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Discussions about the sport "meta" game
6 year(s) ago • 537 views • 13 replies
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
A lot of oldschool guys here :) I too remember times when the only DLR guard was what now is known as "long DLR" or DLR-X ... and that was made famous by well... De la Riva. The modern DLR and reverse DLR games just didn't exist. Berimbolo didn't exist etc.
I remember Margarida playing collar and sleeve, going for anklepicks and stuff... it fell out for a while, Mendes brothers played that again then it kinda fell out again and now it's back again.
Obviously the lapel stuff is big in gi at the moment that just didn't exist 10 years ago and now bluebelts play it in Europeans.
Let's discuss interesting developments, how everything actually existed (or didn't) in Kosen judo, the most modern trends that are here to stay etc.
I remember Margarida playing collar and sleeve, going for anklepicks and stuff... it fell out for a while, Mendes brothers played that again then it kinda fell out again and now it's back again.
Obviously the lapel stuff is big in gi at the moment that just didn't exist 10 years ago and now bluebelts play it in Europeans.
Let's discuss interesting developments, how everything actually existed (or didn't) in Kosen judo, the most modern trends that are here to stay etc.
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SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
My general assumption is that because humans have probably been grappling since before we came down from the trees, everything you can possibly do with two arms and two legs has probably been done. So I would have thought it's all a matter of rediscovery rather than inventing new stuff at this point. Maybe not the lapel stuff so much, that feels like it might be fairly unique to BJJ? Although I'm not sure of the rules in judo, sambo etc about using lapels.
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
"De La Riva guard" was standard Kosen Judo fare, and remained a common newaza bottom position in Judo, for Judo schools that trained newaza heavily.
All due props to Professor De La Riva for popularizing in BJJ tournaments in his day.
But just as Draculino popularized spider guard in BJJ tournaments,
And Gordo popularized half guard in BJJ tournaments,
and Marcelo Garcia popularized arm drags in BJJ tournaments,
All of these techniques were well practiced and well known outside of BJJ tournaments,
in their respective circles, before BJJ players brought them to BJJ tournaments.
All due props to Professor De La Riva for popularizing in BJJ tournaments in his day.
But just as Draculino popularized spider guard in BJJ tournaments,
And Gordo popularized half guard in BJJ tournaments,
and Marcelo Garcia popularized arm drags in BJJ tournaments,
All of these techniques were well practiced and well known outside of BJJ tournaments,
in their respective circles, before BJJ players brought them to BJJ tournaments.
ALBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I think so much of it just comes down to the rules of the sport/art, and cycles of time and tactical evolution within the various grappling arts.
The old saying "there's nothing new under the sun" comes to mind. Somewhere, sometime, ANY possible move that one human being can do to another human being has already been "invented" and done before. Possibly lost over time, re-discovered, lost again, and rediscovered again, more times over the millenia of human existence than any of us can begin to fathom.
Where the rules are appropriate, athletes WILL innovate and find new ways and tactics and "techniques" to achieve a given task. Change the rules (Judo vs Sambo vs BJJ, or Wrestling vs no-gi BJJ, or any pure grappling art vs MMA, for examples) and you'll see different patterns evolve, but it's always gong to by cyclical and with lots of overlap anywhere similar rules allow.
Then, as techniques are used, counters are explored. The technique falls out of favor as its effectiveness wanes with mass awareness. Eventually it all but disappears, until someone "discovers" it again in their search for a new tactical edge... and since it isn't popular anymore, the proper counters aren't well known anymore either, springboarding it back into strategical favor again.
I have no doubt that practically everything in the modern BJJ was likely done before in Kosen Judo, and somewhere in China long before that, and all the way back in Egypt long before that.....
The old saying "there's nothing new under the sun" comes to mind. Somewhere, sometime, ANY possible move that one human being can do to another human being has already been "invented" and done before. Possibly lost over time, re-discovered, lost again, and rediscovered again, more times over the millenia of human existence than any of us can begin to fathom.
Where the rules are appropriate, athletes WILL innovate and find new ways and tactics and "techniques" to achieve a given task. Change the rules (Judo vs Sambo vs BJJ, or Wrestling vs no-gi BJJ, or any pure grappling art vs MMA, for examples) and you'll see different patterns evolve, but it's always gong to by cyclical and with lots of overlap anywhere similar rules allow.
Then, as techniques are used, counters are explored. The technique falls out of favor as its effectiveness wanes with mass awareness. Eventually it all but disappears, until someone "discovers" it again in their search for a new tactical edge... and since it isn't popular anymore, the proper counters aren't well known anymore either, springboarding it back into strategical favor again.
I have no doubt that practically everything in the modern BJJ was likely done before in Kosen Judo, and somewhere in China long before that, and all the way back in Egypt long before that.....
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Yeah the descriptions of Greek Wrestling (which had submissions) were translated by scholars who had no idea about combat sports (catch would've been the best reference point) and they make much more sense to someone who has grappled :)
But what about "now"? What's the "next big thing"? I would say we already saw passing on the knees make a big comeback in last 2-3 years (obv Galvao and Buchecha have been in mainstream and done it longer and guys like Faria and others) but REALLY mainstream) in response to leglocks in nogi and lapel game in gi.
But what about "now"? What's the "next big thing"? I would say we already saw passing on the knees make a big comeback in last 2-3 years (obv Galvao and Buchecha have been in mainstream and done it longer and guys like Faria and others) but REALLY mainstream) in response to leglocks in nogi and lapel game in gi.
ANBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
theres the ancient japanese art of bondage... which is kind of lapel stuff... lol
i wonder though if my inverted backmount thing was ever a thing anywhere... i gotta hook up with bjj fanatics somehow
i wonder though if my inverted backmount thing was ever a thing anywhere... i gotta hook up with bjj fanatics somehow
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
i wonder though if my inverted backmount thing was ever a thing anywhere... i gotta hook up with bjj fanatics somehow
If it is what I am thinking,
It is a common position used in shoot fighting.
Sakuraba uses if for a wrestling guillotine type finish.
Is it two hooks in but you are facing the other way?
It is a common position used in shoot fighting.
Sakuraba uses if for a wrestling guillotine type finish.
Is it two hooks in but you are facing the other way?
ANBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
If it is what I am thinking, It is a common position used in shoot fighting. Sakuraba uses if for a wrestling guillotine type finish. Is it two hooks in but you are facing the other way?
yeah man i know saku uses it for a nice neck crank finish,
theres so much more to it though
i kinda build like a whole system around it, even had some succes at competitions with it lately
but its still in its beginning phase i have to get it kinda more together, there are so many attacks, neck and spine cranks and transitiions from there
so its a common position in shooto. interesting...
theres so much more to it though
i kinda build like a whole system around it, even had some succes at competitions with it lately
but its still in its beginning phase i have to get it kinda more together, there are so many attacks, neck and spine cranks and transitiions from there
so its a common position in shooto. interesting...
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
yeah man i know saku uses it for a nice neck crank finish, theres so much more to it though i kinda build like a whole system around it, even had some succes at competitions with it lately but its still in its beginning phase i have to get it kinda more together, there are so many attacks, neck and spine cranks and transitiions from there so its a common position in shooto. interesting...
Cool.
The Japanese shooto schools do a lot of things that are considered unorthodox in BJJ.
Until some BJJ players pull them off in high level BJJ competition.
And then people ooh and ah.
Same with wrestling techniques, old school Judo, Sambo techniques, etc, etc.
Again, I think it is very cool that you are building a game around it.
The Japanese shooto schools do a lot of things that are considered unorthodox in BJJ.
Until some BJJ players pull them off in high level BJJ competition.
And then people ooh and ah.
Same with wrestling techniques, old school Judo, Sambo techniques, etc, etc.
Again, I think it is very cool that you are building a game around it.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
As a matter of fact, you should get with Ian Lemus on this site.
He was playing with that position quite a bit 4 or 5 years ago.
You guys could information dump to each other about it.
He was playing with that position quite a bit 4 or 5 years ago.
You guys could information dump to each other about it.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
My general assumption is that because humans have probably been grappling since before we came down from the trees, everything you can possibly do with two arms and two legs has probably been done
This is also my opinion. Nothing is new. Alot of stuff is cycled in and out based on the defenses and effectiveness. Just like grappling seemed out of fashion until reintroduced in the first UFC. Mainstream was Punching and kicking until the defense was introduced (grappling) and it was effective against the stand up fighters. And so it goes forever and ever.
ANBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
As a matter of fact, you should get with Ian Lemus on this site. He was playing with that position quite a bit 4 or 5 years ago. You guys could information dump to each other about it.
thx for the info, i know that for example japanese catch has lots of my favourite unorthodox techniques,
if anywhere then i expected japan to be the country where they use this position
but i never saw anyone except saku use it...
if anywhere then i expected japan to be the country where they use this position
but i never saw anyone except saku use it...
Edited 6 year(s) ago
ADPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Obviously the lapel stuff is big in gi at the moment that just didn't exist 10 years ago and now bluebelts play it in Europeans.
Actually I remember Ze Radiola teaching me a technique that was quite similar to the lapel guard 9 years ago.
Also Olivier Michailesco, a French black belt, and multiple time European champion at adult and masters, is a wizard with the lapel. He uses the lapel a lot as what he calls "shackles" and has done so for ages. I believe Aaron taught a class at a Zen camp on it. I'm convinced this is going to be the next big thing (and is going to make me hate the gi even more).
Also Olivier Michailesco, a French black belt, and multiple time European champion at adult and masters, is a wizard with the lapel. He uses the lapel a lot as what he calls "shackles" and has done so for ages. I believe Aaron taught a class at a Zen camp on it. I'm convinced this is going to be the next big thing (and is going to make me hate the gi even more).
ANBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Actually I remember Ze Radiola teaching me a technique that was quite similar to the lapel guard 9 years ago. Also Olivier Michailesco, a French black belt, and multiple time European champion at adult and masters, is a wizard with the lapel. He uses the lapel a lot as what he calls 'shackles' and has done so for ages. I believe Aaron taught a class at a Zen camp on it. I'm convinced this is going to be the next big thing (and is going to make me hate the gi even more).
i taught a class at last years zen camp called hardcore lapel bondage, in the very end i mentioned the french handcuffs briefly as they are a great addition to any lapel game !
its awesome how ths whole lapel thingy is developing lately, been playing around with it for the last 5 years or so...
its awesome how ths whole lapel thingy is developing lately, been playing around with it for the last 5 years or so...
