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BJJ does not exist / has vanished
5 year(s) ago • 1491 views • 58 replies
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
https://bjj-world.com/ric[...]jiu-jitsu/ https://www.bjj-spot.com/[...]jiu-jitsu/
I followed the discussion on Facebook from Priit and i liked the „bicycle“ comparison Michael Bateman posted. I just did a screenshot of it:
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Unpopular opinion here, I couldn't care less what any of the Gracies have to say on this matter. Everything I read from them on this topic always smacks less of people genuinely concerned about Jiu-Jitsu and the "purity of the art" and more of butt hurt that they aren't top dogs in the sport anymore.
And the whole yarn about "losing combat effectiveness" is a load of BS. If we had been doing a carbon copy of what the Gracies taught, we'd never have developed the leg locks game to the level we have today, Nogi would be almost non-existent.
And the whole yarn about "losing combat effectiveness" is a load of BS. If we had been doing a carbon copy of what the Gracies taught, we'd never have developed the leg locks game to the level we have today, Nogi would be almost non-existent.
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Unpopular opinion here, I couldn't care less what any of the Gracies have to say on this matter. Everything I read from them on this topic always smacks less of people genuinely concerned about Jiu-Jitsu and the 'purity of the art' and more of butt hurt that they aren't top dogs in the sport anymore. And the whole yarn about 'losing combat effectiveness' is a load of BS. If we had been doing a carbon copy of what the Gracies taught, we'd never have developed the leg locks game to the level we have today, Nogi would be almost non-existent.
Chris, as i Kind of posted above:
Each to his own. I totally understand if somebody only wants to enjoy the sport.
On the other hand I understand if somebody wants to learn self defense or learning to defend against punches, etc...(Which for me is important in my job).
Evolution, specialization..... all good.
It depends on what your goal and purpose is and then you have to find the right group/gym/ academy.
I for example honestly say to people what approach they get at our group (which is more „basic“ /traditional and self defense oriented jiu Jitsu). If somebody wants to learn the newest leglock systems to compete in no Gi tournaments, I would honestly send them to other schools around, who are more specialized in that....
No of both Approaches is better in my opinion... It depends on the context and purpose I think.
Each to his own. I totally understand if somebody only wants to enjoy the sport.
On the other hand I understand if somebody wants to learn self defense or learning to defend against punches, etc...(Which for me is important in my job).
Evolution, specialization..... all good.
It depends on what your goal and purpose is and then you have to find the right group/gym/ academy.
I for example honestly say to people what approach they get at our group (which is more „basic“ /traditional and self defense oriented jiu Jitsu). If somebody wants to learn the newest leglock systems to compete in no Gi tournaments, I would honestly send them to other schools around, who are more specialized in that....
No of both Approaches is better in my opinion... It depends on the context and purpose I think.
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Chris, as i Kind of posted above: Each to his own. I totally understand if somebody only wants to enjoy the sport. On the other hand I understand if somebody wants to learn self defense or learning to defend against punches, etc...(Which for me is important in my job). Evolution, specialization..... all good. It depends on what your goal and purpose is and then you have to find the right group/gym/ academy. I for example honestly say to people what approach they get at our group (which is more „basic“ /traditional and self defense oriented jiu Jitsu). If somebody wants to learn the newest leglock systems to compete in no Gi tournaments, I would honestly send them to other schools around, who are more specialized in that.... No of both Approaches is better in my opinion... It depends on the context and purpose I think.
Hi Marco,
I'm actually trying to go in a different, yet admittedly similar direction.
Personally, I think this who thing relates more to the "What is Jiu-Jitsu" thread than anything else. Jiu-Jitsu wasn't gifted to the Gracies on golden tablets from heaven and I think the whole point to Jiu-Jitsu was to break away from the traditional "my word is law" attitude that dominates most traditional styles. To have the people to started this being the ones propagating this attitude now is, for me, more detrimental to Jiu-Jitsu than any "Sport vs Combat" debate we could be having.
That was the point I was trying to get at before. It's less an "all paths have merit" point and more a "if we had just followed what they said and nothing else things would probably be measurably worse as a result" point.
I'm actually trying to go in a different, yet admittedly similar direction.
Personally, I think this who thing relates more to the "What is Jiu-Jitsu" thread than anything else. Jiu-Jitsu wasn't gifted to the Gracies on golden tablets from heaven and I think the whole point to Jiu-Jitsu was to break away from the traditional "my word is law" attitude that dominates most traditional styles. To have the people to started this being the ones propagating this attitude now is, for me, more detrimental to Jiu-Jitsu than any "Sport vs Combat" debate we could be having.
That was the point I was trying to get at before. It's less an "all paths have merit" point and more a "if we had just followed what they said and nothing else things would probably be measurably worse as a result" point.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I think all Mundials champs of 2020 regardless of weight class could've done what Royce did in 1993 (if magically teleported back in time).
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I think all Mundials champs of 2020 regardless of weight class could've done what Royce did in 1993 (if magically teleported back in time).
Maybe the 2020 champs because the ones of that era including the great Amaury Bitetti got eaten up in MMA in the US.
The list of the ones who tried is long and terrible.
I like sport, defense and vale tudo. I really don't care what other people do.
If they can switch between techniques geared for sport and those geared more for fighting, they are going to be just fine no matter their main focus.
The list of the ones who tried is long and terrible.
I like sport, defense and vale tudo. I really don't care what other people do.
If they can switch between techniques geared for sport and those geared more for fighting, they are going to be just fine no matter their main focus.
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I think all Mundials champs of 2020 regardless of weight class could've done what Royce did in 1993 (if magically teleported back in time).
While I do think people like Bill Wallace are exaggerating greatly with the notion that the first UFC was a work, he did have one legitimate point. Back when Royce Gracie fought in the UFC, the world of martial arts was a very different place. "Fighting" back then was understood as hitting people. The idea of out grappling your opponent was fairly new back then. Case in point the fact that Ken Shamrock was the only actual grappler in the first UFC. Of course he had a major advantage as a result. No one was really experienced in that area and therefore had no defense. Shouldn't be a surprise to any of us nowadays. Think about how often new guys come to class and get folded up by people half their size.
Back then it was a revelation, today it would have been expected.
Back then it was a revelation, today it would have been expected.
NKBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
One point I really agree with is the his "a general can be a soldier but a solider cant be a general." Not that I agree with the overall statement and sentiment, but too many people avoid learning how to be a good coach/teacher. I found my greatest leap as a BJJ student was when I began teaching. Forcing yourself to really distill movements creates a new level of understanding. Forcing yourself to stop thinking like "a higher belt" an start seeing techniques as new again. Anyways haha we should all just train and be friends :D
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Dave, Bitetti is 5-2 and came in a crucial 2-3 years after UFC... I think he too could've easily won UFC 1.
JWBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Unpopular opinion here, I couldn't care less what any of the Gracies have to say on this matter. Everything I read from them on this topic always smacks less of people genuinely concerned about Jiu-Jitsu and the 'purity of the art' and more of butt hurt that they aren't top dogs in the sport anymore. And the whole yarn about 'losing combat effectiveness' is a load of BS. If we had been doing a carbon copy of what the Gracies taught, we'd never have developed the leg locks game to the level we have today, Nogi would be almost non-existent.
The Gracie's haven't been actually sport relevant since like 2003. BJJ Exists beyond them now.
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
My thoughts.
* Amaury Bitteti lost to Don Fyre. Don would've fucked up most people on the planet in those days.
* Reylson is known to be a shyster & caters to the super wealthy country club folks who don't want to sweat while they're 'working out'. (NOTE: this is NOT Relson. Relson is the real deal)
* Rickson needs to spend more time on weeding out the sex offenders in his organisation instead of lecturing people about sport bjj.
* Erik Paulson was wrecking shop doing full mma in shooto before ufc 1. One of the reason he wasn't put in, is because he was Royce's student at one point. I think he would've won it.
* Amaury Bitteti lost to Don Fyre. Don would've fucked up most people on the planet in those days.
* Reylson is known to be a shyster & caters to the super wealthy country club folks who don't want to sweat while they're 'working out'. (NOTE: this is NOT Relson. Relson is the real deal)
* Rickson needs to spend more time on weeding out the sex offenders in his organisation instead of lecturing people about sport bjj.
* Erik Paulson was wrecking shop doing full mma in shooto before ufc 1. One of the reason he wasn't put in, is because he was Royce's student at one point. I think he would've won it.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
![Slideyfoot [jun]](userimg/5e25cf311adfd.jpg){kind=small}
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
https://bjj-world.com/ric[...]jiu-jitsu/ https://www.bjj-spot.com/[...]jiu-jitsu/
Ah, the old "sport vs self defence" argument again? My opinion on this is essentially to each their own. Like the bicycle analogy mentioned earlier, BJJ is broad enough that you can take the parts you like, leave out the ones you don't. I find self defence mind numbingly boring and I also don't really care about competition, so I gear my training around longevity. I.e., what kind of techniques and types of training can I do that will mean I can still do it 50 years from now without getting bored.
When Rickson etc start banging on about self defence, I tend to assume several things are going on there at once. First is that yes, BJJ is no longer the vale tudo, "let's go Ryan Gracie on each other and bite off some ears" type of thing it used to be. Some people don't like that, they enjoyed that feeling that it was "real", with a close connection to both da streetz and MMA, like it had a few decades ago.
Second is that people like Rickson and others have become grumpy old men who don't like change. Though I'm sure Rickson (among others of his generation who talk a lot about self defence) is certainly not incapable of understanding new innovations (he's a super talented and experienced grappler, after all). I would guess he just doesn't want to understand them and thinks they're silly, though I don't know that for sure.
Third is that some people who have been finding that they no longer have much of a presence in the sport side of things have decided that self defence is a much better route, because they don't have to prove anything by pointing to titles or whatever, self defence 'success' is rather less quantifiable than competition success.
You could argue that the Gracie Academy in Torrance is an example of that: Rener and Ryron used to be pretty active in competition and could point to that. As the quality of jiu jitsu in the US shot up, that stopped being a viable route without going all in for competition success like Alliance back in the day, or Atos now. Though saying that, I like Rener (I met him for an interview a few years ago) and think on balance he's good for the sport, so I don't want to cast unfounded aspersions. :)
When Rickson etc start banging on about self defence, I tend to assume several things are going on there at once. First is that yes, BJJ is no longer the vale tudo, "let's go Ryan Gracie on each other and bite off some ears" type of thing it used to be. Some people don't like that, they enjoyed that feeling that it was "real", with a close connection to both da streetz and MMA, like it had a few decades ago.
Second is that people like Rickson and others have become grumpy old men who don't like change. Though I'm sure Rickson (among others of his generation who talk a lot about self defence) is certainly not incapable of understanding new innovations (he's a super talented and experienced grappler, after all). I would guess he just doesn't want to understand them and thinks they're silly, though I don't know that for sure.
Third is that some people who have been finding that they no longer have much of a presence in the sport side of things have decided that self defence is a much better route, because they don't have to prove anything by pointing to titles or whatever, self defence 'success' is rather less quantifiable than competition success.
You could argue that the Gracie Academy in Torrance is an example of that: Rener and Ryron used to be pretty active in competition and could point to that. As the quality of jiu jitsu in the US shot up, that stopped being a viable route without going all in for competition success like Alliance back in the day, or Atos now. Though saying that, I like Rener (I met him for an interview a few years ago) and think on balance he's good for the sport, so I don't want to cast unfounded aspersions. :)
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Ah, the old "sport vs self defence" argument again?
As far as my personal experience is concerned, I've honestly yet to meet someone give this argument without using it as an excuse for why they got submitted in a roll, lost a match or don't learn particular techniques. Happens so often now that I just can't take it seriously anymore.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Reality is you'd all still be practicing your katas right now if it weren't for the Gracies talking so much shit and creating the UFC.
It probably would have eventually been brought to US but the majority never heard of bjj until then.
Now it just sounds like a bunch of butt hurt folks bitching about the has been Gracies. Whether or not they are relevant now is not important. The fact remains, no one heard of this crap until them. Who cares what Rickson has to say anyway, he is not relevant, remember?
I have personally never seen or heard anyone make an excuse for getting tapped using the self defense training argument. That sounds ridiculous either way.
It probably would have eventually been brought to US but the majority never heard of bjj until then.
Now it just sounds like a bunch of butt hurt folks bitching about the has been Gracies. Whether or not they are relevant now is not important. The fact remains, no one heard of this crap until them. Who cares what Rickson has to say anyway, he is not relevant, remember?
I have personally never seen or heard anyone make an excuse for getting tapped using the self defense training argument. That sounds ridiculous either way.
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I have personally never seen or heard anyone make an excuse for getting tapped using the self defense training argument. That sounds ridiculous either way.
Really? I'll just leave this here then. Not doubting you're word, but it's definitely not a new thing.
https://youtu.be/FMCUTSTZvAA
I readily agree it's stupid,but people aren't exactly the most rational at times.
https://youtu.be/FMCUTSTZvAA
I readily agree it's stupid,but people aren't exactly the most rational at times.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
"Relson is the real deal" Yes he is but he also says the same stuff. I guess he get a pass.
"Amaury Bitteti lost to Don Fyre. Don would've fucked up most people on the planet in those days."
I used Amaury as an example because he was already well versed in Vale Tudo at the time and was a top competitor in the sport as well.
Wouldn't that have given him the advantage over Fry?
"Reylson" yes he has rep for $$$
"Rickson needs to spend more time on weeding out the sex offenders in his organisation instead of lecturing people about sport bjj."
I do not disagree with this but will add that Gracie Barra needs to do the same. Other teams as well but that is not relevant to the discussion.
" Erik Paulson was wrecking shop doing full mma in shooto before ufc 1. One of the reason he wasn't put in, is because he was Royce's student at one point. I think he would've won it."
This is very possible but we will never know as hindsight is always 20/20. We could name alot of guys that could have possibly done it. Ken Shamrock wasn't able to and he was experienced.
I am not convince alot of guys could have pulled it off in the format the UFC had at the time. The multiple fights in one night was tough.
"Amaury Bitteti lost to Don Fyre. Don would've fucked up most people on the planet in those days."
I used Amaury as an example because he was already well versed in Vale Tudo at the time and was a top competitor in the sport as well.
Wouldn't that have given him the advantage over Fry?
"Reylson" yes he has rep for $$$
"Rickson needs to spend more time on weeding out the sex offenders in his organisation instead of lecturing people about sport bjj."
I do not disagree with this but will add that Gracie Barra needs to do the same. Other teams as well but that is not relevant to the discussion.
" Erik Paulson was wrecking shop doing full mma in shooto before ufc 1. One of the reason he wasn't put in, is because he was Royce's student at one point. I think he would've won it."
This is very possible but we will never know as hindsight is always 20/20. We could name alot of guys that could have possibly done it. Ken Shamrock wasn't able to and he was experienced.
I am not convince alot of guys could have pulled it off in the format the UFC had at the time. The multiple fights in one night was tough.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Reality is you'd all still be practicing your katas right now if it weren't for the Gracies talking so much shit and creating the UFC.
Yep, that's also very true. Rorion in particular deserves a great deal of credit for bringing BJJ outside of Brazil. It is entirely possible none of us would be training without all the hard work he and his sons (not to mention his brothers and cousins) put into spreading the sport, so he'll always have my respect for that.
I would love to train with him some day, I've heard many times that he is/was an amazing teacher. So far, closest I've come to that is him poking his head around the door when I was doing an interview with Rener and saying "hi." It was a pretty good Hi, but sadly not quite enough to make my jiu jitsu better. :P
I would love to train with him some day, I've heard many times that he is/was an amazing teacher. So far, closest I've come to that is him poking his head around the door when I was doing an interview with Rener and saying "hi." It was a pretty good Hi, but sadly not quite enough to make my jiu jitsu better. :P
Edited 5 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Really? I'll just leave this here then. Not doubting you're word, but it's definitely not a new thing. https://youtu.be/FMCUTSTZvAA I readily agree it's stupid,but people aren't exactly the most rational at times.
this guy is referring to beginners. great video! Lol
Beginners say all kinds of stupid shit.
They also tap because of fatigue, knee on belly etc, which is also a no no.
I had a Krav Maga guy tell me he only trains for life and death. I am sure not all Krav Maga guys say that.
Beginners say all kinds of stupid shit.
They also tap because of fatigue, knee on belly etc, which is also a no no.
I had a Krav Maga guy tell me he only trains for life and death. I am sure not all Krav Maga guys say that.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Yep, that's also very true. Rorion in particular deserves a great deal of credit for bringing BJJ outside of Brazil. It is entirely possible none of us would be training without all the hard work he and his sons (not to mention his brothers and cousins) put into spreading the sport, so he'll always have my respect for that. I would love to train with him some day, I've heard many times that he is/was an amazing teacher. So far, closest I've come to that is him poking his head around the door when I was doing an interview with Rener and saying 'hi.' It was a pretty good Hi, but sadly not quite enough to make my jiu jitsu better. :P
Rorion is a good teacher but he is very full of himself. If you just separate his jits from his ego and revisionist history, you'll be fine.
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
.....I have personally never seen or heard anyone make an excuse for getting tapped using the self defense training argument. That sounds ridiculous either way.
Tapping is learning.... Everybody who trains bjj knows tapping isn’t a bad thing to do.
I don’t like the old „sports“ vs self defense debate. Everything evolves!
What I find kind of odd is people saying, „BJJ“ is only ground work or only grappling and they would add Krav Maga, etc....to get self defense ready.
That is , because they might only know this one approach or their coach only teaches this specific aspect of the art.
But others train with punches and lots of stand up Clinch like back in the days or they need it for their profession (Law Enforcement for example).
There isn’t one „BJJ“ or Jiu Jitsu anymore.....
Therefore I like the bicycle comparison I posted above.
But what all approaches have in common: they are all alive and you work against resisting opponents and you do sparring ( independent of Gi, no gi, with punches, without punches).
I don’t like the old „sports“ vs self defense debate. Everything evolves!
What I find kind of odd is people saying, „BJJ“ is only ground work or only grappling and they would add Krav Maga, etc....to get self defense ready.
That is , because they might only know this one approach or their coach only teaches this specific aspect of the art.
But others train with punches and lots of stand up Clinch like back in the days or they need it for their profession (Law Enforcement for example).
There isn’t one „BJJ“ or Jiu Jitsu anymore.....
Therefore I like the bicycle comparison I posted above.
But what all approaches have in common: they are all alive and you work against resisting opponents and you do sparring ( independent of Gi, no gi, with punches, without punches).
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
At the same we can't call motorcycles bicycles and then there are e-bikes and what if someone has a bike that has wheels shaped like squares and calls it a bike...
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
But what all approaches have in common: they are all alive and you work against resisting opponents and you do sparring ( independent of Gi, no gi, with punches, without punches).
And here is where the core issue is I think. Like I said in the "Definition of BJJ" thread, if we say every variation someone creates is BJJ, then this makes everything BJJ and the term is meaningless. I could include teaching computer science in my BJJ classes and call it BJJ and that would be just as valid as everything else (I'm intentionally being hyperbolic here to make a point).
I would say here the core is what BJJ is, not the infinite variations and add ons, but the core. In other words, the things we all have in common and you'll find in more or less every BJJ school. They will vary in focus and expression, but the DNA will still be the same.
Looping this back to the original post, if the Gracies want to have a form of BJJ that focuses on striking, takedowns and self defense, they can go hog wild. Jazz it up with swords and spears for all I care, go freaking nuts! In fact, I think we can more or less say they already did this. There's a reason they call what they do Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and not Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, after all. However, the part where the whole thing falls apart is their statements that BJJ doesn't exist if it doesn't conform to what they say is BJJ.
I would say here the core is what BJJ is, not the infinite variations and add ons, but the core. In other words, the things we all have in common and you'll find in more or less every BJJ school. They will vary in focus and expression, but the DNA will still be the same.
Looping this back to the original post, if the Gracies want to have a form of BJJ that focuses on striking, takedowns and self defense, they can go hog wild. Jazz it up with swords and spears for all I care, go freaking nuts! In fact, I think we can more or less say they already did this. There's a reason they call what they do Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and not Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, after all. However, the part where the whole thing falls apart is their statements that BJJ doesn't exist if it doesn't conform to what they say is BJJ.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
But what all approaches have in common: they are all alive and you work against resisting opponents and you do sparring ( independent of Gi, no gi, with punches, without punches).
The "traditional Gracie self-defence" was and probably in many places still is DEAD TECHNIQUES DRILLED IN DEAD MANNER AGAINST UNRESISITNG OPPONENTS.
DHPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Based on the bike analogy, here's some words from Chris Haueter I feel are pertinent: https://youtu.be/5V-ucGFMTE8?t=1104
TMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
And here is where the core issue is I think. Like I said in the 'Definition of BJJ' thread, if we say every variation someone creates is BJJ, then this makes everything BJJ and the term is meaningless. I could include teaching computer science in my BJJ classes and call it BJJ and that would be just as valid as everything else (I'm intentionally being hyperbolic here to make a point). I would say here the core is what BJJ is, not the infinite variations and add ons, but the core. In other words, the things we all have in common and you'll find in more or less every BJJ school. They will vary in focus and expression, but the DNA will still be the same. Looping this back to the original post, if the Gracies want to have a form of BJJ that focuses on striking, takedowns and self defense, they can go hog wild. Jazz it up with swords and spears for all I care, go freaking nuts! In fact, I think we can more or less say they already did this. There's a reason they call what they do Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and not Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, after all. However, the part where the whole thing falls apart is their statements that BJJ doesn't exist if it doesn't conform to what they say is BJJ.
I like your point about them calling it Gracie Jiu Jitsu vs Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It also makes sense from a business point of view for them. They have consistently (and successfully) managed to get people to follow their belief system and regulation of BJJ. Whether you agree with what they are doing or not they had a strangle hold on the BJJ business for years using tactics like this.
It's just recently that people have begun to challenge their beliefs and control. I for one refuse to register with IBJJF. My school is affiliated, my liniage easily traceable, imo that should be sufficient. That's one of the reasons I signed up for this site. It's like blockchain for BJJ.
It's just recently that people have begun to challenge their beliefs and control. I for one refuse to register with IBJJF. My school is affiliated, my liniage easily traceable, imo that should be sufficient. That's one of the reasons I signed up for this site. It's like blockchain for BJJ.
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Based on the bike analogy, here's some words from Chris Haueter I feel are pertinent: https://youtu.be/5V-ucGFMTE8?t=1104
Yeah! Heard that many times and I think it is a great definition by Chris Haueter.
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
The 'traditional Gracie self-defence' was and probably in many places still is DEAD TECHNIQUES DRILLED IN DEAD MANNER AGAINST UNRESISITNG OPPONENTS.
You are right....This is often the case, I think. It is off topic, but I like the triple I method of SBG, introduction, isolation integration....so you can definitely can train self defense oriented with timing, energy and motion in my opinion.
That said, independent of purpose, definition or curriculum,
I love being on the mat rolling and enjoy learning/teaching and it is the martial art/sport I got the most positive out of when I compare it to other martial arts/ systems I trained within the last 20 years.
That said, independent of purpose, definition or curriculum,
I love being on the mat rolling and enjoy learning/teaching and it is the martial art/sport I got the most positive out of when I compare it to other martial arts/ systems I trained within the last 20 years.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
The 'traditional Gracie self-defence' was and probably in many places still is DEAD TECHNIQUES DRILLED IN DEAD MANNER AGAINST UNRESISITNG OPPONENTS.
Indeed. In a lot of the ways, BJJ/GJJ schools like the Valente Bros and other places that get super duper obsessed about 'self defence' are doing pretty much the exact same thing as the kooky trad jj, aikido etc schools, which back in the day the Gracies used to laugh at. It's been an interesting and somewhat worrying regression, I would argue.
Sure, self defence was always a big part of what Carlos, Helio and the rest of the brothers advertised, but previously it was also coupled with plenty of competition. That's what kept the art fresh and alive, testing what your students have learned from you against students from other schools, to make sure it isn't wank. So it is concerning that over the last few years, people like Rickson and others have increasingly turned their noses up at comps.
If that disconnect gets serious, then I would not be surprised if those schools eventually turn into aikido equivalents with a 'our techniques are too deadly for sparring, we train for the st33tz' vibe.
Sure, self defence was always a big part of what Carlos, Helio and the rest of the brothers advertised, but previously it was also coupled with plenty of competition. That's what kept the art fresh and alive, testing what your students have learned from you against students from other schools, to make sure it isn't wank. So it is concerning that over the last few years, people like Rickson and others have increasingly turned their noses up at comps.
If that disconnect gets serious, then I would not be surprised if those schools eventually turn into aikido equivalents with a 'our techniques are too deadly for sparring, we train for the st33tz' vibe.
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
a 'our techniques are too deadly for sparring, we train for the st33tz' vibe.
Pfft!
It's "FO DA STREEZ" not "for the str33ts"!!!!!!!
It's "FO DA STREEZ" not "for the str33ts"!!!!!!!
Edited 5 year(s) ago
