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Injuries. Who’s at fault?
5 year(s) ago • 835 views • 17 replies
MGPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
My friend recently got his young daughter in BJJ at another local school. Tonight he posted on Facebook that she broke her arm while posting it during a takedown. He stated that they have not been taught break falls and had break falls been taught, the likelihood of this injury occurring would’ve been dramatically reduced.
Training as an adult I’ve always looked at injuries as an obvious risk, so in the absence of something egregious, the fault was my own. However, I feel the onus may shift slightly when it comes to young kids training. Does anyone feel that the instructor may share some blame for this injury?
Training as an adult I’ve always looked at injuries as an obvious risk, so in the absence of something egregious, the fault was my own. However, I feel the onus may shift slightly when it comes to young kids training. Does anyone feel that the instructor may share some blame for this injury?
LMBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I think if you were to think about risk assessment and risk management slips/trips and falls would be a potential risk of any martial arts class. I have seen a lot of guys talk about running a fundamentals type class where options are limited until you have been signed of on the 10 weeks basic course covering break falls grips and don't do that's etc.
I guess if you had somone new and they did not yet understand breakfalls and you were teaching high doubles or katagaruma its kinda your fault they got injured. But if you have taken the time to ensure they have a foundation in break falls before being thrown I think your covered and there is less onus on the coach. Martial Arts are a contact sport and there will be injuries its just doing your best as a coach to minimize the potential and reduce the risks involved.
That may be in the way of training in a particular area (Break Falls) or in control measures such as PPE, Crash Matts of a sufficient thickness, adequate pairing of students or modified technique until skilled in a particular area.
I guess if you had somone new and they did not yet understand breakfalls and you were teaching high doubles or katagaruma its kinda your fault they got injured. But if you have taken the time to ensure they have a foundation in break falls before being thrown I think your covered and there is less onus on the coach. Martial Arts are a contact sport and there will be injuries its just doing your best as a coach to minimize the potential and reduce the risks involved.
That may be in the way of training in a particular area (Break Falls) or in control measures such as PPE, Crash Matts of a sufficient thickness, adequate pairing of students or modified technique until skilled in a particular area.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
DHPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
If the girl wasn't taught how to fall safely and wasn't asked on the night (being new) if she knew how, that school has failed to meet its duty of care to her.
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Bjj schools don't teach enough ukemi. That said, accidents will happen regardless, hell just look at the injury rates in Judo. With kids it's touchy though, they really should be taught how to fall a lot more than throws.
MGPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Bjj schools don't teach enough ukemi. That said, accidents will happen regardless, hell just look at the injury rates in Judo. With kids it's touchy though, they really should be taught how to fall a lot more than throws.
That’s true. I think it’s rare that we do break falls in BJJ class. Accidents are going to happen, but great care should be taken to minimize the odds. That said, being new, she may have done the same thing even if break falls were a regular part of the curriculum.
RBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Break falls should be taught. We do them pretty regularly as part of our warm-up. It may not be a hundred repetitions, but every set of shrimps or stand-in-base are preceeded by a breakfall. There's a foundation set of classes that brand new students need to complete when they first join the gym too, and break falls are taught there.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Break falls are fundamental and should be taught and trained regularly.
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Break falls should be taught. We do them pretty regularly as part of our warm-up. It may not be a hundred repetitions, but every set of shrimps or stand-in-base are preceeded by a breakfall. There's a foundation set of classes that brand new students need to complete when they first join the gym too, and break falls are taught there.
That's the way most bjj classes teach break falls, as part of the warm up. Not enough imo. Falling when getting dumped from a double leg is not quite the same thing.
RBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
The problem is, you can't possibly practice the specific breakfall for each type of throw or takedown. There are front, rear, side, front roll, and back roll break falls, but if you start your roll standing up you're undoubtedly going to get taken down in a way that isn't directly conducive to one specific version. It's learning to relax the right way, keep your chin tucked, disperse energy, and protect the important areas. Embracing the fall so to speak, since we're falling on mats vs. concrete or another solid surface. So outside of getting some reps in on basic concepts, the rest of the practice will come when you're actually falling from a takedown either during takedown technique or sparring. That's why the fundamentals of break falls are taught more regularly and indepth during fundamental training and then re-inforced during warm-ups with break falls leading into shrimps, stand-in-base, or in the form of warm-up forward, side, and rear rolls.
I'm not saying *not to* incorporate breakfall work, and maybe it should be done with more regularity, but I think the reason a lot of BJJ schools practice it the way I described is because they are trying to balance class time with other techniques and training modalities.
I'm not saying *not to* incorporate breakfall work, and maybe it should be done with more regularity, but I think the reason a lot of BJJ schools practice it the way I described is because they are trying to balance class time with other techniques and training modalities.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
DHPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
It's sad that I actually got proper breakfall training at karate but none at BJJ...
TKBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
To be fair my wife had been taught proper break falls but, as a white belt, still posted her arm as she was being taking down in a competition and injured herself. So, yes imo they should be taught but that doesn't mean someone will use the technique when the time comes.
MGPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
To be fair my wife had been taught proper break falls but, as a white belt, still posted her arm as she was being taking down in a competition and injured herself. So, yes imo they should be taught but that doesn't mean someone will use the technique when the time comes.
And this is why I have a hard time agreeing that it’s the instructors fault.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
If they are not teaching people to fall correctly then honestly they should NOT be teaching take downs at all and are irresponsible
JABlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Bjj schools don't teach enough ukemi. That said, accidents will happen regardless, hell just look at the injury rates in Judo. With kids it's touchy though, they really should be taught how to fall a lot more than throws.
In Judo that's like the first 6 months. Heck for kid's the first belt, blue is literally all ukemi. When I teach adults I always start with ukemi, even judokas.
TPBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
And this is why I have a hard time agreeing that it’s the instructors fault.
Yes, kinda difficult question. Breakfalls are definitely under practiced in BJJ, but at what point beginners should start learn stand-up & takedowns then?
It can take a long time to kill the instinct to post a hand when you're suddenly falling. Perhaps the judo way of doing mostly ukemis for 6 months as a kid will do it, otherwise I'm not so sure. One can practice breakfalls properly (but occasionally) in training for a number of years and still the old natural reaction takes over one critical instance. I've had this happen to a friend too (posting a hand), in a competition, after already a few years of training (dislocating the shoulder).
It can take a long time to kill the instinct to post a hand when you're suddenly falling. Perhaps the judo way of doing mostly ukemis for 6 months as a kid will do it, otherwise I'm not so sure. One can practice breakfalls properly (but occasionally) in training for a number of years and still the old natural reaction takes over one critical instance. I've had this happen to a friend too (posting a hand), in a competition, after already a few years of training (dislocating the shoulder).
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Side comment:
I think, if there's ONE skillset a human being needs in order not to die (at any age), it's probably the skill of breakfalling / rolling / ground engagement.
I've had a few potentially catastrophic crashes in traffic, doing a full flip on my bicycle, but I saved my tail doing proper ukemi.
I think, if there's ONE skillset a human being needs in order not to die (at any age), it's probably the skill of breakfalling / rolling / ground engagement.
I've had a few potentially catastrophic crashes in traffic, doing a full flip on my bicycle, but I saved my tail doing proper ukemi.
TPBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Side comment: I think, if there's ONE skillset a human being needs in order not to die (at any age), it's probably the skill of breakfalling / rolling / ground engagement. I've had a few potentially catastrophic crashes in traffic, doing a full flip on my bicycle, but I saved my tail doing proper ukemi.
Very true. Has saved my ass (head/limbs) on a number of bike accidents.
Same with the wife, who has not actually practiced ukemis, but used to play volleyball and thus is used to diving on hard floor the proper way.
Same with the wife, who has not actually practiced ukemis, but used to play volleyball and thus is used to diving on hard floor the proper way.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
