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Carlos Rojas gone from Beltchecker?
3 year(s) ago • 4498 views • 113 replies
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
So. It seems he has deleted his profile. And with that the forum thread(s) he started are gone.
Is this a desirable or undesirable result for the benefit of the sport?
Also for Christian:
If someone deletes their profile, what happens by default on the backend to forum posts and threads they made?
Is this a desirable or undesirable result for the benefit of the sport?
Also for Christian:
If someone deletes their profile, what happens by default on the backend to forum posts and threads they made?
PZBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
The threads are still on the forum, Jorgen.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Ah my bad yes, forum threads and posts are still here. That's all good.
The question was moreso towards Beltchecker as a whole. So there was someone who's lineage was doubted. He himself seemed a legit practicioner.
Essentially he was like F that and deleted his whole profile. So is this a good thing or not? Let's discuss.
The question was moreso towards Beltchecker as a whole. So there was someone who's lineage was doubted. He himself seemed a legit practicioner.
Essentially he was like F that and deleted his whole profile. So is this a good thing or not? Let's discuss.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
My 2c: myself in that position would've stayed on Beltchecker. The account was still verified, there were many people putting trust in and noone was doubting skills, only one specific promotion.
It would've been easily explained if Carlos Rojas had indeed been conned by a fake blackbelt.
Overall, if Beltchecker became a bigger deal then this result would be good. If those who have exiled themselves from the site (e.g. also seminary jiu jitsu guy) would get questioned in real life by potential students asking "So...why are you not on that Beltchecker site?" and they would have to come up with an answer - that'd be a good thing.
However right now even here new ppl will never know and they can just go about their jiu jitsu lives...
Of course with epic public BS like Seminary, people will draw negative attention to themselves. But people with convoluted and shaft histories (and there have been already several on the platform) won't.
To me it's a serious problem if someone knowingly lies / obscures their actual skills and/or lineage.
It would've been easily explained if Carlos Rojas had indeed been conned by a fake blackbelt.
Overall, if Beltchecker became a bigger deal then this result would be good. If those who have exiled themselves from the site (e.g. also seminary jiu jitsu guy) would get questioned in real life by potential students asking "So...why are you not on that Beltchecker site?" and they would have to come up with an answer - that'd be a good thing.
However right now even here new ppl will never know and they can just go about their jiu jitsu lives...
Of course with epic public BS like Seminary, people will draw negative attention to themselves. But people with convoluted and shaft histories (and there have been already several on the platform) won't.
To me it's a serious problem if someone knowingly lies / obscures their actual skills and/or lineage.
SEBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The open question for me is how to deal with victims of fake BB when the rest of the package is o.k. (verified skills, maybe own students, etc.). -In case of all cards are open on the table and the person himself accepted the situation.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The knowing and willing deception / staying ignorant towards sufficiently proven deception is where my line goes.
To me personally a good jiu jitsuka with shady lineage is more acceptable than a lousy grappler with a by-papers legit lineage that has been legitimated by a known name who didn't care enough, didn't pay attention enough or just gave belts for monetary gain.
To me personally a good jiu jitsuka with shady lineage is more acceptable than a lousy grappler with a by-papers legit lineage that has been legitimated by a known name who didn't care enough, didn't pay attention enough or just gave belts for monetary gain.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Also, the scenario where ANY legitimate skill and knowledge jiu jitsuka gets off Beltchecker because they feel they were harassed in the forums and elsewhere is definitely undesirable for Beltchecker.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The open question for me is how to deal with victims of fake BB when the rest of the package is o.k. (verified skills, maybe own students, etc.)
This is a question I asked at one point a while back, but it didn't get a lot of attention/engagement at the time, which is fine.
In the situation to which I was referring, there were promotions being conducted without proper etiquette/oversight: people being promoted to black belt by under qualified black belts.
In either case, what happens to the student of these people? How would you vote on their profiles? These are good, important questions, I think.
In the situation to which I was referring, there were promotions being conducted without proper etiquette/oversight: people being promoted to black belt by under qualified black belts.
In either case, what happens to the student of these people? How would you vote on their profiles? These are good, important questions, I think.
MGPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I liked Carlos. The general consensus seemed to be that he was a legitimate black belt. Yet his status continued to be questioned persistently. Perhaps in the future, when it is agreed a person is what they say they are, but the lineage is questionable, the questioning can be done in a not so public way.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
So. It seems he has deleted his profile. And with that the forum thread(s) he started are gone. Is this a desirable or undesirable result for the benefit of the sport? Also for Christian: If someone deletes their profile, what happens by default on the backend to forum posts and threads they made?
If they actually deactivate or delete their profile, all their forum posts, votes, comments etc. will disappear.
I’m this case, however, it looks like Carlos just changed the profile name to “deleted”. Probably he will actually deactivate or delete it once he see my reply on his question of how to do that.
I’m this case, however, it looks like Carlos just changed the profile name to “deleted”. Probably he will actually deactivate or delete it once he see my reply on his question of how to do that.
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I liked Carlos. The general consensus seemed to be that he was a legitimate black belt. Yet his status continued to be questioned persistently. Perhaps in the future, when it is agreed a person is what they say they are, but the lineage is questionable, the questioning can be done in a not so public way.
That's how I first went about with Carlos. He actually did correct e.g. his original (hopefuly typo) claim that he was promoted to a lower belt by Carlos(!) Gracie Sr. But he didn't want to take my advice on how to clean up his profile from information that could and would be put into question and on some important issues, his answers raised more questions than they answered (e.g. the claim that Naka was a Carlson Gracie BB, even though he did not appear on Carlson's list of all his BB:s).
The forum thread on Nagas legitimacy actually didn't out Carlos until he himself voluntarily wrote in it that he was the one with the lineage which was being investigated. Before that, he was free to sit it out and just observe. Perhaps then changing his promotion history claims based on what came out of the thread - I personally would have verified him both if he backed down on the Naka promotion claims or if evidence surfaced that Naka was in fact a legit 2:nd degree BB with solid lineage.
The forum thread on Nagas legitimacy actually didn't out Carlos until he himself voluntarily wrote in it that he was the one with the lineage which was being investigated. Before that, he was free to sit it out and just observe. Perhaps then changing his promotion history claims based on what came out of the thread - I personally would have verified him both if he backed down on the Naka promotion claims or if evidence surfaced that Naka was in fact a legit 2:nd degree BB with solid lineage.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
He should have not deleted his profile.
Should have stuck to his position until everything got cleared up.
Sad situation
Should have stuck to his position until everything got cleared up.
Sad situation
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
the questioning can be done in a not so public way.
I don't think any lines were crossed, unless the debate spilled over into his personal life, as he claims.
Otherwise I think it's important for everyone to discuss and come to consensus on such issues, so I appreciate the fact that it's public.
Otherwise I think it's important for everyone to discuss and come to consensus on such issues, so I appreciate the fact that it's public.
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
While I think we are right to question any black belt who presents insufficient evidence for their rank, we have to be careful about how we handle it so that it doesn’t come across as an ad hominem (personal attack).
It takes many years to earn a black belt, so a person is likely to become very close to their instructor during that time. I have been training with my professor since 1999, so he’s like family to me. If someone questioned the legitimacy of his black belt, it would be difficult for me to not take offense, even though I teach logic for a living, so I try to be objective and calm at all times when arguing. (Fortunately, there’s a three-and-a-half minute video on YouTube of Egan Inoue giving my professor his black belt, so I doubt anyone will go there.)
Also, since we put so much emphasis on lineage in BJJ, questioning an instructor’s black belt seems to de-legitimize the student’s black belt because it “breaks the chain,” even if the student has black-belt-level skills and is worthy of the rank.
In academics, we rip each other’s arguments apart in public all of the time at conferences and in journal articles, so we have pretty thick skin. Most people aren’t used to that, though. I think this may be why Carlos took offense, even though the people questioning his instructor did so for the right reasons (like any good philosopher, they were seeking the truth).
It takes many years to earn a black belt, so a person is likely to become very close to their instructor during that time. I have been training with my professor since 1999, so he’s like family to me. If someone questioned the legitimacy of his black belt, it would be difficult for me to not take offense, even though I teach logic for a living, so I try to be objective and calm at all times when arguing. (Fortunately, there’s a three-and-a-half minute video on YouTube of Egan Inoue giving my professor his black belt, so I doubt anyone will go there.)
Also, since we put so much emphasis on lineage in BJJ, questioning an instructor’s black belt seems to de-legitimize the student’s black belt because it “breaks the chain,” even if the student has black-belt-level skills and is worthy of the rank.
In academics, we rip each other’s arguments apart in public all of the time at conferences and in journal articles, so we have pretty thick skin. Most people aren’t used to that, though. I think this may be why Carlos took offense, even though the people questioning his instructor did so for the right reasons (like any good philosopher, they were seeking the truth).
BBBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Also, the scenario where ANY legitimate skill and knowledge jiu jitsuka gets off Beltchecker because they feel they were harassed in the forums and elsewhere is definitely undesirable for Beltchecker.
Agreed.
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The open question for me is how to deal with victims of fake BB when the rest of the package is o.k. (verified skills, maybe own students, etc.). -In case of all cards are open on the table and the person himself accepted the situation.
As always, I'd say transparency is key. That and being humble on the strength of your own evidence and information (or lack thereof), being ready to take a step back and lower your claims when it doesn't hold up regardless of community attempts to help you straighten it out (which you really should help with and be thankful for, not make more difficult through hiding dates on diplomas etc).
So what standards should we uphold? SJJIF has already more or less copied IBJJF standards and generally on Beltchecker, I see almost a concensus towards IBJJF equivalent standards, minus the moneygrab, gringo and creonte BS. With in many cases higher expectations on transparancy and evidence than IBJJF has.
So would you verify or dispute the following?
*No lineage, high skills: Already experienced Judo or MMA-people having studied BJJ hard with Sensei Youtube etc. plus visiting open mats and competing regularly where they were allowed to compete in higher belt classes without an instructor with lineage vouching for them. Now, they claim blue, purple or even black belt on Beltchecker, without having passed the lower belts on Beltchecker or anywhere else (for instance through a grading committé at a Globetrotters camp), e.g. not equivalent to IBJJF standards, even if they are on equal terms with people with the same belt but with a lineage when it comes to skills. Optimally, they are totally transparent about the lack of lineage. Does it make any difference if they were bad faith promoted (they shouldn't even believe in it themselves) through the belts by a no-lineage-BB with BB equivalent skills?
*No lineage, high skills, good faith promoted by a BB without a lineage: They had reason to believe they actually passed through the belts or got their latest degree from a legit lineage BB, but the instructor later was exposed as a no-lineage-BB with BB equivalent skills. Or perhaps, a no-lineage BB with less than BB equivalent skills, but the person believing in good faith to have been promoted has the skills of the belt he or she believes to have been promoted to. Should they need to back down and pass through IBJJF equivalent belt times again or can it be mended e.g. by a promotion directly to a higher belt or degree by an obviously legit BB or by the Globetrotters promoting committé at a camp?
*Lineage, high skills, promoted by a BB who has never met them, doesn't even meet them during the promotion and perhaps wouldn't even be able to point them out in a lineup later the same day. This is officially against IBJJF standards (Globetrotters were kicked out for less), although we all probably know it occurs from time to time, even with (especially with?) the big Brazilian teams..The promoted person has the skills and has a similar lineage, e.g. with a no degree or one degree BB being the one who has brought them to being BB level themselves or at least evaluating them during the promotion day/camp but officially, the degree then is awarded by this promoting instructor's own instructor. I've also seen quite a few cases on Beltchecker where the no degree or one degree BB is claimed to be the promoting instructor, legitimized by a higher degree BB agreeing on the arrangement but not willing to stand as the actual promoting instructore themself. So they are really boosting the lower BB to a temporary status of being able to promote to BB, even if it's against IBJJF standard and the IBJJF will still want the signature of the higher degree BB to accept the promotion.
So what standards should we uphold? SJJIF has already more or less copied IBJJF standards and generally on Beltchecker, I see almost a concensus towards IBJJF equivalent standards, minus the moneygrab, gringo and creonte BS. With in many cases higher expectations on transparancy and evidence than IBJJF has.
So would you verify or dispute the following?
*No lineage, high skills: Already experienced Judo or MMA-people having studied BJJ hard with Sensei Youtube etc. plus visiting open mats and competing regularly where they were allowed to compete in higher belt classes without an instructor with lineage vouching for them. Now, they claim blue, purple or even black belt on Beltchecker, without having passed the lower belts on Beltchecker or anywhere else (for instance through a grading committé at a Globetrotters camp), e.g. not equivalent to IBJJF standards, even if they are on equal terms with people with the same belt but with a lineage when it comes to skills. Optimally, they are totally transparent about the lack of lineage. Does it make any difference if they were bad faith promoted (they shouldn't even believe in it themselves) through the belts by a no-lineage-BB with BB equivalent skills?
*No lineage, high skills, good faith promoted by a BB without a lineage: They had reason to believe they actually passed through the belts or got their latest degree from a legit lineage BB, but the instructor later was exposed as a no-lineage-BB with BB equivalent skills. Or perhaps, a no-lineage BB with less than BB equivalent skills, but the person believing in good faith to have been promoted has the skills of the belt he or she believes to have been promoted to. Should they need to back down and pass through IBJJF equivalent belt times again or can it be mended e.g. by a promotion directly to a higher belt or degree by an obviously legit BB or by the Globetrotters promoting committé at a camp?
*Lineage, high skills, promoted by a BB who has never met them, doesn't even meet them during the promotion and perhaps wouldn't even be able to point them out in a lineup later the same day. This is officially against IBJJF standards (Globetrotters were kicked out for less), although we all probably know it occurs from time to time, even with (especially with?) the big Brazilian teams..The promoted person has the skills and has a similar lineage, e.g. with a no degree or one degree BB being the one who has brought them to being BB level themselves or at least evaluating them during the promotion day/camp but officially, the degree then is awarded by this promoting instructor's own instructor. I've also seen quite a few cases on Beltchecker where the no degree or one degree BB is claimed to be the promoting instructor, legitimized by a higher degree BB agreeing on the arrangement but not willing to stand as the actual promoting instructore themself. So they are really boosting the lower BB to a temporary status of being able to promote to BB, even if it's against IBJJF standard and the IBJJF will still want the signature of the higher degree BB to accept the promotion.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
BBPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Ah my bad yes, forum threads and posts are still here. That's all good. The question was moreso towards Beltchecker as a whole. So there was someone who's lineage was doubted. He himself seemed a legit practicioner. Essentially he was like F that and deleted his whole profile. So is this a good thing or not? Let's discuss.
I kinda view it the same as kids brought into a country illegally when they were young. It's not their fault they are here illegally, and they shouldn't be punished for it. It would suck to find out your lineage isn't legit, but at the same time if you put in the time, the work, and others vouch for you. I don't see how you should shoulder any blame for those who came before you.
JTPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I mean, it's not like anyone is asking him to start back at white belt.
How should something like this be resolved?
How should something like this be resolved?
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Josh, in this particular case, there were two distinct BB timelines. He claimed to have been promoted two times to the same degree (black belt). First by Nakamura in 2012 and then by Nic in 2015. As far as I can tell, everyone was fine with the 2015 timeline, so it wouldn't have been more difficult than reverting to that timeline (and thus wait with claiming 3:rd degree until 2024). With the option to go back to claiming 3:rd degree earlier if and when good evidence for that timeline surface and the questions raised have been resolved.
That way, he would have had a widely accepted and verified 2:nd degree on Beltchecker with which he could also confirm student's promotions up to and including black belt. All three of his BB:s on Beltchecker were promoted in 2022, so they're in either case totally legit based on the 2015 BB timeline.
That way, he would have had a widely accepted and verified 2:nd degree on Beltchecker with which he could also confirm student's promotions up to and including black belt. All three of his BB:s on Beltchecker were promoted in 2022, so they're in either case totally legit based on the 2015 BB timeline.
JTPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Josh, in this particular case, there were two distinct BB timelines. He claimed to have been promoted two times to the same degree (black belt). First by Nakamura in 2012 and then by Nic in 2015. As far as I can tell, everyone was fine with the 2015 timeline, so it wouldn't have been more difficult than reverting to that timeline (and thus wait with claiming 3:rd degree until 2024). With the option to go back to claiming 3:rd degree earlier if and when good evidence for that timeline surface and the questions raised have been resolved. That way, he would have had a widely accepted and verified 2:nd degree on Beltchecker with which he could also confirm student's promotions up to and including black belt. All three of his BB:s on Beltchecker were promoted in 2022, so they're in either case totally legit based on the 2015 BB timeline.
Considering that BB degress are based on time in rank and not necessarily skill(with some notable exceptions)that seems reasonable to me.
JPBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
This is a question I asked at one point a while back, but it didn't get a lot of attention/engagement at the time, which is fine. In the situation to which I was referring, there were promotions being conducted without proper etiquette/oversight: people being promoted to black belt by under qualified black belts. In either case, what happens to the student of these people? How would you vote on their profiles? These are good, important questions, I think.
I cam across this once. A still current student of mine was given his black belt by a guy that said god gave him his black belt. I busted him back down to purple, he put in his time, earned his rank, and is now one of my black belts. Probably the longest path anyone has ever taken to black belt.
JPBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
He should have not deleted his profile. Should have stuck to his position until everything got cleared up. Sad situation
I agree. Just makes him look more suspect.
JPBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Josh, in this particular case, there were two distinct BB timelines. He claimed to have been promoted two times to the same degree (black belt). First by Nakamura in 2012 and then by Nic in 2015. As far as I can tell, everyone was fine with the 2015 timeline, so it wouldn't have been more difficult than reverting to that timeline (and thus wait with claiming 3:rd degree until 2024). With the option to go back to claiming 3:rd degree earlier if and when good evidence for that timeline surface and the questions raised have been resolved. That way, he would have had a widely accepted and verified 2:nd degree on Beltchecker with which he could also confirm student's promotions up to and including black belt. All three of his BB:s on Beltchecker were promoted in 2022, so they're in either case totally legit based on the 2015 BB timeline.
I personally feel that he shouldn't have over complicated his profile with the two different timelines.
JTPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I cam across this once. A still current student of mine was given his black belt by a guy that said god gave him his black belt. I busted him back down to purple, he put in his time, earned his rank, and is now one of my black belts. Probably the longest path anyone has ever taken to black belt.
Did you evaluate your student a decided purple was that appropriate rank? I've always been curious about things like this
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I cam across this once. A still current student of mine was given his black belt by a guy that said god gave him his black belt. I busted him back down to purple, he put in his time, earned his rank, and is now one of my black belts. Probably the longest path anyone has ever taken to black belt.
Was he promoted by Tyrion Scott, or is this a different case of "prophet-sharing" ? :)
PZBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Also, the scenario where ANY legitimate skill and knowledge jiu jitsuka gets off Beltchecker because they feel they were harassed in the forums and elsewhere is definitely undesirable for Beltchecker.
I don't think Carlos was harassed in any of the threads. If his family was harassed anywhere that's a different story and it should never happen so I can understand if he was upset about it. I also think that if a person with legitimate skills and knowledge but with lineage which is proven false is positively verified here it is undesirable for Beltchecker. In this particular scenario it was a case in progress and as Nic officially approved his belts, I feel it would finish the way Carlos wants it.
PZBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
It’s not just his black belt in question, he also claims to have been promoted to blue and purple by Carlson Gracie. I was also promoted to blue and purple by Carlson and would like to see some proof of his claims. I am never offended when anyone questions my lineage or legitimacy and always willing to prove it.
I've almost forgotten about it. Unfortunately we can't ask Carlson about it. Just like we can't ask Mike Merkulic if he promoted him to brown. However James Nakamura is apparently still alive.
PZBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Carlos messaged me privately and sent a supposed copy of his DD-214 (military discharge papers). I asked him the specifics about his promotions by Carlson but he did the Houdini and never replied. The onus is on him to provide proof of his claims, just as he is so quick to “prove” his military claims. Personally, I think Carlos is full of fuclking shit but if he’s able to prove his claims I will be happy to admit I was wrong.
Checking people's military service and medical qualifications is out of my jurisdiction.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I cam across this once. A still current student of mine was given his black belt by a guy that said god gave him his black belt. I busted him back down to purple, he put in his time, earned his rank, and is now one of my black belts. Probably the longest path anyone has ever taken to black belt.
TLDR; Jay Pages is above God (/is [a] God).
(common knowledge, of course)
(common knowledge, of course)
PZBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
TLDR; Jay Pages is above God (/is [a] God). (common knowledge, of course)
Jiu Jitsu is a cult
