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Aoki style ankle lock
4 year(s) ago • 5843 views • 20 replies
DCPurple beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
Victor Hugo hit this ankle lock on Mahamad Aly last week at Jiu Jitsu Con and some people are questioning whether or not it should be legal. Do any of you teach this at your schools? And would you encourage it? It's a bit of a grey area so I'm hesitant in using it in tournaments. Jon Thomas has a good video on it (linked below).
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]amp;t=268s
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]amp;t=268s
JABlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
Victor Hugo hit this ankle lock on Mahamad Aly last week at Jiu Jitsu Con and some people are questioning whether or not it should be legal. Do any of you teach this at your schools? And would you encourage it? It's a bit of a grey area so I'm hesitant in using it in tournaments. Jon Thomas has a good video on it (linked below). https://www.youtube.com/w[...]amp;t=268s
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. It's an ankle lock, just the breaking mechanic makes it more heel hooky - seems legal in that sense, attacker is grabbing ankle only, not heel. Seems like a legit sub to me.
JJBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
I feel like Estima locks are more dangerous and those are legal.
CBBrown beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
I say keep it. I'm actually personally for legalizing heel hooks for gi also. The most dangerous technique in BJJ that has the highest level of serious injury is actually guard jumping, and we keep that legal.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I feel like Estima locks are more dangerous and those are legal.
Isn't Estima legal only brownbelt and up? That was essentially equalized to a toehold. However mechanically Aoki is similar to a heelhook...
Anyway - in regards these things it'll depend if your opponent is favored by the ref or not based on some criteria :)
I was once almst disqualified for reaping if my opponent (who was beating me on points anyway) hadn't told the ref that no no, that wasn't a reap :D
(Also there was this time where the ref missed multiple advantage scoring situations because he was enjoying the match on the mat next to ours... but that's another story)
Anyway - in regards these things it'll depend if your opponent is favored by the ref or not based on some criteria :)
I was once almst disqualified for reaping if my opponent (who was beating me on points anyway) hadn't told the ref that no no, that wasn't a reap :D
(Also there was this time where the ref missed multiple advantage scoring situations because he was enjoying the match on the mat next to ours... but that's another story)
Edited 4 year(s) ago
CBBrown beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
(Also there was this time where the ref missed multiple advantage scoring situations because he was enjoying the match on the mat next to ours... but that's another story)
I feel your pain there. Last tournament I was at had some of the worst refs I've ever seen. I would have lost two matches if I didn't get the sub because the ref decided that he wasn't counting the sweep points.
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
Looks like a sock lock, but with the gi.
BNPurple beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
I say keep it. I'm actually personally for legalizing heel hooks for gi also. The most dangerous technique in BJJ that has the highest level of serious injury is actually guard jumping, and we keep that legal.
6 months ago I would have disagreed with you. I have recently changed my tune on this. I started training at a gym where people heel hook while in the gi and all of the "arguments" for not doing it that I have heard from IBJJF-types just aren't valid. To be honest, training with heel hooks in the gi has made me realize that the oft-criticized Gordon Ryan's point about "the gi will be dead in 10 years" has me thinking he is more likely to be correct than incorrect.
CBBrown beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
6 months ago I would have disagreed with you. I have recently changed my tune on this. I started training at a gym where people heel hook while in the gi and all of the 'arguments' for not doing it that I have heard from IBJJF-types just aren't valid. To be honest, training with heel hooks in the gi has made me realize that the oft-criticized Gordon Ryan's point about 'the gi will be dead in 10 years' has me thinking he is more likely to be correct than incorrect.
I personally think a lot on the heel hook injuries come from people not training them. So many think your knee will explode if you get caught in one they start spassing out like a first day white belt and wind up tearing their own knees up.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
6 months ago I would have disagreed with you. I have recently changed my tune on this. I started training at a gym where people heel hook while in the gi and all of the 'arguments' for not doing it that I have heard from IBJJF-types just aren't valid. To be honest, training with heel hooks in the gi has made me realize that the oft-criticized Gordon Ryan's point about 'the gi will be dead in 10 years' has me thinking he is more likely to be correct than incorrect.
Gi will be dead if heel hooks in gi.
The question with legality of heel hooks at black belt level is/was never "safety". It's a frickin' combat sport. It's deliberately steering the meta by the powers-that-be. Much like banning leg grabs in judo.
In mid-90s it became evident that leglocks especially in gi would be so OP against the meta at that time so they banned them. Gi-BJJ would become totally leglock centric as the escapes with gi are even harder than no gi.
The question with legality of heel hooks at black belt level is/was never "safety". It's a frickin' combat sport. It's deliberately steering the meta by the powers-that-be. Much like banning leg grabs in judo.
In mid-90s it became evident that leglocks especially in gi would be so OP against the meta at that time so they banned them. Gi-BJJ would become totally leglock centric as the escapes with gi are even harder than no gi.
JJBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
It's fine for Gi places not to want to do leg locks (Twisting knee locks) as much as nogi. They are different sports at this point anyways.
A lot of older guys and guys that don't care about competition do Gi anyways and are not wanting to be concerned about trusting everyone with their knees.
I think it's best just allow nogi to be the sport with more risks and Gi to be the slightly safer more chill in general. Several people train only Gi because they don't want to worry about the quicker movements and higher risk of injuries from nogi and there is nothing wrong with that. If certain academies want to train Gi like they do nogi that's fine and no one should care and the same should be said for those that don't.
Just let people do whatever they want. No reason to have gi and nogi rules be the same. It's good that there are slight variations in rules so people can choose what they prefer. You don't need the rules to be all the same for everything just to tailor to your own personal desires.
A lot of older guys and guys that don't care about competition do Gi anyways and are not wanting to be concerned about trusting everyone with their knees.
I think it's best just allow nogi to be the sport with more risks and Gi to be the slightly safer more chill in general. Several people train only Gi because they don't want to worry about the quicker movements and higher risk of injuries from nogi and there is nothing wrong with that. If certain academies want to train Gi like they do nogi that's fine and no one should care and the same should be said for those that don't.
Just let people do whatever they want. No reason to have gi and nogi rules be the same. It's good that there are slight variations in rules so people can choose what they prefer. You don't need the rules to be all the same for everything just to tailor to your own personal desires.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
As someone who did Jiu Jitsu for 20+ years and have had all the knee injuries and surgeries in the book, I am personally happy if there remains a place for me to compete where heel hooks are not allowed. I can't roll with them anymore and I can't compete with them anymore (if I wanna keep training for another two decades or more, at least).
But that's just me :)
But that's just me :)
JJBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
I also find it rather not fun or interesting just diving for leg locks all the time. Yes you should know how to defend them and interact with them but is it fun? It's not that fun in the Gi anyways. I enjoy it a little bit more in nogi as it fits kind of the game and style of nogi much more. Gi I just want to take my time and not be in a rush to spam mortal kombat finishing moves.
Straight ankle locks, calf slicers etc at least feel more strategic in the GI and most of the time if I go for a leg lock in the Gi I am just messing around and not being serious and feel like they have a proper place. People who go for heel hooks slow or not take it more seriously lol Heel hooks are often just spammed by smaller guys who want to take the easy way out. Just like the big guys using "strength" excuse all the time the younger (under 40) little guys often just want to heel hook as they feel it's their best chance against bigger guys.
Sometimes smaller guys will ask if leg locks are ok or whatever when rolling in the Gi and my response is always yes. But in my mind I am thinking I am just going to smash you now instead of being super gentle (if they are a colored belt) until I get to know them better.
Straight ankle locks, calf slicers etc at least feel more strategic in the GI and most of the time if I go for a leg lock in the Gi I am just messing around and not being serious and feel like they have a proper place. People who go for heel hooks slow or not take it more seriously lol Heel hooks are often just spammed by smaller guys who want to take the easy way out. Just like the big guys using "strength" excuse all the time the younger (under 40) little guys often just want to heel hook as they feel it's their best chance against bigger guys.
Sometimes smaller guys will ask if leg locks are ok or whatever when rolling in the Gi and my response is always yes. But in my mind I am thinking I am just going to smash you now instead of being super gentle (if they are a colored belt) until I get to know them better.
Edited 4 year(s) ago
BNPurple beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
In mid-90s it became evident that leglocks especially in gi would be so OP against the meta at that time so they banned them. Gi-BJJ would become totally leglock centric as the escapes with gi are even harder than no gi.
I tried to find more information on the evolution of the IBJJF rule set over the years in terms of when certain things were banned/changed and I came up empty / got yelled at on Reddit ("who cares/focus on the current rules/why"?), etc. So much for curiosity!
I have noticed training heel hooks in the gi the ability to hand fight and defend is also improved by the fabric handles... BUT I also concede the point that people aren't ripping stuff in training like they might with stuff in competition.
One thing that also comes to mind is the mention of Estima locks & toe holds-- I know they are less common than heel hooks at the high level but some people I know can apply them with absolutely devastating mechanics. I almost think there might be an opening there for leg locking from top position to become more a strategic element.
I have noticed training heel hooks in the gi the ability to hand fight and defend is also improved by the fabric handles... BUT I also concede the point that people aren't ripping stuff in training like they might with stuff in competition.
One thing that also comes to mind is the mention of Estima locks & toe holds-- I know they are less common than heel hooks at the high level but some people I know can apply them with absolutely devastating mechanics. I almost think there might be an opening there for leg locking from top position to become more a strategic element.
Edited 4 year(s) ago
JJBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
One thing that also comes to mind is the mention of Estima locks & toe holds-- I know they are less common than heel hooks at the high level but some people I know can apply them with absolutely devastating mechanics. I almost think there might be an opening there for leg locking from top position to become more a strategic element.
One thing I have learned in competition is you can never be lazy with your foot positioning. Especially the top foot if your playing some sort of knee shield.
Higher belts would always try to estima lock me or a variation of it if they couldn't pass my guard within a minute or so if I was in a knee shield position. Lower belts would sit back on a straight ankle lock and basically just let me pass their guard from the attempt. The estima is a much less risky attempt at a submission and much harder to escape before you take damage if your allow your foot to get trapped by someone properly applying the technique. Most people trying it at purple belt levels still arn't that great at it but I'd imagine at the black belt levels your window of opportunity to tap or escape is very small.
I stopped doing standard scissor sweeps all together mostly as it is very easy to get leg locked. I still sometimes will do them instinctually if someone just throws their weight on me and puts their weight to much to one side but even then I have to be very careful with the top foot.
Now I mostly will only do a push version of a scissor sweep after creating distance where I am always able to move my foot straight into a side control position with no risk of a leg lock.
Higher belts would always try to estima lock me or a variation of it if they couldn't pass my guard within a minute or so if I was in a knee shield position. Lower belts would sit back on a straight ankle lock and basically just let me pass their guard from the attempt. The estima is a much less risky attempt at a submission and much harder to escape before you take damage if your allow your foot to get trapped by someone properly applying the technique. Most people trying it at purple belt levels still arn't that great at it but I'd imagine at the black belt levels your window of opportunity to tap or escape is very small.
I stopped doing standard scissor sweeps all together mostly as it is very easy to get leg locked. I still sometimes will do them instinctually if someone just throws their weight on me and puts their weight to much to one side but even then I have to be very careful with the top foot.
Now I mostly will only do a push version of a scissor sweep after creating distance where I am always able to move my foot straight into a side control position with no risk of a leg lock.
Edited 4 year(s) ago
CDBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
The Aoki lock applied by Victor should be legal. There was no reaping on the knees, primary target was the ankle. If people say it should illegal then all types of ankle locks should be illegal as well. If IBJJF ban Aoki lock, opponent can take advantage by pulling his leg a little if he get caught in straight ankle lock to make it seem it is aoki lock done on him and he can win by DQ.
JJBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
The Aoki lock applied by Victor should be legal. There was no reaping on the knees, primary target was the ankle. If people say it should illegal then all types of ankle locks should be illegal as well. If IBJJF ban Aoki lock, opponent can take advantage by pulling his leg a little if he get caught in straight ankle lock to make it seem it is aoki lock done on him and he can win by DQ.
You can also turn a North South Choke into an Executioner if you want. "Primary target was the neck"
Just ideas for those who want to play Russian Ref Roulette.
Just ideas for those who want to play Russian Ref Roulette.
Edited 4 year(s) ago
CDBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
You can also turn a North South Choke into an Executioner if you want. 'Primary target was the neck' Just ideas for those who want to play Russian Ref Roulette.
Not sure what are you trying to point out bud.
North South choke and Executioner are completely distant technique as Executioner is a neck crank and spine submission, and it is not allowed in IBJJF.
Straight Ankle lock and Aoki lock both targets the ligament of the ankle. If you are trying to say there is "heel hook" torque in Aoki lock, Belly down ankle lock also has the torquing action, and yet it is allowed in IBJJF at white belt.
https://youtu.be/DS-BU7ml-QA
So no, it is not a "russian roulette refereeing". :)
North South choke and Executioner are completely distant technique as Executioner is a neck crank and spine submission, and it is not allowed in IBJJF.
Straight Ankle lock and Aoki lock both targets the ligament of the ankle. If you are trying to say there is "heel hook" torque in Aoki lock, Belly down ankle lock also has the torquing action, and yet it is allowed in IBJJF at white belt.
https://youtu.be/DS-BU7ml-QA
So no, it is not a "russian roulette refereeing". :)
Edited 4 year(s) ago
JJBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
Not sure what are you trying to point out bud. North South choke and Executioner are completely distant technique as Executioner is a neck crank and spine submission, and it is not allowed in IBJJF. Straight Ankle lock and Aoki lock both targets the ligament of the ankle. If you are trying to say there is 'heel hook' torque in Aoki lock, Belly down ankle lock also has the torquing action, and yet it is allowed in IBJJF at white belt. https://youtu.be/DS-BU7ml-QA So no, it is not a 'russian roulette refereeing'. :)
Find the ref with a beard. They treat every match like it's rocky 4 or Herb Dean for example. They going to let you do basically whatever you want.
The clean shaven ones are the ones where you don't want to push your luck lol
The clean shaven ones are the ones where you don't want to push your luck lol
JPBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I actually just had a discussion about this with an IBJJF ref this past weekend. Although the actually lock itself is not in the rule book, he said, what makes it illegal is that it puts pressure on the foot/leg like a reverse toe hold. Reference the technical fouls chart on IBJJF page 29. Number 20 on the chart. It's illegal at all levels in the gi. One of my black belts got DQ'd this past weekend for the Aoki lock. Despite the fact the IBJJF allowed it when Victor Hugo won. I tried to argue the fact. But they weren't having it. I feel it should be legal!
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I think Aoki lock is going through the same trajectory as Estima lock did... A BB starts doing it, people start emulating it, it reaches lower belt levels and then starts to become "illegal" while still some ppl are allowed at higher belt and then at certain point there is an official statement.
