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Brain Works: Scientific approach to learning
3 year(s) ago • 4853 views • 18 replies
AFBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
At an advanced training I attended recently they spoke on the nature of how one learns, and more importantly effectively applies knowledge.
The process seems simple.
Cognitive, associative, and autonomic.
For jiu jitsu they pointed out that’s single techniques are a cognitive approach. Repetition will reinforce it. Like Roy Dean says this can be the letters or words of the art.
The next step, ideally with time permitting would be associative. The Gracie’s call it reflex development drills. 10th planet calls them warm ups. This builds off of peoples naturally ability in pattern recognition. Stringing together what they learn and seeing it’s naturally next step. You could even consider these a kata.
Lastly is autonomic. Automatic recall, or muscle memory. Through rest and myelin sheathing increase connection from brain and spinal cord. The encouragement was to utilize this and the three elements tethered to a auditory, visual, and kinesthetic teaching.
That’s a lot of word vomit, but I find the process of learning to be fascinating. For those who teach how do you like to go about it? And for those who learn (all of us I imagine) what do you feel benefits you most.
I hope you all are doing well wherever you are. Hope to see you on the mats.
The process seems simple.
Cognitive, associative, and autonomic.
For jiu jitsu they pointed out that’s single techniques are a cognitive approach. Repetition will reinforce it. Like Roy Dean says this can be the letters or words of the art.
The next step, ideally with time permitting would be associative. The Gracie’s call it reflex development drills. 10th planet calls them warm ups. This builds off of peoples naturally ability in pattern recognition. Stringing together what they learn and seeing it’s naturally next step. You could even consider these a kata.
Lastly is autonomic. Automatic recall, or muscle memory. Through rest and myelin sheathing increase connection from brain and spinal cord. The encouragement was to utilize this and the three elements tethered to a auditory, visual, and kinesthetic teaching.
That’s a lot of word vomit, but I find the process of learning to be fascinating. For those who teach how do you like to go about it? And for those who learn (all of us I imagine) what do you feel benefits you most.
I hope you all are doing well wherever you are. Hope to see you on the mats.
SBBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I think that kind of sums it up. Of course, very few people teach with that in mind. Many to one or two of the learning techniques at best. Most just drill the move of the day and then free roll for the rest of the class. Why free roll when you will seldom find yourself in the position you just drilled? Set warm ups and specific training are so important to learning outcomes and yet they are largely ignored.
RBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I love learning about how humans learn and how to better teach them. I currently coach at my jiu-jitsu academy and also teach to law enforcement/military for work. "Make it Stick" is a fantastic book the delves into learning principles, FYI.
How I teach varies depending on the audience and purpose. Broadly, I like to address the "Why" behind what I'm teaching so that it becomes adaptable to diverse conditions/situations. There will always be technical instruction, but teaching concepts is what truly provides long-term success and depth of knowledge. I will try to do at least three demos of technique or idea I'm teaching - The first will be a basic approach with limited detail. Subsequent demos will increase in their detail. I find that this accomodates various skill levels. The white and blue belts will tend to get the most from the first demo while senior blues and purple belts will benefit greatly from the additional detail in the second. Brown belts and black belts typically can find some gems in the final demonstration. Then, I'll walk around the class and provides more nuggets to those students who are grasping particular aspects of the technique to nudge them along a little bit further.
Something we like to do a lot at our academy is have a drill period with some resistance directly after teaching a technique or concept, and this is prior to free rolling. There are numerous studies that highlight the need for difficulty to increase retention and understanding, as well as interleaving with seemingly unrelated topics. These drills provide an opportunity to give a stimulus of resistance. Rolling tends to give it more context then.
How I teach varies depending on the audience and purpose. Broadly, I like to address the "Why" behind what I'm teaching so that it becomes adaptable to diverse conditions/situations. There will always be technical instruction, but teaching concepts is what truly provides long-term success and depth of knowledge. I will try to do at least three demos of technique or idea I'm teaching - The first will be a basic approach with limited detail. Subsequent demos will increase in their detail. I find that this accomodates various skill levels. The white and blue belts will tend to get the most from the first demo while senior blues and purple belts will benefit greatly from the additional detail in the second. Brown belts and black belts typically can find some gems in the final demonstration. Then, I'll walk around the class and provides more nuggets to those students who are grasping particular aspects of the technique to nudge them along a little bit further.
Something we like to do a lot at our academy is have a drill period with some resistance directly after teaching a technique or concept, and this is prior to free rolling. There are numerous studies that highlight the need for difficulty to increase retention and understanding, as well as interleaving with seemingly unrelated topics. These drills provide an opportunity to give a stimulus of resistance. Rolling tends to give it more context then.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
In short: no. I do not agree.
You do not learn to play soccer this way.
In games you introduce variability as soon as possible.
You do not learn to play soccer this way.
In games you introduce variability as soon as possible.
AFBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I really like all the feedback. Thank you Sean, Randy and Jorgen.
I like the methods Randy shared, and good point Jorgen. Variability is huge. My students and I still apply your material from Spring Camp 2019.
I like the methods Randy shared, and good point Jorgen. Variability is huge. My students and I still apply your material from Spring Camp 2019.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
There were two excellent episodes on learning in BJJ Mental Models. I can't recall by heart.
Also - short replies are currently not due to me being an @sshole but due me entering digital detox in Zen camp :D
Also - short replies are currently not due to me being an @sshole but due me entering digital detox in Zen camp :D
AFBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Your short reply was perfect. I like short and concise responses. I’m always looking to be a better coach for my students so I welcome all knowledge. It’s how we further the art and increase people. You’ve blessed me brother :)
Also I could do with a digital detox! That’s a wonderful idea :)
Also I could do with a digital detox! That’s a wonderful idea :)
JJBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Everyone learns differently in general.
More importantly what amount of effort and energy are the students putting into the sport? Are they wanting to compete all the time or never? Depending upon the results of a few questions will determine the best method for their training. Not some pre established notion that the instructor thinks they know what's best for everyone.
In general simple concepts are better than multi step techniques.
Understanding how much information the students can understand and make use of as again people have different capacities for learning and might just zone you out.
More importantly what amount of effort and energy are the students putting into the sport? Are they wanting to compete all the time or never? Depending upon the results of a few questions will determine the best method for their training. Not some pre established notion that the instructor thinks they know what's best for everyone.
In general simple concepts are better than multi step techniques.
Understanding how much information the students can understand and make use of as again people have different capacities for learning and might just zone you out.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
PSBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I agree with Jorgen
Besides that:
Muscle Memory - there is no evidence for such a thing
Also you don't want automatism. You want an Athlet who decides, cause this is what they are supposed to do. Automatism are super subsceptible for feints.
And the big question is - what is a naturally next step? That indicates that there is a final truth and that everything else is wrong. Usually there are different ways to a goal and all the evidence we have indicate that it is not requiered to find the best way to solve a problem but a proper way in a short period of time.
So instead of trying to 'automise" a specific answer to a know problem it seems to be better to train someone to creatively find quick proper solutions to a big variety of problems.
Roy Jones used to say that good fighters force their game but Champions adapt and win.
Besides that:
Muscle Memory - there is no evidence for such a thing
Also you don't want automatism. You want an Athlet who decides, cause this is what they are supposed to do. Automatism are super subsceptible for feints.
And the big question is - what is a naturally next step? That indicates that there is a final truth and that everything else is wrong. Usually there are different ways to a goal and all the evidence we have indicate that it is not requiered to find the best way to solve a problem but a proper way in a short period of time.
So instead of trying to 'automise" a specific answer to a know problem it seems to be better to train someone to creatively find quick proper solutions to a big variety of problems.
Roy Jones used to say that good fighters force their game but Champions adapt and win.
JJBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I agree with Jorgen Besides that: Muscle Memory - there is no evidence for such a thing Also you don't want automatism. You want an Athlet who decides, cause this is what they are supposed to do. Automatism are super subsceptible for feints. And the big question is - what is a naturally next step? That indicates that there is a final truth and that everything else is wrong. Usually there are different ways to a goal and all the evidence we have indicate that it is not requiered to find the best way to solve a problem but a proper way in a short period of time. So instead of trying to 'automise' a specific answer to a know problem it seems to be better to train someone to creatively find quick proper solutions to a big variety of problems. Roy Jones used to say that good fighters force their game but Champions adapt and win.
Muscle memory is a real thing when it comes to lifting weights.
I'd assume it's similar to if you take time off jiu-jitsu and start back you will catch back on fairly quick if you had a decent amount of time spent previous to the time away.
I'd assume it's similar to if you take time off jiu-jitsu and start back you will catch back on fairly quick if you had a decent amount of time spent previous to the time away.
RBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Yeah, the muscle memory not being real comment threw me off too. It certainly is a real thing, it's just referred to incorrectly a lot.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Yeah, the muscle memory not being real comment threw me off too. It certainly is a real thing, it's just referred to incorrectly a lot.
What do you mean then by "muscle memory"?
The fact that mitochondria increase helps trained people regain muscle faster is not "memory" I would say.
And actual "memory" is always in CNS, not in muscles.
Precision in terms / speech does matter if we want to talk about and research knowledge.
The fact that mitochondria increase helps trained people regain muscle faster is not "memory" I would say.
And actual "memory" is always in CNS, not in muscles.
Precision in terms / speech does matter if we want to talk about and research knowledge.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
JJBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
No. In general (!) everyone learns the same.
Absolutely not.
You can show some people a technique a couple times and just by watching it they can replicate it in drilling just from visually watching. Same person may have a hard time doing it in sparring for a bit though and have to drill the technique a 100 times.
Another person you might could show them the same technique a thousand times and they wouldn't be able to replicate it properly until they physically do it with there bodies a few times but after just a couple physical reps they might be able to then do it at full speed in sparring with no issue and not need to drill at all.
You can show some people a technique a couple times and just by watching it they can replicate it in drilling just from visually watching. Same person may have a hard time doing it in sparring for a bit though and have to drill the technique a 100 times.
Another person you might could show them the same technique a thousand times and they wouldn't be able to replicate it properly until they physically do it with there bodies a few times but after just a couple physical reps they might be able to then do it at full speed in sparring with no issue and not need to drill at all.
SBBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
What do you mean then by 'muscle memory'? The fact that mitochondria increase helps trained people regain muscle faster is not 'memory' I would say. And actual 'memory' is always in CNS, not in muscles. Precision in terms / speech does matter if we want to talk about and research knowledge.
Muscle memory is a colloquialism for CSN. So you're both right, IMO
SBBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Absolutely not. You can show some people a technique a couple times and just by watching it they can replicate it in drilling just from visually watching. Same person may have a hard time doing it in sparring for a bit though and have to drill the technique a 100 times. Another person you might could show them the same technique a thousand times and they wouldn't be able to replicate it properly until they physically do it with there bodies a few times but after just a couple physical reps they might be able to then do it at full speed in sparring with no issue and not need to drill at all.
In general (!) everyone learns the same.
By "in general" he isn't taking about extremely special cases such as yourself or every college freshman I've ever met. And, honestly, as an outlier you should recognized that a vast majority of the population fits into the description "in general" even if you don't. Your experience is datum not data.
By "in general" he isn't taking about extremely special cases such as yourself or every college freshman I've ever met. And, honestly, as an outlier you should recognized that a vast majority of the population fits into the description "in general" even if you don't. Your experience is datum not data.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
RBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
What do you mean then by 'muscle memory'? The fact that mitochondria increase helps trained people regain muscle faster is not 'memory' I would say. And actual 'memory' is always in CNS, not in muscles. Precision in terms / speech does matter if we want to talk about and research knowledge.
We are on the same page...but if we are going to get into semantics like the use of "memory" in commonly used terms, then we might as well re-do the entire English language. "Muscle memory" isn't literal, as if the muscles actually store memory in the scientific sense. But "muscle memory" is a real thing.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
MPPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
That style of learning of cognitive, associative and autonomic is from a study in yhe 1900s. Then there is many variations on that. Then when you layer on the VARK scale it then changes alot.
Now muscle memory isn't referring to the muscle remembering something. They react to nerve impulses from the brain. So muscle memory in fact is your brain remembering timing the firing of muscles for certain reactions.
As the cognitive stage is where we learn the skill in slow time and it requires alot of intentional focus.
The associative stage is where the coach may have been able to put a cue to trigger an response. Think pavlovs law. So you maybe watching a student roll and say "apples" as a coaching cue to trigger a set sequence from your student to achieve a skill they have learned.
Then the autonomic stage is where they do it without huge cognitive effort. Think breathing for us, it's autonomic.
I coach in the rehab setting not jiu jitsu. That's how I apply it and I have had athletes compete in other sports.
But I am interested in how people apply this to their lesson structure and coaching style.
Now muscle memory isn't referring to the muscle remembering something. They react to nerve impulses from the brain. So muscle memory in fact is your brain remembering timing the firing of muscles for certain reactions.
As the cognitive stage is where we learn the skill in slow time and it requires alot of intentional focus.
The associative stage is where the coach may have been able to put a cue to trigger an response. Think pavlovs law. So you maybe watching a student roll and say "apples" as a coaching cue to trigger a set sequence from your student to achieve a skill they have learned.
Then the autonomic stage is where they do it without huge cognitive effort. Think breathing for us, it's autonomic.
I coach in the rehab setting not jiu jitsu. That's how I apply it and I have had athletes compete in other sports.
But I am interested in how people apply this to their lesson structure and coaching style.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
You can show some people a technique a couple times and just by watching it they can replicate it in drilling just from visually watching. Same person may have a hard time doing it in sparring for a bit though and have to drill the technique a 100 times.
You are describing difference in rate/speed. Quantity. I meant the general mechanisms of learning.
