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Has anyone ever seen anything like this?
3 year(s) ago • 998 views • 22 replies
BBrown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Just trying to gauge the level of absurdity with this situation. I'm not going to name any names or locations. However, I watched a new white belt get very seriously injured (compression fracture of the T6-T7) by another competitor at a small competition. The injured white belt was a true novice with a few months of experience and entered the <6 month novice white belt division.
The other party was also wearing a white belt, but wasn't moving like one and performed a technical judo throw that caused the injury. It turns out that while this "white belt" was technically a "white belt" in BJJ, they also held a third degree black belt in judo and had international level judo competition experience including a national judo championship and a bronze medal at the Judo Pan Ams.
When confronted the judoka claimed "you compete at the belt you are given by your instructor" and "I haven't done Judo in years" as justification for competing in the white belt division. The tournament rules are not explicit like IBJJF rules which say "No Judo BBs in the white belt division."
Am I completely off base in thinking that this should never have happened?
The other party was also wearing a white belt, but wasn't moving like one and performed a technical judo throw that caused the injury. It turns out that while this "white belt" was technically a "white belt" in BJJ, they also held a third degree black belt in judo and had international level judo competition experience including a national judo championship and a bronze medal at the Judo Pan Ams.
When confronted the judoka claimed "you compete at the belt you are given by your instructor" and "I haven't done Judo in years" as justification for competing in the white belt division. The tournament rules are not explicit like IBJJF rules which say "No Judo BBs in the white belt division."
Am I completely off base in thinking that this should never have happened?
Edited 3 year(s) ago
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Just trying to gauge the level of absurdity with this situation. I'm not going to name any names. It's not my place. However, I watched a new white belt get very seriously injured (compression fracture of the T6-T7) by another competitor at a small competition. The injured white belt was a true novice with a few months of experience and entered the <6 month novice white belt division. The other party was also wearing a white belt, but wasn't moving like one and performed a technical judo throw that caused the injury. It turns out that while this 'white belt' was technically a 'white belt' in BJJ, they also held a third degree black belt in judo and had international level judo competition experience including a national judo championship and a bronze medal at the Judo Pan Ams. When confronted the judoka claimed 'you compete at the belt you are given by your instructor' and 'I haven't done Judo in years' as justification for competing in the white belt division. The tournament rules are not explicit like IBJJF rules which say 'No Judo BBs in the white belt division.' Am I completely off base in thinking that this should never have happened?
Just out of curiosity, are you planning on acting on this situation, or is this just something you'll talk with your friends about?
Fwiw, please don't ask me to be expert witness for a trial. The answer is no... UNLESS YOU COMMIT NOW TO PURCHASING MY ULTIMATE GUIDE TO LEVELING UP YOUR SLOPPY GAME IN MERELY DAYS!!!!
lol jk... kinda..
If this guy is a 3rd degree bb in judo, then he probably shouldn't have entered in the novice division, and you are correct in your understanding that ibjjf wouldn't allow this.
That being said, my experience, at least in my geographic region, is that:
a) everyone competes in the same division in many judo tournaments; it's not uncommon to see strict beginners competing with 3rd degree bbs, especially in the masters or women's divisions.
b) most judo guys suck on the ground, and they know it. Most of them, anyway. Therefore, many of these guys will enter into divisions they deem appropriate, based on what they understand about bjj, but in reality, they might not be in the correct division.
I think this tends to happen in smaller, less- organized tournaments a lot, unfortunately. Even in the bigger, unregulated tournaments, I wouldn't say this would be uncommon, at least in my area.
Fwiw, please don't ask me to be expert witness for a trial. The answer is no... UNLESS YOU COMMIT NOW TO PURCHASING MY ULTIMATE GUIDE TO LEVELING UP YOUR SLOPPY GAME IN MERELY DAYS!!!!
lol jk... kinda..
If this guy is a 3rd degree bb in judo, then he probably shouldn't have entered in the novice division, and you are correct in your understanding that ibjjf wouldn't allow this.
That being said, my experience, at least in my geographic region, is that:
a) everyone competes in the same division in many judo tournaments; it's not uncommon to see strict beginners competing with 3rd degree bbs, especially in the masters or women's divisions.
b) most judo guys suck on the ground, and they know it. Most of them, anyway. Therefore, many of these guys will enter into divisions they deem appropriate, based on what they understand about bjj, but in reality, they might not be in the correct division.
I think this tends to happen in smaller, less- organized tournaments a lot, unfortunately. Even in the bigger, unregulated tournaments, I wouldn't say this would be uncommon, at least in my area.
DBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I heard about this. Curious to see what throw she did.
DCBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
My understanding is that a Judo BB should compete in a blue belt division.
Their take downs are always better and, based on experience, their arm bars and triangles are pretty dangerous. I mean that quite literally, slapped on hard and fast to finish the match.
I have even heard of some academies, promoting Judo BBs to blue immediately... Personally I think there should be some "time served" as an absolute minimum requirement in this situation.
To answer your question, no I don't think this should have happened.
Their take downs are always better and, based on experience, their arm bars and triangles are pretty dangerous. I mean that quite literally, slapped on hard and fast to finish the match.
I have even heard of some academies, promoting Judo BBs to blue immediately... Personally I think there should be some "time served" as an absolute minimum requirement in this situation.
To answer your question, no I don't think this should have happened.
CBBrown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
a) everyone competes in the same division in many judo tournaments; it's not uncommon to see strict beginners competing with 3rd degree bbs, especially in the masters or women's divisions.
Fun fact. In Judo tournaments,at least in Germany, white belts aren't allowed to compete for safety reasons. You have to have passed at least the second grade before you're allowed to compete. This is normally a time period of 6 months to a year.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Fun fact. In Judo tournaments,at least in Germany, white belts aren't allowed to compete for safety reasons. You have to have passed at least the second grade before you're allowed to compete. This is normally a time period of 6 months to a year.
This is crazy. Do they allow for exceptions to this rule? I couldn't imagine being an ex-wrestler, or something like a bjj purple belt, for example, and not being allowed to compete in pretty much any grappling event, because of a lack of experience.
Edit: but then again, how many gyms in Germany are getting sued for $46m?
Edit: but then again, how many gyms in Germany are getting sued for $46m?
Edited 3 year(s) ago
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
A first-degree (shodan) judo black belt in the United States is typically someone who has been training five or more years, and there is usually a minimum time in grade of 1-2 years between 1st/2nd dan and 2-4 years between 2nd/3rd dan. Thus, the guy in question has probably been grappling for around 8–11 years. I would put him in at least the blue belt division as Dave Cork suggests above.
Most judo tournaments that I have attended have broken competitors into two categories: beginners (white through green belt, or 6th–4th kyu) and advanced (blue/purple/brown and black belts, or 3rd–1st kyu along with 1st dan and higher). Really big tournaments will often separate 3rd–1st kyu from the black belts to make things fairer. I did coach one white belt a few years ago who took gold in the beginner’s division and silver in the advanced division, but it’s not normal for a white belt to compete with black belts (and this guy was a pro MMA fighter).
I’m a nidan in judo and while I generally agree with the assessment that judo guys have inferior groundwork compared to BJJ practitioners, they do have good pins (and escapes) and explosive submissions. Their guard work (including passing) is usually terrible because the judo ruleset doesn’t favor it, and they often give up their backs to avoid getting pinned. However, Judo black belts should be able to hang with BJJ blue belts overall.
Most judo tournaments that I have attended have broken competitors into two categories: beginners (white through green belt, or 6th–4th kyu) and advanced (blue/purple/brown and black belts, or 3rd–1st kyu along with 1st dan and higher). Really big tournaments will often separate 3rd–1st kyu from the black belts to make things fairer. I did coach one white belt a few years ago who took gold in the beginner’s division and silver in the advanced division, but it’s not normal for a white belt to compete with black belts (and this guy was a pro MMA fighter).
I’m a nidan in judo and while I generally agree with the assessment that judo guys have inferior groundwork compared to BJJ practitioners, they do have good pins (and escapes) and explosive submissions. Their guard work (including passing) is usually terrible because the judo ruleset doesn’t favor it, and they often give up their backs to avoid getting pinned. However, Judo black belts should be able to hang with BJJ blue belts overall.
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
In the finnish BJJ federation black belts in judo, wrestlers with national titles or equivalent level MMA guys aren't allowed in the white belt divisions. I think it's a good system that promotes safety and makes sandbagging a bit harder.
CBBrown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
This is crazy. Do they allow for exceptions to this rule? I couldn't imagine being an ex-wrestler, or something like a bjj purple belt, for example, and not being allowed to compete in pretty much any grappling event, because of a lack of experience.
The general Idea is that people with practical experience or rank in other Grappling systems would be promoted more quickly. Having said that, this was not my actual experience. I spent something like a year and a half until getting to the second rank.
But Judo here is also really more focused on kids and adolescents. If you're older they don't really take you that seriously. They'll train you, but their priority is the kids classes.
But Judo here is also really more focused on kids and adolescents. If you're older they don't really take you that seriously. They'll train you, but their priority is the kids classes.
TPBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
In the finnish BJJ federation black belts in judo, wrestlers with national titles or equivalent level MMA guys aren't allowed in the white belt divisions. I think it's a good system that promotes safety and makes sandbagging a bit harder.
In the FBJJF, they can also just wear a blue belt for the comps, although they have not been officially graduated as BJJ blues. You can also just decide to compete at blue instead of white, but then you can't revert back to white anymore (works only for blue, you can't compete up in any of the higher ranks).
Whereas I understand that in the IBJJF, one is expected to actually earn the BJJ blue belt to compete in the blue belt division, even if you are a judo black belt, MMA fighter etc and can't enter as a white belt.
Whereas I understand that in the IBJJF, one is expected to actually earn the BJJ blue belt to compete in the blue belt division, even if you are a judo black belt, MMA fighter etc and can't enter as a white belt.
TPBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Am I completely off base in thinking that this should never have happened?
Considering the incident itself, I'm not convinced that it's the "industry standard" (;)) for BJJ blue belts to be able perform safe breakfalls off technical judo throws... so this accident very likely could've also occurred in the blue belt division.
That said, completely ridiculous for a person of her grappling pedigree to compete in a <6 month experience division.
That said, completely ridiculous for a person of her grappling pedigree to compete in a <6 month experience division.
CBBrown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
That said, completely ridiculous for a person of her grappling pedigree to compete in a <6 month experience division.
I couldn't agree more. How much you want to bet he's bragging about how he won a BJJ tournament with only his judo skills. 🤪🤪🤪🤪
RLBlue beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Whereas I understand that in the IBJJF, one is expected to actually earn the BJJ blue belt to compete in the blue belt division...
First that comes to mind is Michael Pixley (PSF, a former NCAA and NAIA champion wrestler) winning blue belt IBJJF no-gi worlds (in 2021) as a white belt. Video can be found on youtube. Not the most beautiful jiu-jitsu but it is what it is.
BBPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Just trying to gauge the level of absurdity with this situation. I'm not going to name any names or locations. However, I watched a new white belt get very seriously injured (compression fracture of the T6-T7) by another competitor at a small competition. The injured white belt was a true novice with a few months of experience and entered the <6 month novice white belt division. The other party was also wearing a white belt, but wasn't moving like one and performed a technical judo throw that caused the injury. It turns out that while this 'white belt' was technically a 'white belt' in BJJ, they also held a third degree black belt in judo and had international level judo competition experience including a national judo championship and a bronze medal at the Judo Pan Ams. When confronted the judoka claimed 'you compete at the belt you are given by your instructor' and 'I haven't done Judo in years' as justification for competing in the white belt division. The tournament rules are not explicit like IBJJF rules which say 'No Judo BBs in the white belt division.' Am I completely off base in thinking that this should never have happened?
Should have never happened. Any degree of wrestling, judo, or any other grappling art shouldn't compete at beginner white belt. I could see white belt intermediate at the minimum with some experience to other arts; but a black belt in any other grappling art should have to start at at least blue belt.
BBenOP
Brown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Considering the incident itself, I'm not convinced that it's the 'industry standard' (;)) for BJJ blue belts to be able perform safe breakfalls off technical judo throws... so this accident very likely could've also occurred in the blue belt division. That said, completely ridiculous for a person of her grappling pedigree to compete in a <6 month experience division.
That's what upsets me the most. This wasn't some mcdojo Judo club black belt. This was someone who has medaled 9 times in international tournaments and placed bronze at the Pan Americans.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I just bring some students for their first competition this year as white belt, after like six month of training two or three times per week. They face some guys there who train and compete every month for four or five years but still in the white belt division. It's the same as your judo guy, A SHAME. You must be a coward to do that, like a pro boxer Who go compete with beginners.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I have seen this since the early days of grappling. My theory on competition is to test yourself not collect medals. Sandbagging is a natural reaction to the win at all cost mentality many people have.
I always felt it was better to finish last in the advanced division than first in the novice.
Unfortunatly we live in a world where men who can't win as men just become women in order to win
I always felt it was better to finish last in the advanced division than first in the novice.
Unfortunatly we live in a world where men who can't win as men just become women in order to win
Edited 3 year(s) ago
BBPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I have seen this since the early days of grappling. My theory on competition is to test yourself not collect medals. Sandbagging is a natural reaction to the win at all cost mentality many people have. I always felt it was better to finish last in the advanced division than first in the novice
I always sign up for nogi expert hoping to lure a random ultra heavy black belt in. But even if they pop up in my bracket they are never there on comp day :(
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I always sign up for nogi expert hoping to lure a random ultra heavy black belt in. But even if they pop up in my bracket they are never there on comp day :(
Bane of my existence having guys in my bracket no show. I registered for NAGA in June just to get back out there a little bit and I am around 215 to 220 and 60 years old half the time to get matches end up doing adult ultra heavy because no one really shows
ADBrown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I would put the some of the blame on his coach, if he had one. Some coaches hold the blue belt back like it is a red belt or something. Many coaches also act like winning in white belt division is something to brag about.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I would put the some of the blame on his coach, if he had one. Some coaches hold the blue belt back like it is a red belt or something. Many coaches also act like winning in white belt division is something to brag about.
I have seen a lot of this coaches who allow their guys to sandbag in order to collect medals
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Then the coach, feel fucking good because he made the 1st place for team medals, with white and blue belt who train train for 6 or 7 years already.
The most overated sentence in BJJ is " No Ego when you step on the mat" this is, 90% of the time, pure bullshit. When people start to get purple or up they start in huge majority to hide themselves, don't compete, don't face lower belt who seems strong, but in the same time didnt't forget to put some story of your bjj training on Instagram....
I got some talented young guys in the gym, i could let them in white belt ,but when they get some basics enough to survive, i bring them to blue, no interest to win for years the novice class.
The most overated sentence in BJJ is " No Ego when you step on the mat" this is, 90% of the time, pure bullshit. When people start to get purple or up they start in huge majority to hide themselves, don't compete, don't face lower belt who seems strong, but in the same time didnt't forget to put some story of your bjj training on Instagram....
I got some talented young guys in the gym, i could let them in white belt ,but when they get some basics enough to survive, i bring them to blue, no interest to win for years the novice class.
JEBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
How is such an advanced judo player not able to do a throw without injuring their opponent?? If the injury was because of the ground skills it would be more logical.
I remember years ago here in the Netherlands an Olympic judoka also started doing BJJ but when he competed he started at purple which seems more accurate than pretending you know nothing about grappling arts.
I remember years ago here in the Netherlands an Olympic judoka also started doing BJJ but when he competed he started at purple which seems more accurate than pretending you know nothing about grappling arts.
