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Disputing rank on incomplete profiles

4 year(s) ago • 2615 views • 45 replies

Bjjproblems
Bjjproblems
Black beltVerified24 forum posts2220/1000
4 year(s) ago
It seems to me that we should treat disputes the same way we treat verifications - do it only for profiles you KNOW are valid/not valid. If someone just hasn't completed their profile and doesn't have enough votes to verify their rank, just leave them be, no need to do anything - they're not verified anyway.

Disputes should be for people who you're sure are misrepresenting themselves - not for someone who just hasn't uploaded a pic with their professor or rank certificate yet. People won't vote to verify without those and that's enough.

Just my two cents. I've seen several profiles with disputes that seem to be busy-body, unneeded/unnecessary disputes.
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4321 forum posts39320/1000
4 year(s) ago
The beautiful thing about this system is that the community decides collectively what the criteria for verification/disputing is. And even what it is for; voting could be for legitimacy of rank, for the correctness of information or even for a certain level of effort put into a profile. It's completely up to each and every one of us and the criteria for verification ultimately ends up being the average of what all users decide on individually. By design, everyone here holds the exact same amount of power in this community based decision making process.

Pretty cool, if I should say so myself :D
Edited 4 year(s) ago
Bjjproblems
BjjproblemsOP
Black beltVerified24 forum posts2220/1000
4 year(s) ago
The beautiful thing about this system is that the community decides collectively what the criteria for verification/disputing is. And even what it is for; voting could be for legitimacy of rank, for the correctness of information or even for a certain level of effort put into a profile. It's completely up to each and every one of us and the criteria for verification ultimately ends up being the average of what all users decide on individually. By design, everyone here holds the exact same amount of power in this community based decision making process. Pretty cool, if I should say so myself :D
This is my vote, as part of the community, that we should only dispute ranks for good reason. Not because someone lost interest in filling out their profile or they're not as computer savvy as others. The lack of info will prevent verification and "disputes" - as implied by the name - should be reserved for disputing the veracity of a claim.
R. David Gonzalez
R. David Gonzalez
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4764 forum posts34325/1000
4 year(s) ago
Disputing is one of the best ways to draw attention to something. Also, what Christian said.
I agree.. Most disputes are corrective in nature anyway, which is a good thing.



Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4321 forum posts39320/1000
4 year(s) ago
This is my vote, as part of the community, that we should only dispute ranks for good reason. Not because someone lost interest in filling out their profile or they're not as computer savvy as others. The lack of info will prevent verification and 'disputes' - as implied by the name - should be reserved for disputing the veracity of a claim.
Yep! And one of the ways of promoting/debating one’s opinion of voting criteria is here in the forum; thank you for exercising your right to vote! :D

I do personally agree with Jorgen that a dispute is something that really quickly gets people out of their chairs to fix things. I’ll do it if there is something obviously incorrect, for instance wrong dates for promotions or generally wrong belt rank. But each to their own :)
Steven Zoll
Steven Zoll
Black belt 1st degreeVerified648 forum posts10510/1000
4 year(s) ago
Disputing is one of the best ways to draw attention to something. Also, what Christian said.
I agree. Another great things about disputes is they go away once the individual in question updates their profile.
Vovis
Vovis
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified976 forum posts9215/1000
4 year(s) ago
The best way to stop the disputes, is completely fill out your profile. If some info is missing explain why. Otherwise disputes will continue.
Bjjproblems
BjjproblemsOP
Black beltVerified24 forum posts2220/1000
4 year(s) ago
The best way to stop the disputes, is completely fill out your profile. If some info is missing explain why. Otherwise disputes will continue.
I'm not concerned about my profile
Vovis
Vovis
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified976 forum posts9215/1000
4 year(s) ago
I'm not concerned about my profile
Was talking about incomplete profiles, if your profile is nothing to worry about, then you have nothing to worry about. Others that are incomplete or unfinished do. Jiu-jitsu is all about paying attention to the details to make techniques work, then the same should be applied to filling out a profile on a jiu-jitsu website. In MY opinion it says a lot about the individual. And that's just my personal opinion.
Edited 4 year(s) ago
Bobby McMasters
Bobby McMasters
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1271 forum posts12800/1000
4 year(s) ago
If my students get promoted to the next belt rank and neglect to update their rank on beltchecker within 48 hours, I downvote their profile and call them sandbaggers. This is pretty much the only time I've ever downvoted anybody. We don't f*** around here at Open Source Bjj.
Vovis
Vovis
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified976 forum posts9215/1000
4 year(s) ago
If my students get promoted to the next belt rank and neglect to update their rank on beltchecker within 48 hours, I downvote their profile and call them sandbaggers. This is pretty much the only time I've ever downvoted anybody. We don't f*** around here at Open Source Bjj.
That's awesome
Vovis
Vovis
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified976 forum posts9215/1000
4 year(s) ago
Yep! And one of the ways of promoting/debating one’s opinion of voting criteria is here in the forum; thank you for exercising your right to vote! :D I do personally agree with Jorgen that a dispute is something that really quickly gets people out of their chairs to fix things. I’ll do it if there is something obviously incorrect, for instance wrong dates for promotions or generally wrong belt rank. But each to their own :)
Exactly, as I have seen it personally with one of my students. As he didn't have his Bluebelt for 71 years. When I saw I sent message to Christian that I would have it corrected.
Johan
Johan
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified1401 forum posts11370/1000
3 year(s) ago
If someone just hasn't completed their profile and doesn't have enough votes to verify their rank, just leave them be, no need to do anything - they're not verified anyway.
Disputes also signal to others that they can put their verifying time to better use elsewhere, helping those who HAVE put in the effort of making their profiles verifiable, with good evidence.

Besides (as previously stated) making people get out of their chairs to fix what's wrong.

I've had persons asking me why I couldn't have just sent them a message or written on their wall. Persons who already had people writing just that on their walls many months ago. Who then procede by finally putting in the effort needed and, surprise, then gaining verifications from others too. So although not everyone initially appreciate it, many realise later that you have actually helped them by initially disputing.
Marc Partridge
Marc Partridge
Black belt 1st degreeVerified88 forum posts5945/1000
3 year(s) ago
This is one of those divisive topics which always has a wide variety of response.
I raised the same topic not long ago on the forum.
I understand both sides of the debate but personally would only downvote on a serious discrepancy.
I would offer advice like what was offered to me by Johan to improve/correct elements of my profile.
I do however see how it is used with advice given on what to correct which whilst I wouldn’t do myself, I understand.
Everyone has a different approach and criteria to voting which is a good thing.
I’m yet too see any signs of malicious downvoting on Beltchecker which is also a good thing.
I guess the top tip to learn is make sure you fill in and populate your profile with as much info as possible, therefore leaving no questions to be asked..
Shane Mansfield
Shane Mansfield
Black beltVerified8 forum posts1415/1000
3 year(s) ago
This is one of those divisive topics which always has a wide variety of response. I raised the same topic not long ago on the forum. I understand both sides of the debate but personally would only downvote on a serious discrepancy. I would offer advice like what was offered to me by Johan to improve/correct elements of my profile. I do however see how it is used with advice given on what to correct which whilst I wouldn’t do myself, I understand. Everyone has a different approach and criteria to voting which is a good thing. I’m yet too see any signs of malicious downvoting on Beltchecker which is also a good thing. I guess the top tip to learn is make sure you fill in and populate your profile with as much info as possible, therefore leaving no questions to be asked..
You helped clean up my profile in this way so thanks.

Ultimately it was on me to be right first time. That, I guess, needs balancing against technical errors v genuine false information.
Michael MacGregor
Michael Macgregor
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified1 forum posts3385/1000
3 year(s) ago
Disputing a rank because of an incomplete profile only takes away from the validity of a real dispute. It’s called a “dispute.” You’re disputing their claim of rank, not their ability to finish filling out a form.
Johan
Johan
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified1401 forum posts11370/1000
3 year(s) ago
Disputing a rank because of an incomplete profile only takes away from the validity of a real dispute. It’s called a “dispute.” You’re disputing their claim of rank, not their ability to finish filling out a form.
It's not called a "rank dispute", so it can just as well be a dispute on the accuracy or completeness of the information and evidence. Which should really be updated anyway, thus quickly resetting all disputes.

As you hopefully also write WHY you dispute something, it is very transparent and easy to see for other users and I don't agree that it takes away from the validity of a real dispute. The "real disputes" (as in fake belts?) are fortunately very rare, but I haven't seen any evidence that they are perceived as watered down by anyone. On the contrary, I think most (all?) of those affected by "real" disputes have left Beltchecker.

Also, let's not forget that having dual systems, with a separate marker that you can place for incomplete information or evidence, would make the site more technically complicated and increase load on the webmasters. So I see no problem with disputes being used for both.
Brian Barlow
Brian Barlow
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified332 forum posts3055/1000
3 year(s) ago
Unless it’s a person giving themselves rank or flat out fabricating rank, how can anyone be disputed? I know some who I would never promote that have been promoted but I wouldn’t dispute it.
Jorgen Matsi
Jorgen Matsi
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified1772 forum posts17315/1000
3 year(s) ago
Unless it’s a person giving themselves rank or flat out fabricating rank, how can anyone be disputed? I know some who I would never promote that have been promoted but I wouldn’t dispute it.
What about when your wives give you the rank though?

(On a more serious note: I will and have disputed promotion where it might seem to me that the person has "gamed" themselves into getting even a "legit" promotion but is more (!) than substandard of a grappler (or in alternative case of higher ranks - a coach of grapplers). However, since I don't want to spend too much time and energy in virtual space, I might just shrug and let it go... to a degree, dilution belt standards is somewhat inevitable especially as BJJ does not have a "written requirement" program and if there were, that would suck even more.
Brian Barlow
Brian Barlow
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified332 forum posts3055/1000
3 year(s) ago
Jorgen, I agree. The Italian saga was a shit show, I’m sure their could be more of those situations.
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4321 forum posts39320/1000
3 year(s) ago
Like it or not, but all this current aggressive downvoting from Johan etc. is resulting in some serious data verification of the profiles here on the site, which is ultimately what makes Beltchecker a legitimate and trustworthy place to look up credentials for our sport.

Thank you for your service :D
Brian Barlow
Brian Barlow
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified332 forum posts3055/1000
3 year(s) ago
Only black belts should vote. They're the only ones that matter...
Ha! YES! Some lower belts (brown) vote for every Tom, Dick, and Harry. I guess it's a way to curry favor. Not Anthony. lol
Edited 3 year(s) ago
Anthony Restuccia
Anthony Restuccia
Black beltVerified650 forum posts12595/1000
3 year(s) ago
Ha! YES! Some lower belts (brown) vote for every Tom, Dick, and Harry. I guess it's a way to curry favor. Not Anthony. lol
100% the only reason I do it. :)
Jon
Jon
Purple beltVerified89 forum posts1345/400
3 year(s) ago
Maybe if someone doesn't fill out their profile completely their account should be erased or hidden after a certain time. I've seen some profiles that don't even have a verified name sitting on this site for more than a year.
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4321 forum posts39320/1000
3 year(s) ago
Maybe if someone doesn't fill out their profile completely their account should be erased or hidden after a certain time. I've seen some profiles that don't even have a verified name sitting on this site for more than a year.
People should be free to have a profile that is not filled out or even anonymous. There are still lots of great features to use here that are completely separate from the verification aspect.

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