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Overcome strong defenses
3 year(s) ago • 1656 views • 20 replies
RBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I'm very interested in finding ways to overcome the really strong defenses like Priit Mihkelsen teaches them.
Does anyone have any practical suggestions?
Does anyone have any practical suggestions?
DBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Great topic!
Not specific to Priit, but I've been working a lot on opening up attacks in side control against very defensive players. One gem that I got recently from a Fabio Gurgel dvd was that a strong cross face allows you to separate their elbows from their torso (use your knees to open them up on the near side once they suffer under the cross face pressure).
In general there's a notion of distraction to open up a tight defense. e.g. knee on belly to get a reaction which then allows for the attack. As for beating Priit's defense style, I'm looking for an underhook from the back a lot. As distraction, my choking hand is more bait than it is for choking.
Not specific to Priit, but I've been working a lot on opening up attacks in side control against very defensive players. One gem that I got recently from a Fabio Gurgel dvd was that a strong cross face allows you to separate their elbows from their torso (use your knees to open them up on the near side once they suffer under the cross face pressure).
In general there's a notion of distraction to open up a tight defense. e.g. knee on belly to get a reaction which then allows for the attack. As for beating Priit's defense style, I'm looking for an underhook from the back a lot. As distraction, my choking hand is more bait than it is for choking.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I think defeating defenses doesn’t come down to a technique or a move necessarily, it comes down to a set of principles. You have to find the right pressure and angle to defeat the frame. If you can’t defeat the frame, you go around it, or avoid it, to create an advantage or better your position
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
It's position specific. Essentially it's "pummeling" - the question is like "how do you get underhooks in greco when the other wrestler is keeping really tight and defensive" - you just pummel better, creating reactions, gaining advantage little by little etc.
And you do it by using the advantage of top - GRAVITY (pressure). So little by little you're making them miserable so you either slowly gain advantage OR they start a predictable transition and then you get a leap of better control during the transition.
And you do it by using the advantage of top - GRAVITY (pressure). So little by little you're making them miserable so you either slowly gain advantage OR they start a predictable transition and then you get a leap of better control during the transition.
NTBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I think defeating defenses doesn’t come down to a technique or a move necessarily, it comes down to a set of principles. You have to find the right pressure and angle to defeat the frame. If you can’t defeat the frame, you go around it, or avoid it, to create an advantage or better your position
For me I think this is critical to bypassing any defense. In the beginning, we are usually taught specifically techniques to defeat specific techniques and there’s some comfort to that since amid one doesn’t have a grappling background then a technique is something to anchor onto. Though as we progress in our journey, looking at situations (offense or defense) as a serious of concepts or principles is more important and allows you to respond much more dynamically.
I’m a big fan of Priit’s defensive techniques though by no means am I a legitimate representative of his system since I’ve only learned via instructionals. When people defeat my defensive cycle, it’s never because the technique itself failed, it’s because my opponent either caught me in a transition or pressured me into a transition where a weakness was exploited
I’m a big fan of Priit’s defensive techniques though by no means am I a legitimate representative of his system since I’ve only learned via instructionals. When people defeat my defensive cycle, it’s never because the technique itself failed, it’s because my opponent either caught me in a transition or pressured me into a transition where a weakness was exploited
RRambatOP
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
It's position specific. Essentially it's 'pummeling' - the question is like 'how do you get underhooks in greco when the other wrestler is keeping really tight and defensive' - you just pummel better, creating reactions, gaining advantage little by little etc. And you do it by using the advantage of top - GRAVITY (pressure). So little by little you're making them miserable so you either slowly gain advantage OR they start a predictable transition and then you get a leap of better control during the transition.
Thank you.
I saw on a video that Priit Mihkelsen let you attack him at one of his seminars. Sure, that wasn't really sparring, but how did you feel about it? I personally think it is very difficult to crack this "Mihkelsen Defense"... How do you see it? Do i miss anything?
I saw on a video that Priit Mihkelsen let you attack him at one of his seminars. Sure, that wasn't really sparring, but how did you feel about it? I personally think it is very difficult to crack this "Mihkelsen Defense"... How do you see it? Do i miss anything?
SSBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Chris Paines talks about this in some of his Globetrotter videos. He made his gym drink the koolaid and had everyone learning and practicing Priit’s stuff (I’m in the cult myself as well) and he said he felt like they broke jiu jitsu. Cause for a few months no one could sub anyone else. But then they had a breakthrough and everyone started catching everyone again, except it was only in transitions.
If they’re holed up in a position (or trench, as Priit would say) I just incentivize them to move, and then catch them before they can dive into the next one. Often times horrific pressure is a great motivator, but so is giving space. Even if you don’t have a plan, messing with their legs gets a lot of people to start moving.
If they’re holed up in a position (or trench, as Priit would say) I just incentivize them to move, and then catch them before they can dive into the next one. Often times horrific pressure is a great motivator, but so is giving space. Even if you don’t have a plan, messing with their legs gets a lot of people to start moving.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I'm very interested in finding ways to overcome the really strong defenses like Priit Mihkelsen teaches them. Does anyone have any practical suggestions?
Last year, Christian Graugart visited us and showed some second-hand Priit techniques, primarily involving back mount defense.
Since then, some of my students have continued to use these concepts against me, with great initial success, but I've been finding ways around my (admittedly less-skilled) students' defenses using one major approach:
Truck position.
I find that if I keep insisting on controlling the back the traditional way, i.e. with hooks, the Priit positions work too well. Of course, you won't be awarded points in competition, but truck is a great way to advance your position: just look for a way to get one twister hook in, and maybe that will open up some doors for you?
Since then, some of my students have continued to use these concepts against me, with great initial success, but I've been finding ways around my (admittedly less-skilled) students' defenses using one major approach:
Truck position.
I find that if I keep insisting on controlling the back the traditional way, i.e. with hooks, the Priit positions work too well. Of course, you won't be awarded points in competition, but truck is a great way to advance your position: just look for a way to get one twister hook in, and maybe that will open up some doors for you?
RRambatOP
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Chris Paines talks about this in some of his Globetrotter videos. He made his gym drink the koolaid and had everyone learning and practicing Priit’s stuff (I’m in the cult myself as well) and he said he felt like they broke jiu jitsu. Cause for a few months no one could sub anyone else. But then they had a breakthrough and everyone started catching everyone again, except it was only in transitions.
Thank you so much!
Seems I begin to understand ...
:-)
Seems I begin to understand ...
:-)
RRambatOP
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Last year, Christian Graugart visited us and showed some second-hand Priit techniques, primarily involving back mount defense. Since then, some of my students have continued to use these concepts against me, with great initial success, but I've been finding ways around my (admittedly less-skilled) students' defenses using one major approach: Truck position. I find that if I keep insisting on controlling the back the traditional way, i.e. with hooks, the Priit positions work too well. Of course, you won't be awarded points in competition, but truck is a great way to advance your position: just look for a way to get one twister hook in, and maybe that will open up some doors for you?
Allright ...
I want to give it a try.
Thanks a lot!
:-)
I want to give it a try.
Thanks a lot!
:-)
NTBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Chris Paines talks about this in some of his Globetrotter videos. He made his gym drink the koolaid and had everyone learning and practicing Priit’s stuff (I’m in the cult myself as well) and he said he felt like they broke jiu jitsu. Cause for a few months no one could sub anyone else. But then they had a breakthrough and everyone started catching everyone again, except it was only in transitions. If they’re holed up in a position (or trench, as Priit would say) I just incentivize them to move, and then catch them before they can dive into the next one. Often times horrific pressure is a great motivator, but so is giving space. Even if you don’t have a plan, messing with their legs gets a lot of people to start moving.
Yes initially as I was using priit’s stuff I was getting caught on leg attacks during transitions. A lot of it is operator dependent I find
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Last year, Christian Graugart visited us and showed some second-hand Priit techniques, primarily involving back mount defense. Since then, some of my students have continued to use these concepts against me, with great initial success, but I've been finding ways around my (admittedly less-skilled) students' defenses using one major approach: Truck position. I find that if I keep insisting on controlling the back the traditional way, i.e. with hooks, the Priit positions work too well. Of course, you won't be awarded points in competition, but truck is a great way to advance your position: just look for a way to get one twister hook in, and maybe that will open up some doors for you?
Truck will kill defensive turtle, especially if you go for the leg attacks from there. I like to also threaten the twister or back control, and gain back control with overhooks. This leads to high finish rate. Sounds weird but it works.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Here is maybe some inspiration https://www.youtube.com/w[...]X30Wx5glJg
So to add on this, many many years ago a variation of this was called the iron pillow, I remember Rickson, John Frankl, Henry Akins, and SBG doing it a lot. I still have no idea how to attack the iron pillow. I still use it defensively as well. The Iron pillow addresses some of the attacks from this video
SSBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
So to add on this, many many years ago a variation of this was called the iron pillow, I remember Rickson, John Frankl, Henry Akins, and SBG doing it a lot. I still have no idea how to attack the iron pillow. I still use it defensively as well. The Iron pillow addresses some of the attacks from this video
Yeah, this is basically the same as what Priit calls Running Man. My favorite thing to do to Running Man or the Iron Pillow is get behind them go to a wrestling cradle. Then I sit back to my butt and thread my legs in and replace my arms. So now I have the same cradle, just with my legs instead. Then I’m free to attack that arm closest to me. When you cross your ankles, make sure the head-side ankle is on the bottom.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Yeah, this is basically the same as what Priit calls Running Man. My favorite thing to do to Running Man or the Iron Pillow is get behind them go to a wrestling cradle. Then I sit back to my butt and thread my legs in and replace my arms. So now I have the same cradle, just with my legs instead. Then I’m free to attack that arm closest to me. When you cross your ankles, make sure the head-side ankle is on the bottom.
I think with the “back version” of the iron pillow, it wouldn’t allow a cradle to form. I’ll drill it, but I don’t think I can be cradled from the back version
RRambatOP
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Here is maybe some inspiration https://www.youtube.com/w[...]X30Wx5glJg
Great! Very interesting! This is the kind of stuff I was looking for ...
Thank you!
:-)
Thank you!
:-)
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Truck will kill defensive turtle, especially if you go for the leg attacks from there. I like to also threaten the twister or back control, and gain back control with overhooks. This leads to high finish rate. Sounds weird but it works.
No.
;)
;)
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Thank you. I saw on a video that Priit Mihkelsen let you attack him at one of his seminars. Sure, that wasn't really sparring, but how did you feel about it? I personally think it is very difficult to crack this 'Mihkelsen Defense'... How do you see it? Do i miss anything?
No you didn't miss anything, attacking Priit sucks. I think on the video it was about lapel control from the back.
But this is about me being less good at jiu jitsu than him, not the defensive positions being inherently superior somehow. It's just good jiu jitsu. And to attack good jiu jitsu you need better jiu jitsu.
But the underlying mechanics of attack and defense are still the same.
But this is about me being less good at jiu jitsu than him, not the defensive positions being inherently superior somehow. It's just good jiu jitsu. And to attack good jiu jitsu you need better jiu jitsu.
But the underlying mechanics of attack and defense are still the same.
RBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I think this is one of my favorite aspects of jiu-jitsu. There are levels to the game and trying to crack different puzzles is fascinating and frustrating all at the same time. Physical attributes, unique strategy, style conflicts, etc. all contribute to this and it's cool to roll with people from various backgrounds to see what variables they offer. We've got a guy at my gym that has a relatively simple game but he is freakishly athletic and strong. He doesn't abuse that, but combines it with solid technical understanding, instincts, and time on the mat to become extremely difficult to submit or control. I'm not ignorant to the fact that high level practitioners would find a way to smash him, but to me and many others around here he's very difficult to deal with. It's cool to experiment with different ways to impose offensive game on him, trying to set traps or feints to cause openings. I feel like many years on the mat with him are partially to credit for my growth in guard passing and catching things in scrambles.
MRBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I think defeating defenses doesn’t come down to a technique or a move necessarily, it comes down to a set of principles. You have to find the right pressure and angle to defeat the frame. If you can’t defeat the frame, you go around it, or avoid it, to create an advantage or better your position
Nailed it
