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BELTCHECKER BLACK BELT DEGREE CERTIFICATION

6 year(s) ago • 1394 views • 45 replies

Jesse Grinstead
Jesse Grinstead
Purple beltVerified79 forum posts575/400
6 year(s) ago
Description of the Beltchecker Black Belt Degree Certification:
https://beltchecker.com/faq.php#10

IBJJF Graduation Guidelines:
https://ibjjf.com/wp-cont[...]EN_vs2.pdf

After discussing the topic of black belt degree promotions with Christian, I have come to see his position in a new light. In a world where the IBJJF has put in place a mandate stating that its member black belts must adhere to their degree system, a time-served model that takes promotion discretion away from senior professors, it stands to reason that it's perfectly logical for an alternative certification route to follow a similar time-served model. While I still find the concept of automatic promotions and independent declarations of rank a bit strange, the point remains that the IBJJF is doing this very thing, and if they're doing it, why can't others?

From the IBJJF Graduation Guidelines:
"Note: Until the brown belt, the adoption of the degree system is up to each professor. However, when a practitioner receives
their black belt it is mandatory to adopt the degree system defined by IBJJF."

However, despite the fact that Beltchecker is following the same time prescriptions for black belt degree promotions as the IBJJF model, it seems like the creation of the Beltchecker black belt degree system should have been more of a community effort. Short of going back to the drawing board, I think it would be good for the Beltchecker community to at least air their opinion of this certification program and its guidelines, and to determine if the program has the community's blessing.

What say you?
Tatu Piispanen
Tatu Piispanen
Black beltVerified1355 forum posts10295/1000
6 year(s) ago
You are clearly not content with the idea that the black belt degrees represent (active) years at rank, which is the only thing they currently do. (Unlike the stripes on color belts which typically indicate some kind of other progression in the art as well.)

What do you personally think they should they awarded for, if not "time served"?

Actually probably most people will have poorer rolling performance as a, say, banged-up 4th degree black belt vs. when they were a freshly-minted BB almost 20 years earlier. Also they might have less relevant technical knowledge too, as they are likely (not always) more distanced from high level competition etc. and the oldfartiness starts to take over. If the BB promotion has been legit, what kind of re-validation is needed for the degrees anyway?
Edited 6 year(s) ago
Jesse Grinstead
Jesse GrinsteadOP
Purple beltVerified79 forum posts575/400
6 year(s) ago
I’m actually growing more comfortable with the time served model. However, I think it’s still controversial for anyone to independently upgrade their own rank status. That said, I think it would be good to have the weight of the community behind this idea so as to ensure that Beltchecker’s very own black belt degree certification program is actually supported by the Beltchecker community, particularly its black belt population.

Also, if and when we establish that it has community support, I think we can then discuss enhancing the program, so that it’s something slightly more relevant than a box that is checked in the promotion history section of someone’s profile.
Tatu Piispanen
Tatu Piispanen
Black beltVerified1355 forum posts10295/1000
6 year(s) ago
Right, got your point better now. :)

As it currently stands, every BB degree reported here predates the site (even the "self-promoted" by time served ones), so this has been just a platform to seek the site's community's verification for existing ranks. So nobody has been promoted by "Beltchecker's BB degree certification program" so far.

When in the future, the time requirement is met by somebody who is a verified black belt on the site, and they wants to get their BB degree via a Beltchecker validation process rather than from a senior belt or the IBJJF, then this is certainly a relevant discussion. (Or, before that too, as I think it is likely to happen.)
Edited 6 year(s) ago
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4323 forum posts39315/1000
6 year(s) ago
Man Jesse, you're putting so much thought into this, it's just degrees based on time and obviously pretty much no one seems to care about questioning that ;)

While we are trying to do some new things with this project and think a bit differently than common perception, we are not here to change the common requirements for black belt degrees. Those will stay the same as agreed upon by the global Jiu Jitsu community, which are the ones that IBJJF has defined.

If you think it is so controversial to take charge of your own time-based promotion, you need to take that up with IBJJF. Once global adoption has succeeded, we can talk about adjusting accordingly here.

All the best :)
Edited 6 year(s) ago
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4323 forum posts39315/1000
6 year(s) ago
(I apologize if that reply could be read a bit harsh, that was not the intention - I just feel like we've been through this debate a lot over the last week and don't want to repeat myself :) :) :))
Jesse Grinstead
Jesse GrinsteadOP
Purple beltVerified79 forum posts575/400
6 year(s) ago
I'm pretty much on board with your view, Christian. Furthermore, I wouldn't even say that I'm proposing that you change any of the basic guidelines, but I think it would be great if we received a consensus approval from (or at least gauged the temperature of) the Beltchecker community and continue to educate people that the time served model is a standard that was introduced by the IBJJF. I have been shocked by the number of people I have spoken to in recent days who weren't aware of the fact that this is the mandated graduation methodology now in place for IBJJF black belts. It's important for people to know that because many individuals in the jiu-jitsu community believe that IBJJF credentials are the standard for respectability, yet they are unaware of the specific guidelines related to their black belt degree system. I educated several people on the topic this week and they had no idea that the IBJJF has effectively taken the reins from professors when it comes to black belt striping/promotion decisions.

Another point that you made that I think is extremely important and not so well known is that an IBJJF membership card is entirely different than IBJJF belt certification. This means that a person could essentially have a room in their home entirely dedicated to all of the medals they've won in the black belt division at IBJJF events while not actually having a black belt that is certified by the IBJJF. That's a shocker for many as well.

Anyway...

As you know, I have a professor who is neither interested in IBJJF membership nor affiliation who could benefit from the time served approach that the Beltchecker graduation system allows, but I am hesitant to bring this opportunity to his attention until I see support for the system and its guidelines within this very community.
Tatu Piispanen
Tatu Piispanen
Black beltVerified1355 forum posts10295/1000
6 year(s) ago
This means that a person could essentially have a room in their home entirely dedicated to all of the medals they've won in the black belt division at IBJJF events while not actually having a black belt that is certified by the IBJJF. That's a shocker for many as well.
For a person to get a black belt membership licence in the IBJJF, it has to be approved by a 2nd Degree BB who has had his rank certified by the Federation. So basically each academy(/affiliation) needs to have one certified professor to approve the BB competitors’ licences. I don’t know how this is shocking; would be stupid to make all the competitors pay the $400 certification fee even if they don’t care for the Federation’s certification.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4323 forum posts39315/1000
6 year(s) ago
That's a shocker for many as well.
Only if they never cared to actually read the guidelines they’re shocked to not know about haha :D
Jesse Grinstead
Jesse GrinsteadOP
Purple beltVerified79 forum posts575/400
6 year(s) ago
For a person to get a black belt membership licence in the IBJJF, it has to be approved by a 2nd Degree BB who has had his rank certified by the Federation. So basically each academy(/affiliation) needs to have one certified professor to approve the BB competitors’ licences. I don’t know how this is shocking; would be stupid to make all the competitors pay the $400 certification fee even if they don’t care for the Federation’s certification.
Enter BJJ Globetrotters. Easy peasy.
Tatu Piispanen
Tatu Piispanen
Black beltVerified1355 forum posts10295/1000
6 year(s) ago
Enter BJJ Globetrotters. Easy peasy.
Indeed. :)
They’ve thankfully been a saviour to many smaller schools & rogues who desire to compete.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4323 forum posts39315/1000
6 year(s) ago
As you know, I have a professor who is neither interested in IBJJF membership nor affiliation who could benefit from the time served approach that the Beltchecker graduation system allows, but I am hesitant to bring this opportunity to his attention until I see support for the system and its guidelines within this very community.
So wait a year or so and see how it’s played out here :)
Stuart Mitchell
Stuart Mitchell
Black belt 4th degreeVerified19 forum posts4090/1000
6 year(s) ago
Tbh compared with judo I like the time served model of BJJ. It makes for alot less bun fights about who deserves what stripes on their black belt.

I think this encourages more people to focus on growing the sport not on what they wear on their waist
Christopher Bradford
Christopher Bradford
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified47 forum posts1725/1000
6 year(s) ago
This is such an interesting topic; I'm one of those folks who finds the IBJJF objectionable. Coming from a Judo background, I dislike that it's a private corporation setting 'standards' for us (although also recognize the many good things, including high-quality tournaments, that they provide). I like the idea of setting general, community-recognized standards that won't be affected by a given company's profit-motive.
Jorgen Matsi
Jorgen Matsi
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified1772 forum posts17315/1000
6 year(s) ago
I like the time served but it should be active time served... And that kinda requires either consciousness or someone to watch over it...
Erik Luker
Erik Luker
Black beltVerified19 forum posts1675/1000
6 year(s) ago
Who died an made the IBJJF in charge of our martial art? Jiu jitsu has to me, to a large degree (pun intended), been about not obeying some rigid system of top down control. Locally centered instructor based ideas and a community of self regulation. The IBJJF is a money making control seeking group that's teamed up with some large and powerful people in the sport to take control and turn that control in $$$. Jiu Jitsu is about so much more than degrees and time lines and paying money to some big company.
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4323 forum posts39315/1000
6 year(s) ago
Who died an made the IBJJF in charge of our martial art? Jiu jitsu has to me, to a large degree (pun intended), been about not obeying some rigid system of top down control. Locally centered instructor based ideas and a community of self regulation. The IBJJF is a money making control seeking group that's teamed up with some large and powerful people in the sport to take control and turn that control in $$$. Jiu Jitsu is about so much more than degrees and time lines and paying money to some big company.
Well, it only has the amount of power that people are giving it. Like if we all stopped believing in money tomorrow, it would be worth nothing.
Tatu Piispanen
Tatu Piispanen
Black beltVerified1355 forum posts10295/1000
6 year(s) ago
I’m interested: do the ”time served” requirements for black belt degrees (the years needed for each one) come from IBJJF guidelines or do they have a longer history?

Were there different models about how to attain them earlier or is this whole grau business dreamed up by the Federation..?
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4323 forum posts39315/1000
6 year(s) ago
I’m interested: do the ”time served” requirements for black belt degrees (the years needed for each one) come from IBJJF guidelines or do they have a longer history? Were there different models about how to attain them earlier or is this whole grau business dreamed up by the Federation..?
Only thing I remember was that before IBJJF started to become de facto standard, it was two years per degree. But I'm sure some of the veterans in here know more about this.
Erik Luker
Erik Luker
Black beltVerified19 forum posts1675/1000
6 year(s) ago
Well, it only has the amount of power that people are giving it. Like if we all stopped believing in money tomorrow, it would be worth nothing.
I respect ADCC champ as the real no gi champ. Obviously the gi is a different story. But how about this. Brazil obviously has a ton, probably the lion's share, of talented black belts in the world. Yet the "world championships" are held in California every year. How is that fair? Maybe everyone can't just up and go to California. And not just the obvious reason like finances. But not everyone can even get a VISA to come into the country. So that right there damages the IBJJF world championship's validity.
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4323 forum posts39315/1000
6 year(s) ago
I respect ADCC champ as the real no gi champ. Obviously the gi is a different story. But how about this. Brazil obviously has a ton, probably the lion's share, of talented black belts in the world. Yet the 'world championships' are held in California every year. How is that fair? Maybe everyone can't just up and go to California. And not just the obvious reason like finances. But not everyone can even get a VISA to come into the country. So that right there damages the IBJJF world championship's validity.
IBJJF is a private company and doesn’t really have any responsibilities to hold the worlds anywhere else than they feel like. It’s entirely up to the community to decide what is the real world championships.
Erik Luker
Erik Luker
Black beltVerified19 forum posts1675/1000
6 year(s) ago
IBJJF is a private company and doesn’t really have any responsibilities to hold the worlds anywhere else than they feel like. It’s entirely up to the community to decide what is the real world championships.
For sure. Which is why I'm here! Join me everyone. Someone start a real tournament that doesn't cost everyone tons of money and is moved around. My kids just got their USA wrestling cards for the year and that was like $35. We can enter tournaments for free of for $25 dollars. And they're efficient. BJJ can do the same. Everyone, join me in my fight against "The Man". Now, excuse me while I go win NAGA worlds lol.
Jorgen Matsi
Jorgen Matsi
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified1772 forum posts17315/1000
6 year(s) ago
2 years per degree, awarded by one’s teacher, correct? One wasn’t awarding them on their own, were they?
It was 2 years even with IBJJF until about 5-6 years ago?
William Murphy
William Murphy
Black belt 5th degreeVerified2143 forum posts25730/1000
6 year(s) ago
It was 2 years even with IBJJF until about 5-6 years ago?
No, with the IBJJF it has been 3 years for the first 3 degrees,

and then 5 years to go from 3rd Degree to 4th Degree,

etc, etc. for a lot longer than just the past 5 or 6 years.

Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4323 forum posts39315/1000
6 year(s) ago
I said 2 years by mistake a few comments ago. My main question was if people wait to get awarded the degree stripes or if they put them on themselves (which would surprise me). I know it must vary a bit, depending on the situation.
IBJJF are totally fine with promoting yourself without an instructor, as long as you pay them.
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4323 forum posts39315/1000
6 year(s) ago
I figured as much. I was speaking in terms of etiquette and respect between a black belt and his/her instructor (if they have one).
Totally agree, that would be very weird to do if you have an instructor :)
Daniël Bertina
Daniël Bertina
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified880 forum posts15560/1000
6 year(s) ago
It's all symbolism and invented tradition.

We wear an offshoot of a japanese garment.
That garment is being tied shut by a highly impractical belt, the color(s) of which were decided upon by Kano, after witnessing a children's swimming class.

Yet it's samurai this and bushido that.

A degree is a piece of athletic tape.

Still. The 'time served'-only view in regards to belt degree promotion is poor, in my opinion.

In this meaningless universe, I appreciate my teachers putting that piece of tape on my belt, sayin: Here lad, I like how you do your thing and still support you.

Whatever that means (nothing, in the great scale of things, but still...)

That's all.
William Murphy
William Murphy
Black belt 5th degreeVerified2143 forum posts25730/1000
6 year(s) ago
It's all symbolism and invented tradition. We wear an offshoot of a japanese garment. That garment is being tied shut by a highly impractical belt, the color(s) of which were decided upon by Kano, after witnessing a children's swimming class. Yet it's samurai this and bushido that. A degree is a piece of athletic tape. Still. The 'time served'-only view in regards to belt degree promotion is poor, in my opinion. In this meaningless universe, I appreciate my teachers putting that piece of tape on my belt, sayin: Here lad, I like how you do your thing and still support you. Whatever that means (nothing, in the great scale of things, but still...) That's all.
Wear the pajamas you like.

Even the belt.

At the end of the day,

you can teach or not,

roll or not,

and Samurai came from a backwards, isolated little island,

and all the literature about them was written after they were no longer a fighting class.

Much like Arthurian romance tales,

except the writers were bureaucrats who never fought,

and the fighting class no longer existed when the fables were written.
Jorgen Matsi
Jorgen Matsi
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified1772 forum posts17315/1000
6 year(s) ago
in my opinion. In this meaningless universe, I appreciate my teachers putting that piece of tape on my belt, sayin: Here lad, I like how you do your thing and still support you. Whatever that means (nothing, in the great scale of things, but still...) That's all.
Comes with the perk of having a stable teacher who actually thinks about you now and then ;)
Jesse Grinstead
Jesse GrinsteadOP
Purple beltVerified79 forum posts575/400
6 year(s) ago
I couldn't be happier with how this conversation is going. Thanks for participating, everyone. Really interesting comments!

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