RegisterLog in
Main forum

sisterpage judochecker.com dead?

3 year(s) ago • 1320 views • 40 replies

Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
3 year(s) ago
Well, it seems to be a page with zero activity.
-But I am sure, that it would work, if only the grappling-practicioners doing both (BJJ & Judo) in here would create a second profile there.
However:
Do we have any interest in establishing a system like beltchecker for other grappling-styles, too?
Do we want to „export“ our community-based self-understanding to our elder bro Judo?
Bobby McMasters
Bobby McMasters
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1272 forum posts12800/1000
3 year(s) ago
Well, it seems to be a page with zero activity. -But I am sure, that it would work, if only the grappling-practicioners doing both (BJJ & Judo) in here would create a second profile there. However: Do we have any interest in establishing a system like beltchecker for other grappling-styles, too? Do we want to „export“ our community-based self-understanding to our elder bro Judo?
I'm in judo checker... but not regularly like I am here.

Even if nobody is very active there, it's a convenient way to keep track of my competition results, promotion dates, digital record of promotions, etc.

I like the beltchecker style of checks and balances, and hope that the judo organizations across the world will adopt something similar in the future.

I don't personally have as much of an issue being a part of a larger judo organization/governing body like USA judo, for example, as these types of organizations are non-profit and, at least in theory, invest back into the larger judo community. This is different than the ibjjf, as all proceeds, in theory and in practice, go directly into Carlinhos' pockets.
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian EllinghausOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
3 year(s) ago
I deleted my profile after I decided to stop doing Judo.
But You are still doing Judo.
Your Judo grows every single day practicing BJJ! 😉
Matt Guyer
Matt Guyer
Purple beltVerified1134 forum posts23250/400
3 year(s) ago
I posted on there a month ago to see if I would get a response, I didn’t lol. However, I do agree with Robert, it’s still nice to have as a personal archive.
Matt Guyer
Matt Guyer
Purple beltVerified1134 forum posts23250/400
3 year(s) ago
It would be nice if more people created a profile there. I’ve come across many people where their BJJ start date is actually when they started judo.
Pete Zawadzki
Pete Zawadzki
Black beltVerified197 forum posts5375/1000
3 year(s) ago
The first time I've heard of judochecker I thought it's an odd idea. Judo has got completely different grading system so I don't see the need for this website. There are well established ways to verify somebody's rank in judo. Uneless you want judocheker to be a social platform but then call it something else.
Matt Guyer
Matt Guyer
Purple beltVerified1134 forum posts23250/400
3 year(s) ago
The first time I've heard of judochecker I thought it's an odd idea. Judo has got completely different grading system so I don't see the need for this website. There are well established ways to verify somebody's rank in judo. Uneless you want judocheker to be a social platform but then call it something else.
That would ruin the “checker” theme though.
Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
3 year(s) ago
But You are still doing Judo. Your Judo grows every single day practicing BJJ! 😉
Hasn't been my experience. The skill sets the two sports are trying to develop are so different that I don't think they're really the same sport. Sure, there's overlap, but not enough to say they're the same I think. Kind of like Nogi Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling. And the overall training culture, at least in Germany, couldn't be more different.
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian EllinghausOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
3 year(s) ago
Hasn't been my experience. The skill sets the two sports are trying to develop are so different that I don't think they're really the same sport. Sure, there's overlap, but not enough to say they're the same I think. Kind of like Nogi Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling. And the overall training culture, at least in Germany, couldn't be more different.
Well, that´s true if You define Judo like the most gyms in Germany do!
But I am a Judoka since the early 80´s and earned a BB in 1992, which was the beginning of really studying and exploring the greater universe of Judo, which Kano Jigoro originally tried to design.
From that point of view BJJ crushed in my Judo-world roundabout 12 years ago and made my Judo better every day on and off the mats.
I am understanding Judo with a holistic claim what means we are all specialists of different aspects/parts of fighting.
And -indeed- BJJ is one of the most interesting and beautiful parts.
-All that stuff has nothing in common with IJF, affiliated organizations, and "sports- Judo!

Pete Zawadzki
Pete Zawadzki
Black beltVerified197 forum posts5375/1000
3 year(s) ago
Well, that´s true if You define Judo like the most gyms in Germany do! But I am a Judoka since the early 80´s and earned a BB in 1992, which was the beginning of really studying and exploring the greater universe of Judo, which Kano Jigoro originally tried to design. From that point of view BJJ crushed in my Judo-world roundabout 12 years ago and made my Judo better every day on and off the mats. I am understanding Judo with a holistic claim what means we are all specialists of different aspects/parts of fighting. And -indeed- BJJ is one of the most interesting and beautiful parts. -All that stuff has nothing in common with IJF, affiliated organizations, and 'sports- Judo!
I agree 100% but unfortunately not many clubs follow this philosophy. I started judo when I was 12 and absolutely loved it. Trained 5 days a week until I got my neck injured in randori when I was 16. I felt alright but the doctor didn't want to give me the clearence to spar and compete. I was still allowed to train but I was young and stupid and without competition it didn't make sense to me at the time. I came back to judo when I was 28 just before the London Olympics in 2012 and rule changes. I couldn't recognise the art I once loved. All the restrictions of what grip and technique you're allowed to use and attitude of the people, hostility towards other martial arts and sports, unwillingness to technical adaptation and constant manipulation of the rules and politics. It wasn't the same anymore. Maybe if I was a member of the club run by someone with your mentality then maybe I would stick to judo. Luckily the son of the club owner got me into bjj. At first I joined just to improve my newaza for judo but I got hooked up really quickly and because judo guys kinda made me choose one or the other I'm still doing jiu jitsu today.
Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
3 year(s) ago
All that stuff has nothing in common with IJF, affiliated organizations, and "sports- Judo!
I understand what you're saying, but the issue, for me at least, is more that this is the way the majority of judo clubs define themselves. Given the answer from Mr Zawadzki, this is obviously not limited to Germany.

I'm sure there are holistic judo schools out there, but these seem to be more the exception than the rule. If I have to go to a hard to find dojo to learn something, I don't think it's honest to call that "Judo."

Please bear in mind, I'm not trying to diss judo. I just don't like it. I'm also not a Thai Boxing or MMA fan either. They're both perfectly valid systems and I'm pretty sure a Thai Boxer or MMA Fighter would beat me senseless if needed. I'm just not into it. And just like there's tons of overlap with Nogi BJJ and MMA, I wouldn't ever say Nogi BJJ is MMA.
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian EllinghausOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
3 year(s) ago
Check!
Not really a dissent.
It is just because I‘m concerned and don‘ t want to accept that all these fuc*ers claiming „Judo“ for their weird interpretation of Kano. 😉😆
Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
3 year(s) ago
I was actually speaking more to the idea that training in BJJ is "still training in Judo". If someone does 10 years of BJJ, they're going to have a very different skill set than if they did 10 years of judo. Again, not better, just different. And if I'm going to have a different end result from my training, I just think it's a little disingenuous to say they're the same. The two have evolved apart from each other, like a parent and child.
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian EllinghausOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
3 year(s) ago
@ Chris
Todays sports-Judo isn‘ t the same. That‘ s true.
And it will even be hard to find actual Judo-players who could claim that BJJ is included in their holistic understanding of Judo. But guys like Komuro Koji and Kashiwazaki Katsuhiko are examples.
Judo is greater than what we actually notice called „Judo“.
That is the point.
If You are looking from a point of what is really going on on the majority of the mats:
You are totally right, training is different, results are different, culture and habits are very different.
But it is not only me, going that way to train Judo (meanwhile 4 decades) AND training BJJ (roundabout 12 years by now) trying to find a way for ourself to reunite the family.
On this platform is -for example- a 8th degree BB Judo active who is actually a BJJ brownbelt and wants to explore what is lost in mainstream-Judo during the last century.

Edited 3 year(s) ago
Bobby McMasters
Bobby McMasters
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1272 forum posts12800/1000
3 year(s) ago
The skill sets the two sports are trying to develop are so different that I don't think they're really the same sport. Sure, there's overlap, but not enough to say they're the same I think.
Same sport/art, just a different rule set in competition. That's it though. They really are the same thing.

I've been pretty successful in judo competition, considering I'm almost exclusively a bjj guy: my judo record is 27-9, and the only dudes I've lost to have been black belts.

Moreover, I've decided to include my judo wins on my beltchecker profile, as I pretty much just used my "bjj" in every match.

I think only 2 of my wins are from ippon throws. It's much easier just to try and avoid getting thrown on your back, grind those dudes down to the ground and submit or pin them.

I've also seen judo-only guys do fairly well in bjj, even with very little bjj-specific training.
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian EllinghausOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
3 year(s) ago
Experiences that are giving courage being on the right way!
Look at Travis Stevens and remember:
no one comes to Valhalla just by pulling guard….. and
…..no one comes to Valhalla refusing newaza!
😆
Jim
Jim
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified346 forum posts3905/1000
3 year(s) ago
I thought about setting up a Judochecker profile, but I haven’t done so because (1) my nidan is registered on the USA Judo website (https://www.teamusa.org/U[...]tions/2018), (2) I have no photos of any judo promotion I have ever received (just certificates), (3) I have no idea about my lineage between Jigoro Kano and my instructor, Randy Russell, (4) I don’t actively train judo any more since I blew out my right shoulder doing randori with a 300+ pound sandan who threw me with uchi mata and landed on me with all his weight. I wonder if the lack of activity on Judochecker compared to Beltchecker is due to judo having more centralized organizations that issue rank (e.g., in the United States, we have USA Judo, the USFJ, and the USJA).

I agree with the comments about the ridiculous judo competition ruleset. The IJF lives in fear that they will be eliminated from the Olympic Games, so they’ll do just about anything to make the sport “spectator friendly” for the average TV viewer with no grappling experience. I greatly prefer Freestyle Judo (http://www.freestylejudo.org/).
Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
3 year(s) ago
Same sport/art, just a different rule set in competition. That's it though. They really are the same thing.
I understand the point you're making, but I don't really agree. Whether we like it or not, the rules same the sport. I mean, technically speaking, you could use this to argue that Boxing and Thai Boxing are the same just different rules.

This always comes back to what skills can I except to develop from training. If I get a BJJ Black Belt, I'm going to be a very different Grappler than if I have a Judo Black Belt. Again, not better, just different. Sure, somewhere there's going to be a place where there's more overlap, just like I can find BJJ gyms that teaches grappling with a gun (an intentional extreme example to make my point). But using those exceptions to apply the the style as a whole is a little misleading. When we're saying what a style is or is not, I do think we have to be honest about it and admit that the majority of schools do, in fact, represent the majority of schools. The minority are the exception, even if we feel they are more in line with what the original intent of the style was.

Also, something I find really interesting about this whole discussion about Judo and BJJ being the same is that you never hear anyone trying to argue this about Sambo. I've even seen style lists that lump BJJ ans Judo together but have a separate entry for Sambo. And this is despite Sambo also being a Judo derivative just like BJJ and having waaaaaaay more in common with Judo than BJJ does.
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian EllinghausOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
3 year(s) ago
Again true.
In my understanding of Judo, Sambo and all these „Nihon JJ“-styles are also subsumable under the roof of Judo. Kano put all functional elements known at his time in a pot, didactizized it and put a „Judo“ label on it. A kind of MMA of all known grappling-styles. And he configured Judo as a flexible, open system. A living organism which should always be willing to grow.
On the other hand You are right if You argue empirically with todays real situation. Sad but true….

Edited 3 year(s) ago
Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
3 year(s) ago
In my understanding of Judo, Sambo and all these „Nihon JJ“-styles are also subsumable under the roof of Judo.
Not sure I agree with this interpretation of Judo. While Kano did want something flexible and open, this is not unique to him. Simultaneously, he seems to have definitely wanted to creat something distinct from at the very least the koryu jujutsu.
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian EllinghausOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
3 year(s) ago
Yes, the main difference was superiority.
And there was additionally a political approach behind this. Like the „Turnbewegung“ in Germany.
The main goal of early Kodokan was to be the leading school in fight and competition.
After proving that in Japan Kano stated, that JJ is dead and that this term only survived overseas.
Following the success in Japan Kodokan sent their best fighters to show superiority to the rest of the world.
One of these conquerers stranded in Brasil, his name was Maeda Mitsuyo.
But -indeed- thats only history and has unfortunately no meaning or impact for/on todays Judo.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
3 year(s) ago
I'm sorry, you lost me here.

So, if I'm reading your post correctly, you agree that Kano was trying to make something distinct and separate from the koryu jujutsu before him. If that is the case, then how do justify defining judo in a way that seems contrary to what Kano was trying to achieve? This looks like it would contradict your earlier statement of Judo as a catch all term to include multiple disciplines.

BTW, Jujutsu is far from dead in Japan. You can still train in traditional koryu jujutsu today. Just look up Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu in YouTube. It's alive and well.
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian EllinghausOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
3 year(s) ago
Well, Koryu JJ is not comparable with grappling. JJ is only a very small aspect in Koryu arts and usually focused on fighting armored.
I am definitely OT now.
But I would love to discuss this anyway…
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian EllinghausOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
3 year(s) ago
OT= Off Topic. 😆
If it is o.k. i will send You a personal message (english or would german language also be o.k.?)
-Otherwise we can open a new thread?!
Bobby McMasters
Bobby McMasters
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1272 forum posts12800/1000
3 year(s) ago
Also, something I find really interesting about this whole discussion about Judo and BJJ being the same is that you never hear anyone trying to argue this about Sambo. I've even seen style lists that lump BJJ ans Judo together but have a separate entry for Sambo. And this is despite Sambo also being a Judo derivative just like BJJ and having waaaaaaay more in common with Judo than BJJ does.
Sambo is also the same thing, imho, just with wrestling shoes and booty shorts.

Not sure if "derivative" is an accurate description though.

All of us can trace our lineage back to Kano. It's pretty much the same thing.
Rambat
Rambat
Black beltVerified60 forum posts2565/1000
3 year(s) ago
I'm in judo checker... but not regularly like I am here. Even if nobody is very active there, it's a convenient way to keep track of my competition results, promotion dates, digital record of promotions, etc. I like the beltchecker style of checks and balances, and hope that the judo organizations across the world will adopt something similar in the future. I don't personally have as much of an issue being a part of a larger judo organization/governing body like USA judo, for example, as these types of organizations are non-profit and, at least in theory, invest back into the larger judo community. This is different than the ibjjf, as all proceeds, in theory and in practice, go directly into Carlinhos' pockets.
Hi Sebastian, I thought about registering there as well. I have decided against it. If I understand correctly, it's about verifying the dan level you have in judo.
That's where I see a problem. I have been active in judo for 50 years now. I started in the former GDR. I can no longer take every single Dan exam from that time. In addition, after 1990 I did NOT join the "official judo association" of the Federal Republic of Germany.
Of course I can prove that I was awarded 6th Dan, 7th Dan and also 8th Dan in judo. However, by a small organization that is largely influential and almost unknown in Germany.
Basically, I was only graduated by my teacher (Frank Thiele, 9th Dan Judo) - just like it is done in BJJ. The documents of the organization mentioned were there as an "embellishment" so to speak.
Over the past 10-15 years, this has repeatedly caused me to be insulted as "dubious" here in Germany simply because I do not belong to the "only and true official association" and do not submit to its graduation circus.
Sebastian, you and some others here know my judo, and you know that I teach in the lineage of Tokyo Hirano. I think I'm doing it reasonably acceptably and I hope to be able to practice and teach this type of judo for a long time to come.
But I don't feel like having to argue again with people who just can't imagine that there is good judo outside of the "official federations".
However, I am afraid that this will happen if I want to have my dan grades verified on the website mentioned.
I just don't feel like doing that anymore.
It's too exhausting for me, it costs me strength that I urgently need for other things.
It also doesn't matter to me (anymore) whether anyone thinks my judo grades are "legitimate" or not.
Just so you understand why I won't log into the aforementioned site.
:-)

Post a reply

Add a quote
 
Changes saved
Success
An error occured
Required fields missing
This person is already on Beltchecker.