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Validating non-BJJ belts? (mma, sambo, hayastan, luta livre)
5 year(s) ago • 6382 views • 161 replies
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
People of Beltchecker,
We've debated this issue when it comes to Luta Livre.
I believe the consensus was: even though there is a huge overlap in skill, especially when it comes to Luta & BJJ in Europe. Still, no, let's not use this site as a validation tool for other grappling styles (LL, sambo, judo, etc)
I could be wrong tho.
I saw a gentleman (Ryan Mech) create a profile on here as a hayastan brown belt.
I have no doubt about his skill as a grappler, but I wonder if this is the way this site should be used.
What are your thoughts?
We've debated this issue when it comes to Luta Livre.
I believe the consensus was: even though there is a huge overlap in skill, especially when it comes to Luta & BJJ in Europe. Still, no, let's not use this site as a validation tool for other grappling styles (LL, sambo, judo, etc)
I could be wrong tho.
I saw a gentleman (Ryan Mech) create a profile on here as a hayastan brown belt.
I have no doubt about his skill as a grappler, but I wonder if this is the way this site should be used.
What are your thoughts?
JWBlue beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Well when it comes to Hayastan you are talking about a system created by Gokor Chivichyan and Judo Gene LeBell. Gokor is certified black belt coach with the IBJJF and is the head coach of his own IBJJF academy. I think Hayastan should be treated like 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu in a way. That’s just my thoughts.
BBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Judo has it's own validating systems through the national governing bodies and the International Judo Federation. I have a judo nidan, and the USA Judo credentials to back it up. Sambo is just now rolling out a belt system-though we all doubt it will be widely used or last- but all sambo cares about your competition resume, very similar to wrestling. The schisms regarding rank structure, promotions, and organizational affiliations don't exist in those styles the same way they do in bjj.
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
People of Beltchecker, We've debated this issue when it comes to Luta Livre. I believe the consensus was: even though there is a huge overlap in skill, especially when it comes to Luta & BJJ in Europe. Still, no, let's not use this site as a validation tool for other grappling styles (LL, sambo, judo, etc) I could be wrong tho. I saw a gentleman (Ryan Mech) create a profile on here as a hayastan brown belt. I have no doubt about his skill as a grappler, but I wonder if this is the way this site should be used. What are your thoughts?
Merry Christmas!
Puhhh...Hard to say!
I don’t want to be the party pooper, but what Daniel wrote makes sense I think.
It is not about questioning skills....there are plenty of really highly skilled Luta Livre blackbelts for example, who are bjj purple or brown belts, so their bjj ranks are validated here and not their luta Livre ranks (or Judo or whatever).
I know who Gokor Chivichyan is and on his page he is mentioned as a 4 th degree bjj blackbelt with the ibjjf, too, so maybe there is lots of BJJ involved in the „Hayastan System“, not only Judo, Sambo, whatever...I am not familiar with the system, despite of knowing it is a grappling based system.
Really interested what other members of beltchecker think about that?
Puhhh...Hard to say!
I don’t want to be the party pooper, but what Daniel wrote makes sense I think.
It is not about questioning skills....there are plenty of really highly skilled Luta Livre blackbelts for example, who are bjj purple or brown belts, so their bjj ranks are validated here and not their luta Livre ranks (or Judo or whatever).
I know who Gokor Chivichyan is and on his page he is mentioned as a 4 th degree bjj blackbelt with the ibjjf, too, so maybe there is lots of BJJ involved in the „Hayastan System“, not only Judo, Sambo, whatever...I am not familiar with the system, despite of knowing it is a grappling based system.
Really interested what other members of beltchecker think about that?
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
If Gokor is recognized as a BJJ BB then register yourself as a BJJ whatever belt under Gokor not as a Hayastan system belt...
It's called BJJ Beltchecker for now.
It's called BJJ Beltchecker for now.
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I actually don't think we have a place validating non BJJ belts, or validating based on non BJJ belts. Easiest example I think is Judo and BJJ. I actively train both and there's plenty of overlap, but, despite what you hear a lot of people say, if you think they're the same thing, you are out of your god damned mind!
The Judo black belts can toss me around like a rag doll with little effort, and I think that's pretty typical of many who do BJJ. Conversely, when we're doing newaza, I have to honestly hold back, even against those teaching the class. There was even one time when they thought I was some sort of arm bar specialist. The trainer gave me a shocked look when I told him I'm only doing that because it's one of the few submissions I'm sure is allowed in Judo and I don't know if I can do my favorite techniques.
BJJ has become it's own unique thing, I think we can just leave it at that. Other styles can do their thing, we do ours.
The Judo black belts can toss me around like a rag doll with little effort, and I think that's pretty typical of many who do BJJ. Conversely, when we're doing newaza, I have to honestly hold back, even against those teaching the class. There was even one time when they thought I was some sort of arm bar specialist. The trainer gave me a shocked look when I told him I'm only doing that because it's one of the few submissions I'm sure is allowed in Judo and I don't know if I can do my favorite techniques.
BJJ has become it's own unique thing, I think we can just leave it at that. Other styles can do their thing, we do ours.
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
If Gokor is recognized as a BJJ BB then register yourself as a BJJ whatever belt under Gokor not as a Hayastan system belt... It's called BJJ Beltchecker for now.
Simple as that!
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
If Gokor is recognized as a BJJ BB then register yourself as a BJJ whatever belt under Gokor not as a Hayastan system belt... It's called BJJ Beltchecker for now.
This 100%
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
It does not say bjj belt checker like I’ve seen a few of you say.
Well, it does, in fact :)
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
It's BJJ Beltchecker. If a system isn't representing itself as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, then it's not really in the line of sight. It's in no way a besmirchment of Mr. LeBell or Mr. Chivichyan. When you look up legend in the dictionary, those two guys are in the illustration, no doubt (I don't think dictionaries have illustrations, but you get my point). Their brand or style of grappling is not represented as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, so it is what it is. I think the community respects the lineage and ability of anyone ranked under those two guys, so it's probably up to the super secret 5 star committee to decide if it fits with the scope of the website. Personally, I'm non-committal. Mr. LeBell has been a lifelong hero of mine, so I'm horribly biased. It is a slippery slope if you're a purist though.
WPinkVerifiedPlanet Earth
5 year(s) ago
so it's probably up to the super secret 5 star committee to decide if it fits with the scope of the website
No, it's 100% up to the community to make a decision on this through voting. Which they already seem to have done :)
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Yeah in the small print I see. I’m not really interested in arguing with the cult like mentality. Your own community voted for my verification... I’m sure you guys will figure it out. I hope nobody loses too much sleep over it.
If a Shotokan Karate organization does not want to recognize my rank in Isshin Ryu, is that a cult like mentality? They are branches from the same tree, but they are not the same thing.
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
They do recognize it as Ishyn ryu bb. Just like my profile says Hayastan not bjj. Stop beating a dead horse. Nobody is trying to mis represent. I have been verified only as a legit Hayastan brown belt only. No need to waste more energy trying to make this something more than it is.
First, I never said you were misrepresenting anything. The question asked was do we verify non BJJ belts. I gave my opinion. Second, replying to a current forum post with an opinion is not beating a dead horse.
LZBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Although I´m also ranked in Luta Livre and Judo I don´t need the urgency to verify these ranks in this forum... As it´s already been told it´s a bjj verification forum and should be used for BJJ and not the other systems imo.
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
This is why I don’t support the verification. Legit grappling system, but not “BJJ”. Different system. No promotion had a BJJ belt, nor the certificates stated such. I feel like my vote is to verify someone’s rank in BJJ, as given by their BJJ instructor; not to judge what is considered an equivalency. For whatever it is worth, I will be disputing these types of verifications.
As a matter of principle, i joined you in disputing mr. Mech's profile.
If we don't validate Luta Livre belts, we shouldn't verfiy Hayastan either.
I have disputed belts of friends, LL people I have trained with & respect highly. But validating rank of other styles is not the idea.
If he decides to enter his corresponding bjj rank, i will remove the downvote.
If we don't validate Luta Livre belts, we shouldn't verfiy Hayastan either.
I have disputed belts of friends, LL people I have trained with & respect highly. But validating rank of other styles is not the idea.
If he decides to enter his corresponding bjj rank, i will remove the downvote.
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I have trained with enough of Gokor's people to know that Gokor is legitimate.
Also, Gokor is recognized as a black belt in the BJJ competition circuits, and has competed successfully as a BJJ black belt.
In the first place, I feel we are being silly and snobbish to quibble.
In the second place, I feel that the grappling community is much better off with Gokor and his system, and groups like 10th Planet, than without it.
Try not to get your japanese pajamas in a twist, people...
Twisting other people's limbs, whether they are wearing japanese pajamas or not, is of course encouraged, contrary wise.
Also, Gokor is recognized as a black belt in the BJJ competition circuits, and has competed successfully as a BJJ black belt.
In the first place, I feel we are being silly and snobbish to quibble.
In the second place, I feel that the grappling community is much better off with Gokor and his system, and groups like 10th Planet, than without it.
Try not to get your japanese pajamas in a twist, people...
Twisting other people's limbs, whether they are wearing japanese pajamas or not, is of course encouraged, contrary wise.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
TPBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
In the second place, I feel that the grappling community is much better off with Gokor and his system, and groups like 10th Planet, than without it.
10th Planet is an interesting case.
I think the majority here accepts 10p belts as a legit BJJ rank? There has been no dispute votes.
I'm no expert, but I believe at least Eddie Bravo gives out actual physical belts, and follows pretty much the IBJJF system regarding the ranks even down to the black belt degrees, but of course gi training is not involved at all. (Needless to say, elite 10p belts are competent no-gi grapplers.) Is it by default consider cool for a 10p practitioner to wear his 10p belt when he dons a gi even if he has not earn the rank in the gi?
I know in Finland people who train seriously both BJJ in the gi & the 10p system of then get dual belted in both systems, and can have different ranks in each awarded by different coaches (for example a 10p purple but a BJJ brown).
I think the majority here accepts 10p belts as a legit BJJ rank? There has been no dispute votes.
I'm no expert, but I believe at least Eddie Bravo gives out actual physical belts, and follows pretty much the IBJJF system regarding the ranks even down to the black belt degrees, but of course gi training is not involved at all. (Needless to say, elite 10p belts are competent no-gi grapplers.) Is it by default consider cool for a 10p practitioner to wear his 10p belt when he dons a gi even if he has not earn the rank in the gi?
I know in Finland people who train seriously both BJJ in the gi & the 10p system of then get dual belted in both systems, and can have different ranks in each awarded by different coaches (for example a 10p purple but a BJJ brown).
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I have trained with enough of Gokor's people to know that Gokor is legitimate. Also, Gokor is recognized as a black belt in the BJJ competition circuits, and has competed successfully as a BJJ black belt.
If I may, I think everyone is talking past each other right now and confusing the actual issue.
NO ONE is claiming that Mr Chivichyan is not a legitimate Grapplers or that he isn't an accomplished BJJ Black Belt. No one is claiming his students are not effective Grapplers. No one is saying that he is doing anything shady or wrong. The only issue being discussed is, is a group of BJJ guys qualified to verify the rank in his system? I think the answer here is pretty clear, especially given that according to his own website, he doesn't use the official BJJ ranking system, at least not without modification.
As you can see from the attachment, his first three belts (Yellow, Orange, and Green) don't exist BJJ, at least not for adults. How would anyone here who hasn't trained in his system evaluate these? Are these levels of blue belt? Are these special for children? Are these our blue, purple and brown belts? If so, then what do his blue purple and brown belts represent?
Again, none of this has anything to do with legitimacy. I've bought all of Mr Chivichyan's DVD and they are some of my favorite instructionals. There is just no basis to know what these belts mean without training in his specific system, and therefore no basis to validate them. As seen in the previous posts, this site is intended for BJJ rank specifically. A separate site exists for Judo and apparently Lute Livre now as well. If those ranks would not be validated here, especially as the difference between most Nogi BJJ and Lute Livre is very muddy in general, I fail to see why it should be different for Mr Chivichyan.
NO ONE is claiming that Mr Chivichyan is not a legitimate Grapplers or that he isn't an accomplished BJJ Black Belt. No one is claiming his students are not effective Grapplers. No one is saying that he is doing anything shady or wrong. The only issue being discussed is, is a group of BJJ guys qualified to verify the rank in his system? I think the answer here is pretty clear, especially given that according to his own website, he doesn't use the official BJJ ranking system, at least not without modification.
As you can see from the attachment, his first three belts (Yellow, Orange, and Green) don't exist BJJ, at least not for adults. How would anyone here who hasn't trained in his system evaluate these? Are these levels of blue belt? Are these special for children? Are these our blue, purple and brown belts? If so, then what do his blue purple and brown belts represent?
Again, none of this has anything to do with legitimacy. I've bought all of Mr Chivichyan's DVD and they are some of my favorite instructionals. There is just no basis to know what these belts mean without training in his specific system, and therefore no basis to validate them. As seen in the previous posts, this site is intended for BJJ rank specifically. A separate site exists for Judo and apparently Lute Livre now as well. If those ranks would not be validated here, especially as the difference between most Nogi BJJ and Lute Livre is very muddy in general, I fail to see why it should be different for Mr Chivichyan.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
It seems that http://www.judobeltchecker.com And, http://www.lutalivrebeltchecker.com Are now live.
Spelling errors in the URL’s FYI :)
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Regardless, it's kind of a beautiful thing to see how the system is self-regulating through community debate and voting here!
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Regardless, it's kind of a beautiful thing to see how the system is self-regulating through community debate and voting here!
Out of curiosity, how many branches of xyz-checker are in the pipeline? Something like a Grappler-checker for grappling in general might be a cool idea. Maybe including systems ranked in or specializations?
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Out of curiosity, how many branches of xyz-checker are in the pipeline?
I have no idea :) We have now built the functionality and can create a new clone of the site in less than 5 minutes for any style.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
If I may, I think everyone is talking past each other right now and confusing the actual issue. NO ONE is claiming that Mr Chivichyan is not a legitimate Grapplers or that he isn't an accomplished BJJ Black Belt. No one is claiming his students are not effective Grapplers. No one is saying that he is doing anything shady or wrong. The only issue being discussed is, is a group of BJJ guys qualified to verify the rank in his system? I think the answer here is pretty clear, especially given that according to his own website, he doesn't use the official BJJ ranking system, at least not without modification. As you can see from the attachment, his first three belts (Yellow, Orange, and Green) don't exist BJJ, at least not for adults. How would anyone here who hasn't trained in his system evaluate these? Are these levels of blue belt? Are these special for children? Are these our blue, purple and brown belts? If so, then what do his blue purple and brown belts represent? Again, none of this has anything to do with legitimacy. I've bought all of Mr Chivichyan's DVD and they are some of my favorite instructionals. There is just no basis to know what these belts mean without training in his specific system, and therefore no basis to validate them. As seen in the previous posts, this site is intended for BJJ rank specifically. A separate site exists for Judo and apparently Lute Livre now as well. If those ranks would not be validated here, especially as the difference between most Nogi BJJ and Lute Livre is very muddy in general, I fail to see why it should be different for Mr Chivichyan.
A fair number of Gracie Barra schools, do give out green belts for adults.
What is more, there is variance between the IBJJF time in grade for degrees, and belt bars, that are used for black belts in certain lineages, notably the ones used in several of the sons of Helio Gracie's lineages..
And, the current white-blue-purple-brown-black system was the not the original Gracie Jiu-Jitsu belt system, nor even the second iteration of the Gracie / Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu belt rank system.
What is more, there is variance between the IBJJF time in grade for degrees, and belt bars, that are used for black belts in certain lineages, notably the ones used in several of the sons of Helio Gracie's lineages..
And, the current white-blue-purple-brown-black system was the not the original Gracie Jiu-Jitsu belt system, nor even the second iteration of the Gracie / Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu belt rank system.
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Yes, but earning BJJ rank still involves training in a gi and getting a BJJ belt, by a legit BJJ instructor, teaching BJJ. *Did I type BJJ enough times?
There are lots of BJJ schools from very good BJJ lineages, that rarely wear the Gi, or have largely abandoned it to focus on no gi competition.
So, this question does not have universal perspective.
So, this question does not have universal perspective.
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Yes, and if such a school awards a BJJ belt, then I agree with rank verification. If such a school awards a rank/belt in their “system”, then I do not. Please keep in mind that I am only saying this in context of my understanding of what we are verifying rank in here, which is BJJ. I highly respect many other grappling arts that award rank, or “systems”. If BJJ Beltchecker opens up verification for other grappling arts, I am all for it.
It is by all means an interesting discussion, with plenty of nuance to consider on multiple sides and different points of view.
I myself remember the same debates throughout the nineties and the early 2000's about whether BJJ schools that did not train striking while grappling regularly could really be called BJJ or Gracie Jiu-Jitsu schools.
And then later, similar debates about whether schools that did not actively train the Gracie Self Defense moves that resemble Japanese Jiu-Jitsu were really being true to the original ideas and philosophies,
and also gi versus no gi, which is a series of debates that has been occurring off and on since the Luta Livre / Gracie Jiu-Jitsu controversies and rivalries came about.
For that matter, debates on rulesets, ranging from advantage points, slams versus no slams, heel hooks or no heel hooks, and neck cranks, etc.
So, my own position, as someone who has watched such debates in the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and BJJ communities for a few decades, is that there are multiple points of view about these matters, and there are several approaches to building great competitors and practitioners within the Jiu-Jitsu and submission grappling communities.
I myself remember the same debates throughout the nineties and the early 2000's about whether BJJ schools that did not train striking while grappling regularly could really be called BJJ or Gracie Jiu-Jitsu schools.
And then later, similar debates about whether schools that did not actively train the Gracie Self Defense moves that resemble Japanese Jiu-Jitsu were really being true to the original ideas and philosophies,
and also gi versus no gi, which is a series of debates that has been occurring off and on since the Luta Livre / Gracie Jiu-Jitsu controversies and rivalries came about.
For that matter, debates on rulesets, ranging from advantage points, slams versus no slams, heel hooks or no heel hooks, and neck cranks, etc.
So, my own position, as someone who has watched such debates in the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and BJJ communities for a few decades, is that there are multiple points of view about these matters, and there are several approaches to building great competitors and practitioners within the Jiu-Jitsu and submission grappling communities.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Hayastan blue through black are also comparable as far as skill but with more of a judo/sambo focus.
BJJ is comparable to Judo/Sambo but with more of a BJJ focus.
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
BJJ is comparable to Judo/Sambo but with more of a BJJ focus.
But that's kind of the point here. BJJ may be comparable to Judo for example, but they are definitely not the same. If you have a BJJ black belt you will have a very different skil set than a Judo black belt. The entire meta game and attitude are different. You could stand a BJJ black belt across from a Judo black belt in a match and you'd immediately be able to tell which is which without either performing a single technique based on their stance alone. Additionally, no one would expect a Judo school to give someone a Judo black belt because they have a BJJ black belt. We'd all go in and wear a white belt.
And the same goes for Sambo. Ivan Vasylchuk made a really interesting video on this when he was awarded a BJJ purple belt. His teacher even stated he would be able to beat most BJJ black belts, but the actual skill set of a BJJ black belt is missing (comfort in fighting from the back for example).
Again no one is saying they aren't skilled. It's just a different game and different skill set.
And looping this to Me Chivichyan, if I changed over to his school, I'd also go in wearing a white belt.
A degree in chemistry doesn't mean I also have a degree in physics.
And the same goes for Sambo. Ivan Vasylchuk made a really interesting video on this when he was awarded a BJJ purple belt. His teacher even stated he would be able to beat most BJJ black belts, but the actual skill set of a BJJ black belt is missing (comfort in fighting from the back for example).
Again no one is saying they aren't skilled. It's just a different game and different skill set.
And looping this to Me Chivichyan, if I changed over to his school, I'd also go in wearing a white belt.
A degree in chemistry doesn't mean I also have a degree in physics.
