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Was I wrong?!

5 year(s) ago • 1320 views • 59 replies

David Ferrazzano
David Ferrazzano
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
Last night I was rolling with a blue belt in his late 40's. I caught him in a loop choke and pulled him back into my guard. He then winds up and punches me in the ribs.

I let go and ask him what that was and he said he was just trying to get out. Oook slap hands and I then catch him in the exact same choke accept I make sure it's really tight and I hold it a couple seconds after he tapped. He didn't pass out, but he got the message

My professor sees the red mark across his neck that the gi left and commented that I have to not be so aggressive . I explained what happened and the guy apologized to me.

Did I cross the line? In my opinion a blue belt should know better
R. David Gonzalez
R. David Gonzalez
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4764 forum posts34325/1000
5 year(s) ago
Last night I was rolling with a blue belt in his late 40's. I caught him in a loop choke and pulled him back into my guard. He then winds up and punches me in the ribs. I let go and ask him what that was and he said he was just trying to get out. Oook slap hands and I then catch him in the exact same choke accept I make sure it's really tight and I hold it a couple seconds after he tapped. He didn't pass out, but he got the message My professor sees the red mark across his neck that the gi left and commented that I have to not be so aggressive . I explained what happened and the guy apologized to me. Did I cross the line? In my opinion a blue belt should know better
Sounds like he was out of line and his ego took a blow. Your instructor should have pulled the student aside and explained what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in training.
David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
Sounds like he was out of line and his ego took a blow. Your instructor should have pulled the student aside and explained what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in training.
I think my instructor understands now, especially since I am the type to let lower belts work their game a little and I never get mad at incidental bumps and all that

David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
Sounds like you had to lay down some mat enforcer mode on him, legit to me!
Yea I honestly think the only way for people to get what they did was shitty is to show them . Bet he doesn't do it again
Deepu
Deepu
Black beltVerified547 forum posts6260/1000
5 year(s) ago
Not respecting the tap (i.e. holding on longer) I won't condone. You're in the wrong for that. I've been in similar situations before, which have resulted in, ahem, way worse outcomes than yours did, so I can't really preach about what you should have done. But you have to respect the tap, not doing it sets a bad precedent.
David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
Not respecting the tap (i.e. holding on longer) I won't condone. You're in the wrong for that. I've been in similar situations before, which have resulted in, ahem, way worse outcomes than yours did, so I can't really preach about what you should have done. But you have to respect the tap, not doing it sets a bad precedent.
I don't disagree. I was angry and I can't allow that to be the norm, which it isn't. It was fast though.

This is the most extreme example with this guy but nothing seems to work. He's been talked to. I was hoping the message would be sent. To cut the shit
Joe_Wick
Joe_wick
Blue beltVerified183 forum posts4080/200
5 year(s) ago
Yeah, you were justified with everything up to not letting go after he tapped. I can understand the temptation though for sure. A choke is a little different from an armbar or any kind of lock though.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
Daniël Bertina
Daniël Bertina
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified880 forum posts15560/1000
5 year(s) ago
Holding chokes is a slippery slope. Just tap him quickly with the same move, forever.

Best course of action would be also stating the obvious:

"Dudeman. I notice you punched me in the ribs. This is not MMA. Let's not do that."

Understand, a section of the population might be on the spectrum (or just plain crazy), and cannot understand subtext in conversations.


David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
Yeah, you were justified with everything up to not letting go after he tapped. I can understand the temptation though for sure. A choke is a little different from an armbar or any kind of lock though.
They are different but I'm not going to power through a joint lock and permanently disable anyone. To me the choke was more appropriate and I'm talked 1-2 seconds .
David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
Holding chokes is a slippery slope. Just tap him quickly with the same move, forever. Best course of action would be also stating the obvious: 'Dudeman. I notice you punched me in the ribs. This is not MMA. Let's not do that.' Understand, a section of the population might be on the spectrum (or just plain crazy), and cannot understand subtext in conversations.
Talk does nothing for him. This is past hey man that wasn't cool.

I'm also talking 1-2 seconds. Could he have passed out? Sure but I got a fast tap too.

Not something I ever do. I give everyone a chance to tap even at the risk of losing the submission. I never want to be the reason someone gets hurt
Matt Meyer
Matt Meyer
Black belt 1st degreeVerified32 forum posts1620/1000
5 year(s) ago
Always respect the tap, no matter what the guy did. The tap is a sacred contract that you have with your training partner. They tap, you let go. I would have taken you to task over that.

In your career you will roll will all kinds. Mostly it is going to be new people, but sometimes you meet them in upper ranks. They will bite you, punch you, grab your nuts, pull your hair, head but you, gouge you, etc etc etc.
Your job, as a graduate rank, is first, recognize what is going on and deal with the threat. It is self-defense 101, neutralize their attack, second is to inform the person that they are wrong, and allow them to correct their behavior.

Some people just have a hard time with the roll. They panic. Getting caught with a choke or being crushed in a pin or pressure situation triggers premortal instincts, that can manifest in obviously illegal, in BJJ, behavior. Work with the student to find out why they reacted that way. Then work on getting that person comfortable with being uncomfortable.
David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
Always respect the tap, no matter what the guy did. The tap is a sacred contract that you have with your training partner. They tap, you let go. I would have taken you to task over that. In your career you will roll will all kinds. Mostly it is going to be new people, but sometimes you meet them in upper ranks. They will bite you, punch you, grab your nuts, pull your hair, head but you, gouge you, etc etc etc. Your job, as a graduate rank, is first, recognize what is going on and deal with the threat. It is self-defense 101, neutralize their attack, second is to inform the person that they are wrong, and allow them to correct their behavior. Some people just have a hard time with the roll. They panic. Getting caught with a choke or being crushed in a pin or pressure situation triggers premortal instincts, that can manifest in obviously illegal, in BJJ, behavior. Work with the student to find out why they reacted that way. Then work on getting that person comfortable with being uncomfortable.
This is a great response. You are 100% correct , I do think my emotion took over as it's nothing I've ever encountered on the mat, especially from a blue belt. But you are correct. Thank you
John A. Byrne
John A. Byrne
Black beltVerified1013 forum posts6370/1000
5 year(s) ago
Yea as time passes I'm more upset with my reaction. It's not me
Perhaps what will get thru to this person is if you apologize and tell him why, maybe it will impress upon him that what he did disrespected your body and is not BJJ. Of course I only mention this as I was in a similar situation and reacted after being punched in the face somewhat similarly (my next takedown had way more pizza / ooomf) and you mention remorse / not what you are.

He may not get it, but it sounds like you'd feel better.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
Perhaps what will get thru to this person is if you apologize and tell him why, maybe it will impress upon him that what he did disrespected your body and is not BJJ. Of course I only mention this as I was in a similar situation and reacted after being punched in the face somewhat similarly (my next takedown had way more pizza / ooomf) and you mention remorse / not what you are. He may not get it, but it sounds like you'd feel better.
I like this. Best he gets it... worst case I feel better for taking it further than needed.
James Jones
James Jones
Black beltVerified1309 forum posts6475/1000
5 year(s) ago
In some places if you hold onto a tap more than 2 seconds after the tap you better be ready to fight for real. lol

If you really want to prove a point to someone put them in a horrible position that is just short of them tapping but very uncomfortable and just leave them in that position for a few minutes and make them feel miserable. Don't give them the mercy of finishing them.

Tapping someone is not always the best way to send a message. Controlling someone while seeming bored or using no energy at all, just hanging out in someone's space like your reading the newspaper can sometimes have a puzzling calming affect on people and get them to start asking questions and slowing down.
David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
In some places if you hold onto a tap more than 2 seconds after the tap you better be ready to fight for real. lol If you really want to prove a point to someone put them in a horrible position that is just short of them tapping but very uncomfortable and just leave them in that position for a few minutes and make them feel miserable. Don't give them the mercy of finishing them. Tapping someone is not always the best way to send a message. Controlling someone while seeming bored or using no energy at all, just hanging out in someone's space like your reading the newspaper can sometimes have a puzzling calming affect on people and get them to start asking questions and slowing down.
I agree completely.. I would say punching can lead to a real fight as well though.

Next time, 100% I will jump on this advice and smother as long as possible.
Daniël Bertina
Daniël Bertina
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified880 forum posts15560/1000
5 year(s) ago
You know what's great?

We had an actual, respectful exchange of ideas here, and the OP changed his mind.

If this subject was addressed at an anonymous site, i bet we'd all dug our heels in and resorted to tough guy posing.

Just sayin'
David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
You know what's great? We had an actual, respectful exchange of ideas here, and the OP changed his mind. If this subject was addressed at an anonymous site, i bet we'd all dug our heels in and resorted to tough guy posing. Just sayin'
If I felt completely justified I wouldn't have posed the question at all. My head was spinning over it.

But I agree. The exchange of ideas on here is great. I'm going to keep this incident in my back pocket for a learning tool for someone else
Michael Guarneri, Jr.
Michael Guarneri, Jr.
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified82 forum posts1945/1000
5 year(s) ago
In some places if you hold onto a tap more than 2 seconds after the tap you better be ready to fight for real. lol If you really want to prove a point to someone put them in a horrible position that is just short of them tapping but very uncomfortable and just leave them in that position for a few minutes and make them feel miserable. Don't give them the mercy of finishing them. Tapping someone is not always the best way to send a message. Controlling someone while seeming bored or using no energy at all, just hanging out in someone's space like your reading the newspaper can sometimes have a puzzling calming affect on people and get them to start asking questions and slowing down.
I agree with this. Maybe give him some knee on belly, harder than normal, aka the Knee of justice. He will realize very quickly. Switch from one dominating position to another. Get subs but don't finish. It will make the point. 9/10 times he will know exactly why you have turned it up. If he didn't and asks why let him know that punching in BJJ is never called for, that's why we have MMA.
David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
let him know that punching in BJJ is never called for, that's why we have MMA.
10/10 with a white belt my approach would have been a conversation right away. What pissed me off is he's a blue belt and this isn't his first incident, just most extreme. In my opinion blue belts should know better.

But I do agree I took it too far. Next time I smash on top for a long time
Daniël Bertina
Daniël Bertina
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified880 forum posts15560/1000
5 year(s) ago
10/10 with a white belt my approach would have been a conversation right away. What pissed me off is he's a blue belt and this isn't his first incident, just most extreme. In my opinion blue belts should know better. But I do agree I took it too far. Next time I smash on top for a long time
If this is a recurring theme with said blue belt, I think the instructor should step in and have a sit down with him.

Let him know this behavious is unacceptable.

Show him the door if he doens't get the message.
David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
If this is a recurring theme with said blue belt, I think the instructor should step in and have a sit down with him. Let him know this behavious is unacceptable. Show him the door if he doens't get the message.
I have never been the type to bitch about other students but maybe I should talk to the instructor . It's far from his first incident. Bending fingers and other douchey things that are a no no .

This can't continue, if he's rolling with with someone less experienced it could end really bad
Olivier Hennau
Olivier Hennau
Black belt 1st degreeVerified219 forum posts6675/1000
5 year(s) ago
The punches should have him being kicked out by the intsructor...or at least a mat enforcer round (or 2-3)

The guy is a blue belt...not a noob..he have no excuse..you no bitch if you talk to the instructor....i bet he want to know if those shit happens in his dojo

If you are too angry to continue with him next time, Simply change partner, explaining why.
Do not let those stupid Guys making you react and cross the line next time.

You are cool enough to question your behavior...next time be smart quickly...avoiding the bad waves and "night without sleep"

Edited 5 year(s) ago
Michael Guarneri, Jr.
Michael Guarneri, Jr.
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified82 forum posts1945/1000
5 year(s) ago
The punches should have him being kicked out by the intsructor...or at least a mat enforcer round (or 2-3) The guy is a blue belt...not a noob..he have no excuse..you no bitch if you talk to the instructor....i bet he want to know if those shit happens in his dojo If you are too angry to continue with him next time, Simply change partner, explaining why. Do not let those stupid Guys making you react and cross the line next time. You are cool enough to question your behavior...next time be smart quickly...avoiding the bad waves and 'night without sleep'
Also, to add to this. You can refuse to roll with him and when he asks why tell him. He bends fingers, punches and other dirty training tactics.
David Ferrazzano
David FerrazzanoOP
Black beltVerified239 forum posts2400/1000
5 year(s) ago
Also, to add to this. You can refuse to roll with him and when he asks why tell him. He bends fingers, punches and other dirty training tactics.
Maybe I should do that. It's something I've never done but the reaction that came out of me isn't worth it... an unnecessary injury isn't either
Bridget Jack Jeffries
Bridget Jack Jeffries
Blue beltVerified621 forum posts3340/200
5 year(s) ago
I try to teach my son that tapping isn't losing, it's withdrawing consent to what's happening to you. When you tap you are taking back your power and autonomy, not giving it up. That's why the tap is extremely sacred and should be respected.

That said, what you are saying about this guy disturbs me, especially that he's been talked to repeatedly and isn't listening. Me personally, I wouldn't roll with a guy like that (but I'm the only woman in my class and live in fear of being injured). I wouldn't roll with anyone if they'd hit me to get me to release a sub. Maybe when enough people don't want to work with him, he'll wake up.

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