrupt your space or maintaining control of your own post/posture and balance.
Jiu Jitsu is really simple when you think of. I feel like you can really sum it up in that it is just a game of distance management, post awareness while using posture and balance and creating and removing space when needed to invade and conquer their space and then remove it from them until they submit to your space acquisitions. lol
And when you think of jiu-jitsu this way it will keep you mindful of your elbows, knees, your head placement, posture, balance, posts, all the things that you need to avoid losing space. If no one is able to invade your spaces it will be hard for them to achieve much.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
JJBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
And then once you finally understand how space works you can get into the fun strategy of psychological warfare and manipulating your opponent to conquer all their space.
To sum it up...I would just simply think to myself...how can this person invade my space, interrupt my posture/balance and take away my posts. Remove those possibilities from them. Then you have to think of how is this person going to deceive me and manipulate me in order to conquer my space and to read and react to their tricks. Then getting good at hanging out in any position that you have invaded and being able to transition from all the territories that you have conquered and just hang out in them and fill at home in those lands. Those are your lands now. Squash any rebellions until they are pacified and submit to being a vassal under your command. lol
To sum it up...I would just simply think to myself...how can this person invade my space, interrupt my posture/balance and take away my posts. Remove those possibilities from them. Then you have to think of how is this person going to deceive me and manipulate me in order to conquer my space and to read and react to their tricks. Then getting good at hanging out in any position that you have invaded and being able to transition from all the territories that you have conquered and just hang out in them and fill at home in those lands. Those are your lands now. Squash any rebellions until they are pacified and submit to being a vassal under your command. lol
Edited 5 year(s) ago
FFBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Make it harder for you and easier for them. Start in bad positions and work your way out. One or two hands in belt Roll with a tennis ball in each hand (no grips) Allow subs to be almost locked in and work your way out. Isolated sparring, giving the other person one clearly defined, stupid simple task (get past the legs by any means necessary)
Just this.
JJoshOP
Blue beltVerified
FFBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Yes.
YTPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Prefacing this with the observation that not many partners are worse than me.
When I'm rolling with people less skilled than me, I focus on techniques I wish to improve. I would never let a higher belt purposely get top side control on me (doesn't mean they won't get it :)), but with a new white belt I let them work so I can practice an escape or submission. Usually I pull closed guard and work from there, but with less skilled people I practice my takedowns or try to go to X-guard / DLR.
When I'm rolling with people less skilled than me, I focus on techniques I wish to improve. I would never let a higher belt purposely get top side control on me (doesn't mean they won't get it :)), but with a new white belt I let them work so I can practice an escape or submission. Usually I pull closed guard and work from there, but with less skilled people I practice my takedowns or try to go to X-guard / DLR.
ABlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Use techniques that is not your A-game and try to perfect them and gain more experience using them. Get more comfortable using this techniques and then try them with better and stronger training partners and move up the levels.
JJoshOP
Blue beltVerified
TPBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Get more comfortable using this techniques and then try them with better and stronger training partners and move up the levels.
Reminds me of a convo I had in the locker room a while ago:
Training partner: The technique we drilled yesterday, you know, it felt good without resistance but it doesn't work in sparring.
Me: Who did you try it on?
Training partner: *mentions two of our toughest brown belt competitors*
Me: Eh... yes it must be garbage then. :D
Training partner: The technique we drilled yesterday, you know, it felt good without resistance but it doesn't work in sparring.
Me: Who did you try it on?
Training partner: *mentions two of our toughest brown belt competitors*
Me: Eh... yes it must be garbage then. :D
Edited 5 year(s) ago
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Reminds me of a convo I had in the locker room a while ago: Training partner: The technique we drilled yesterday, you know, it felt good without resistance but it doesn't work in sparring. Me: Who did you try it on? Training partner: *mentions two of our toughest brown belt competitors' Me: Eh... yes it must be garbage then. :D
Scary how long it takes for some people to realise that that's what beginners are for.
ABlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Reminds me of a convo I had in the locker room a while ago: Training partner: The technique we drilled yesterday, you know, it felt good without resistance but it doesn't work in sparring. Me: Who did you try it on? Training partner: *mentions two of our toughest brown belt competitors' Me: Eh... yes it must be garbage then. :D
Story of my coaching life :D
One way to correct that issue was for me to train this techniques on good level so people could see that they work and maybe get more motivated to try new game plans and variations. Worked fine with new guys white, blue and some purple, much harder to convince higher rank and levels.
One way to correct that issue was for me to train this techniques on good level so people could see that they work and maybe get more motivated to try new game plans and variations. Worked fine with new guys white, blue and some purple, much harder to convince higher rank and levels.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Best to start in a bad position and let them work while you try to defend. If you get out don't sub them and start again. Play catch and release always leading you back into problematic areas so you can start to work out of it again. I find this works best for me. Lets them in the game and no one feels dejected and useless.
It's training so it should be beneficial to both parties. Just my 2 cents
It's training so it should be beneficial to both parties. Just my 2 cents
MGPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I don’t know what it’s like to roll with someone much worse than me so I am of no help here.
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Another idea:
Limit yourself to only ONE submission. Especially one that needs work. Ignore all other opportunities, but find the many roads that lead to Rome.
And:
Don't use submissions AT ALL. Make the other person quit by pressure alone. The position itself should be the submission. Break the will. Crush the spirit. Hail Ares.
Limit yourself to only ONE submission. Especially one that needs work. Ignore all other opportunities, but find the many roads that lead to Rome.
And:
Don't use submissions AT ALL. Make the other person quit by pressure alone. The position itself should be the submission. Break the will. Crush the spirit. Hail Ares.
MBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
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SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Make it harder for you and easier for them. Start in bad positions and work your way out. One or two hands in belt Roll with a tennis ball in each hand (no grips) Allow subs to be almost locked in and work your way out. Isolated sparring, giving the other person one clearly defined, stupid simple task (get past the legs by any means necessary)
As usual, Daniel nailed it while also being concise. For those not aware, he's got an excellent example too, as his wife has become quite competent in a very short space of time, due to Daniel's lockdown teaching. :D
Roger Gracie is another good model for this: during his period of dominance in competition, he was mostly just training with his students. The vast majority of whom were smaller than him, and all of them weren't as skilled (given that Roger is arguably the most skilled of all time, though as I'm in his lineage I'm kinda biased on that ;) ).
Roger Gracie is another good model for this: during his period of dominance in competition, he was mostly just training with his students. The vast majority of whom were smaller than him, and all of them weren't as skilled (given that Roger is arguably the most skilled of all time, though as I'm in his lineage I'm kinda biased on that ;) ).
GKPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I find I can try techniques that are new to me, and I can be more creative when I roll with people newer to Jiu-Jitsu. I can take more risks and explore without necessarily paying for it immediately. Lol
Edited 5 year(s) ago
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
There was an excellent thread on Bullshido back in the day on this topic, which holds up well:
https://web.archive.org/w[...]ost1253088
https://web.archive.org/w[...]ost1253088
HSBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I do this alot. I am 6'4" and 300lbs. I play top game crusher as my preferred style. Rolling partners my size are to always plentiful. Thankfully my gym has a few, but I roll with alot of white belts or smaller people that I can beat. I use those rolls to work on things I am bad at, and won't take a dominant top position unless i have almost no choice. I have been working alot of turtle, bottom full guard, and bottom half guard lately.
If they are very new I will let them have the bad positions and teach them the moves to try and beat me with.
My turtle and half guard positions have gotten much better. I still suck at bottom full guard in terms of attacking.
If they are very new I will let them have the bad positions and teach them the moves to try and beat me with.
My turtle and half guard positions have gotten much better. I still suck at bottom full guard in terms of attacking.
HSBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
P.S. I have been working my anaconda and darce game alot lately too with rolling partners. It is improving well also from practicing on the lower belts. I am now landing it on people more evenly matched and I landed it on a brown belt a couple weeks ago.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Roger Gracie won one or two of his World absolute titles training with his students. Most of them were only white or blue belts in that time.
Indeed, and it was more than just one or two: it was all of them (RGA was founded in 2004, Roger won his absolute golds in 2007, 2009 and 2010). I started at the Roger Gracie Academy HQ back in late 2006, almost all of Roger's training was with his students, particularly in the early days of the London school. He did tend to train at Renzo's during the run-up to worlds, as well as bring in people like Braulio back in the UK (as Braulio wasn't too far off, about 3hrs away in Birmingham), but day-to-day, Roger was rolling with his students at what was then still a fairly new school.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
