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Your expertise requested
3 year(s) ago • 699 views • 18 replies
ARBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Today during noon class, we were going over some triangle setups and the details of finishing it effectively. We got to a point where we split the class by experience level, with the lower experience practicing the basics and nuances. I took this group.
I have been a ski instructor for almost 30 years, and have taught countless Muay Thai classes, and plenty of Jiu Jitsu classes. I take pedagogy very seriously. Sometimes when teaching Jiu Jitsu, I get worried that I’m not instructing proper technique, not because I’m not a good teacher, but because my BJJ is basic. Lol. I said this to my group, and I’d like to hear your comments or concerns about this statement. And remember, it’s all to help me be a better BJJ instructor. Thanks!
“As you get better at Jiu Jitsu, the fine details of a submission become more and more important. Your partners / opponents will be getting better and better as well. They may only need one little mistake made by you to escape said submission. If you take short cuts now, they will become a habit. Speaking from experience, habits are very hard to break. My suggestion to you all is to practice this with the goal of making each step flow in to the next as smoothly as possible, without skipping any of the steps, so that the combined steps seem as one. This will help make the execution of this submission seem fast. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.”
I have been a ski instructor for almost 30 years, and have taught countless Muay Thai classes, and plenty of Jiu Jitsu classes. I take pedagogy very seriously. Sometimes when teaching Jiu Jitsu, I get worried that I’m not instructing proper technique, not because I’m not a good teacher, but because my BJJ is basic. Lol. I said this to my group, and I’d like to hear your comments or concerns about this statement. And remember, it’s all to help me be a better BJJ instructor. Thanks!
“As you get better at Jiu Jitsu, the fine details of a submission become more and more important. Your partners / opponents will be getting better and better as well. They may only need one little mistake made by you to escape said submission. If you take short cuts now, they will become a habit. Speaking from experience, habits are very hard to break. My suggestion to you all is to practice this with the goal of making each step flow in to the next as smoothly as possible, without skipping any of the steps, so that the combined steps seem as one. This will help make the execution of this submission seem fast. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.”
ARBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
And by the way, f you’ve heard this from someone else, I probably did as well and just forgotten. So I’m not taking credit for it. Lol
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Sometimes when teaching Jiu Jitsu, I get worried that I’m not instructing proper technique, not because I’m not a good teacher, but because my BJJ is basic. Lol. I said this to my group, comments or concerns about this statement.
I wouldn't trip too hard about it. If you're working with beginners, I think it's most important that they're having a good time. If they're having a good time, they're more likely to return, and if this process continues to happen, they'll get better regardless of what you do.
SEBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
For me it is a good description of what we call BJJ fundamental -lessons.
Added Roberts fun-factor it is well rounded.
For our classes we have a slogan:
fun - excitement - applicability
Now I have to add care-precision-awareness or something like that. 🫣
Added Roberts fun-factor it is well rounded.
For our classes we have a slogan:
fun - excitement - applicability
Now I have to add care-precision-awareness or something like that. 🫣
ARBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I wouldn't trip too hard about it. If you're working with beginners, I think it's most important that they're having a good time. If they're having a good time, they're more likely to return, and if this process continues to happen, they'll get better regardless of what you do.
Oh for sure! These guys are hooked already. Like upper white belts. We all had fun. :)
DBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
"Slow is smooth and smooth is fast”
I don't get this, slow is slow, and there's nothing wrong with that lol
I don't get this, slow is slow, and there's nothing wrong with that lol
MGBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I'm a big advocate of doing things slowly with absolute control the whole time. As a professional musician, one learns to practice slowly to create accuracy. If you practice with speed at the beginning, then things are sloppy, and when you learn your piece, you will always play it sloppily. But if you practice it slowly and cleanly, when you learn to speed up, you will play fast and cleanly. Speed comes as a natural adjunct to knowledge. I like using the phrase "no need for speed". And when you're an older practitioner and the speed is unavailable, if you learned to do things slowly with control at the onset, then you will still be able to finish.
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I made this image for the students in my first-year college seminar. Every time you try to cut a corner, you just end up creating a whole new corner. It pays to be methodical.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
![Slideyfoot [jun]](userimg/5e25cf311adfd.jpg){kind=small}
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
“As you get better at Jiu Jitsu, the fine details of a submission become more and more important. Your partners / opponents will be getting better and better as well. They may only need one little mistake made by you to escape said submission. If you take short cuts now, they will become a habit. Speaking from experience, habits are very hard to break. My suggestion to you all is to practice this with the goal of making each step flow in to the next as smoothly as possible, without skipping any of the steps, so that the combined steps seem as one. This will help make the execution of this submission seem fast. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.”
I think that could be clearer and more succinct, personally. My translation: "be efficient with your movement. Combined with timing, that will make you seem faster, without actually moving quickly." :D
MRBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I made this image for the students in my first-year college seminar. Every time you try to cut a corner, you just end up creating a whole new corner. It pays to be methodical.
Dude thats actually great
GFBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
making each step flow in to the next as smoothly as possible, without skipping any of the steps, so that the combined steps seem as one.
"so that the combined steps seem as one"
I like that!
but you asked for feedback so here we go ^^
I don't like to reduce a submission to steps that must be followed one-by-one, so "without skipping any of the steps" feels off.
I prefer to look at submissions as made of goals, which can be achieved any number of ways.
Triangles:
Entry phase : myriads ways to capture one arm and the neck,
in the Gi I like the Vice Guard from Jon Thomas, no-gi hip-bump or william's guard set-ups
control phase : deny escapes, prevent posturing up or worse yourself getting stacked, stepped over, etc.
Finish : use the strongest muscles of the legs to squeeze the carotids at a right angle.
it's totally ok to skip steps, it's even ok to let go of the submission altogether if it's not there and you do on your terms, owning the tempo.
I also like the idea of teaching from the end :
3) Can you reliably finish **if** you get the perfect final set-up? yes? great, let's walk back one step
2) Can you reliably prevent escapes ? no? let's work more on that
1) ok let's work on entries now
I haven't done the same for Triangles, but I made those notes for the Back Attack system. Similar idea : Goals, toolbox, be creative. vs "here's the step by step, don't miss any"
I realize I might be splitting hair ^^
I like that!
but you asked for feedback so here we go ^^
I don't like to reduce a submission to steps that must be followed one-by-one, so "without skipping any of the steps" feels off.
I prefer to look at submissions as made of goals, which can be achieved any number of ways.
Triangles:
Entry phase : myriads ways to capture one arm and the neck,
in the Gi I like the Vice Guard from Jon Thomas, no-gi hip-bump or william's guard set-ups
control phase : deny escapes, prevent posturing up or worse yourself getting stacked, stepped over, etc.
Finish : use the strongest muscles of the legs to squeeze the carotids at a right angle.
it's totally ok to skip steps, it's even ok to let go of the submission altogether if it's not there and you do on your terms, owning the tempo.
I also like the idea of teaching from the end :
3) Can you reliably finish **if** you get the perfect final set-up? yes? great, let's walk back one step
2) Can you reliably prevent escapes ? no? let's work more on that
1) ok let's work on entries now
I haven't done the same for Triangles, but I made those notes for the Back Attack system. Similar idea : Goals, toolbox, be creative. vs "here's the step by step, don't miss any"
I realize I might be splitting hair ^^
ARBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I don't like to reduce a submission to steps that must be followed one-by-one, so 'without skipping any of the steps' feels off. I prefer to look at submissions as made of goals, which can be achieved any number of ways.
Hmmm. Interesting. I'll definitely think on that. :)
I guess maybe that's how I think because that's how I learn. Personally I need that step by step in the beginning or I get confused.
I guess maybe that's how I think because that's how I learn. Personally I need that step by step in the beginning or I get confused.
GFBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Hmmm. Interesting. I'll definitely think on that. :) I guess maybe that's how I think because that's how I learn. Personally I need that step by step in the beginning or I get confused.
100% we need to start somewhere when teaching, so teaching one full sequence is not wrong by any means.
It's just that after a while it's good to see that that sequence is just one possible arrangement among many.
I really recommend giving the "endgame" methodology a go though!
recently I tried it with some new students and I think it makes sense and it resonated with them
first develop confidence that if you get all the ducks in a row, you can actually finish, and work backwards.
then they have a clear goal in mind : if I go that point, I can finish with a high likelihood!
the alternative being that they'll have a hard time getting to a good set-up to begin with, and then the opponent will escape.
lots of reps from a finishing position, increasing resistance
work backward
It's just that after a while it's good to see that that sequence is just one possible arrangement among many.
I really recommend giving the "endgame" methodology a go though!
recently I tried it with some new students and I think it makes sense and it resonated with them
first develop confidence that if you get all the ducks in a row, you can actually finish, and work backwards.
then they have a clear goal in mind : if I go that point, I can finish with a high likelihood!
the alternative being that they'll have a hard time getting to a good set-up to begin with, and then the opponent will escape.
lots of reps from a finishing position, increasing resistance
work backward
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Hmmm. Interesting. I'll definitely think on that. :) I guess maybe that's how I think because that's how I learn. Personally I need that step by step in the beginning or I get confused.
Same. I like a simple structure: show me the move in a few steps (more than five minutes of demonstration is usually excessive), don't talk too much, then let me drill it with progressive resistance.
MRBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Thats the approach I prefer
CBBrown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I wouldn't trip too hard about it. If you're working with beginners, I think it's most important that they're having a good time. If they're having a good time, they're more likely to return, and if this process continues to happen, they'll get better regardless of what you do.
Couldn't agree more with this. In all honesty, I think the bigger problem most people have teaching beginners is overloading them with details and information. Most beginners who haven't done anything like Jiu-Jitsu in the past have a hard enough time keeping left and right separate. Giving them a ton of fine points is just going to confuse them. If they are brand new, I just want them getting the general motion and pattern right. If they can get one or two more details. This is the big problem letting people coach too early, at least for me. I've literally had classes where a beginner was paired with a fresh blue belt, and the blue belt was so busy giving tips and details the beginner barely had the time to actually do the technique.
ARBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Couldn't agree more with this. In all honesty, I think the bigger problem most people have teaching beginners is overloading them with details and information. Most beginners who haven't done anything like Jiu-Jitsu in the past have a hard enough time keeping left and right separate. Giving them a ton of fine points is just going to confuse them. If they are brand new, I just want them getting the general motion and pattern right. If they can get one or two more details. This is the big problem letting people coach too early, at least for me. I've literally had classes where a beginner was paired with a fresh blue belt, and the blue belt was so busy giving tips and details the beginner barely had the time to actually do the technique.
Well it wasn't exactly like that. These weren't brand new people. 1 to 4 strips on the white belt. The details I was trying to have them understand were what we all consider "normal". Keeping posture broken and cutting an angle was really all it was. But I totally agree with you. Typically I try to keep the talking to a minimum. Being direct in what I'm explaining, with a few demos from various angles so everyone can see. Then get after it while I walk around helping or answering questions. If there are common issues (which I consider my fault), bring them back to mention the issue with another demo or two, and back at it. :)
ARBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
All great suggestions everyone!
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
A triangle is one of those submissions that's super easy to catch, but can be difficult to finish. I teach the concept, how it works, what's the mechanic. Details is like the extra seasoning, but I always add the salt, which is basically about controlling the posture and making the opponent carry your weight.
Then there are like gazillion setups, all with different details. :D
Then there are like gazillion setups, all with different details. :D
