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Leg locks training
3 year(s) ago • 9085 views • 86 replies
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Hi guys,
I just had some training with lot of people attacking mostly leglocks and even if i didn't tap or be caught deep inside, i felt pain on my ligaments. Over the years i saw many people stop to train due to knee injury, and it was way before all those daily leglocks so, my question is, did we burn the caddle by both sites or is it sometimes better to put dangerous techniques away or training those less to stay longer in the game ?
I've been in martial arts for 32 years and i want ton stay for 30 more on yhe mat at least so i consider maybe asking my partner to avoid some dangerous stuff...
What do you think about it and did someone else feel the same ?
Hi guys,
I just had some training with lot of people attacking mostly leglocks and even if i didn't tap or be caught deep inside, i felt pain on my ligaments. Over the years i saw many people stop to train due to knee injury, and it was way before all those daily leglocks so, my question is, did we burn the caddle by both sites or is it sometimes better to put dangerous techniques away or training those less to stay longer in the game ?
I've been in martial arts for 32 years and i want ton stay for 30 more on yhe mat at least so i consider maybe asking my partner to avoid some dangerous stuff...
What do you think about it and did someone else feel the same ?
JPBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
My joints feel like shit! Arthritis in so many joints! I've been involved in Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling since 1994. It wrecked my body! I would say don't ignore it. Just tap early! It's no more dangerous than any other submission. What makes it dangerous is the lack of knowledge and awareness. We spend years on every other submission but leg locks so our awareness of all other submissions is much higher. The more knowledge, the more experience and awareness will only make leg locks safer, less painful, and less dangerous.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
My joints feel like shit! Arthritis in so many joints! I've been involved in Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling since 1994. It wrecked my body! I would say don't ignore it. Just tap early! It's no more dangerous than any other submission. What makes it dangerous is the lack of knowledge and awareness. We spend years on every other submission but leg locks so our awareness of all other submissions is much higher. The more knowledge, the more experience and awareness will only make leg locks safer, less painful, and less dangerous.
I use to train leglocks for very long time as well, but it's not about defending correctly, it's more the small joints manipulations every roll who can cause long therm damage i think, like all your partners doing wrist locks everytime, you gonna become good to defend it but, you wrist joints would be on constant pressure. What i'm traying to say is that, being attacking on every part of your body with targets changing will let you with less injuries than being attacking always on the same part
CBBrown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I have rolled with leg locks in every nogi session for at least 3 years and I've been focusing on them every day for almost a year without issue. A lot of it is proper training and having training partners who know how to work with them. I've honestly been injured more often and more severely by armbards and kimuras than I have with leg locks.
BLBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I love leg locks. I can't imagine training without them. Sure I have been injured however when I was injured it was due to my own ego. I would get into a battle of wills and maybe I get the submission but I would pay for it later. I'm 41 now and if someone gets a leg lock on me, I tend to tap pretty early. I think the thing that makes Jiu Jitsu so effective is how liberal the rules are. In other words, Jiu Jitsu allows much more than other grappling Arts. As a result Jiu Jitsu has less blind spots.
JPBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I use to train leglocks for very long time as well, but it's not about defending correctly, it's more the small joints manipulations every roll who can cause long therm damage i think, like all your partners doing wrist locks everytime, you gonna become good to defend it but, you wrist joints would be on constant pressure. What i'm traying to say is that, being attacking on every part of your body with targets changing will let you with less injuries than being attacking always on the same part
That makes sense. If that's the case then, avoid every submission then. If it's not your legs it will be another joint being attack and over used. You're going to take pressure to the body one way or another. If it's not from a submission, it will be from top pressure. I would say, to address your concern, work on avoiding the compromising positions that place risk on the joints you want to protect.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Leg locks don't work.
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I’m almost 47 and I have been training in multiple martial arts systems since I was 19, so I have a lot of injuries, including permanent spinal issues and a bad shoulder. To stay healthy, I do the following things:
(1) I don’t do the more dangerous techniques (e.g., neck cranks or heel hooks) in sparring with white belts or blue belts. I’ll let experienced guys use those techniques on me because they have the patience and sensitivity to put the submissions on slowly and give me plenty of time to tap. For heel hooks, my partners and I focus on preventing the submission rather than trying to get out of it after it’s on. As an older guy, I have enough intellectual honesty and humility to realize when I’m caught and tap out before my partner has to actually apply any real pressure to my knee.
(2) I ask everybody before we roll if they have any injuries I need to watch out for. We then make a gentlemen’s/ladies’ agreement to either not apply submissions to that area (for serious issues) or to put submission on slowly enough that there is plenty of time to tap (for less serious issues). If my shoulder is having a good day, I just ask my partner to apply shoulder locks slowly. If it’s a bad day, I might ask them to not lock that shoulder at all (and I’ll reciprocate by not applying any shoulder locks to their right shoulder to keep things fair).
(3) I try to warm up and stretch extensively before each training session. If my knees are giving me trouble, I’ll wear neoprene knee braces to keep the joints warm and provide a bit of external support (and, for no gi, to let my training partners know that my knees are having issues). Shoulder braces don’t provide much actual support, but I sometimes wear one just so that my sparring partners will remember which one is bad.
(1) I don’t do the more dangerous techniques (e.g., neck cranks or heel hooks) in sparring with white belts or blue belts. I’ll let experienced guys use those techniques on me because they have the patience and sensitivity to put the submissions on slowly and give me plenty of time to tap. For heel hooks, my partners and I focus on preventing the submission rather than trying to get out of it after it’s on. As an older guy, I have enough intellectual honesty and humility to realize when I’m caught and tap out before my partner has to actually apply any real pressure to my knee.
(2) I ask everybody before we roll if they have any injuries I need to watch out for. We then make a gentlemen’s/ladies’ agreement to either not apply submissions to that area (for serious issues) or to put submission on slowly enough that there is plenty of time to tap (for less serious issues). If my shoulder is having a good day, I just ask my partner to apply shoulder locks slowly. If it’s a bad day, I might ask them to not lock that shoulder at all (and I’ll reciprocate by not applying any shoulder locks to their right shoulder to keep things fair).
(3) I try to warm up and stretch extensively before each training session. If my knees are giving me trouble, I’ll wear neoprene knee braces to keep the joints warm and provide a bit of external support (and, for no gi, to let my training partners know that my knees are having issues). Shoulder braces don’t provide much actual support, but I sometimes wear one just so that my sparring partners will remember which one is bad.
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SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Yep, I avoid leglocks as much as possible. I will throw in a kneebar occasionally, but other than that, the only time I do anything related to leglocks is defending them. It's very important to be aware of the defence, but I'm perfectly happy to dispense entirely with attacking things like straight footlocks, toeholds etc.
The injury risk is also why I don't go anywhere near neck cranks, I avoid inverting and I try to keep the intensity of my sparring low in general, plus I'm super picky about who I roll with. I've been in martial arts since the early 1990s, my training is all geared around longevity.
The injury risk is also why I don't go anywhere near neck cranks, I avoid inverting and I try to keep the intensity of my sparring low in general, plus I'm super picky about who I roll with. I've been in martial arts since the early 1990s, my training is all geared around longevity.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I have no meniscus left in either knee. Removed in surgeries from wear and tear / injuries due to leg locks. At this point, my knees are basically bone on bone, so any rotational pressure on them (/walking on sand/running/etc.) will cause instant inflammation and days of pain. I came to a crossroad where I had to chose between stop doing (=receiving) twisting leg locks or stop doing Jiu Jitsu. I put in my time; did a good 15 years of heelhooks and toe holds, but I am paying the price today 😢
TPBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
To get proficient in today's leglocking game, one has to spend a significant amount in the leg entanglements trying & figuring out different things. Even without practicing the finishing mechanics too much, I'm sure just this puts strain on the joints and ligaments (mostly the knee, which is pretty awfully designed joint anyway). At least my clumsy limbs tend to get stuck and twisted in the more advanced configurations without anybody doing anything wrong or very dangerous per se.
For example, I tore my LCL in a roll during an open mat, when we were both sitting on our asses in ashi, and my partner simply tilted his legs suddenly to the side. No reaping or nothing close to a submission, just my leg was stuck enough to his legs, that the hip turn caused the knee to pop because I reacted to move with it half a second too late.
I still like to train and roll with leglocks, but don't spend extended times with them. (I'm completely missing the ACL in my other knee now... not gone due to leglock injruy btw.) Similarly, probably training just armbar attack/defense EBI overtime Spiderweb style a lot, would cause the elbow to get fucked up in a bit.
For example, I tore my LCL in a roll during an open mat, when we were both sitting on our asses in ashi, and my partner simply tilted his legs suddenly to the side. No reaping or nothing close to a submission, just my leg was stuck enough to his legs, that the hip turn caused the knee to pop because I reacted to move with it half a second too late.
I still like to train and roll with leglocks, but don't spend extended times with them. (I'm completely missing the ACL in my other knee now... not gone due to leglock injruy btw.) Similarly, probably training just armbar attack/defense EBI overtime Spiderweb style a lot, would cause the elbow to get fucked up in a bit.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
DBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I've had both my ACLs reconstructed. Even drilling leg lock entanglements hurts. Hell, even using de la Riva hurts. So yeah, no more leg locks for me. And yes, I do think we are burning the candle at both ends. Almost all my friends who compete no gi a lot have at some point torn knee ligaments now.
BSBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I put in my time; did a good 15 years of heelhooks and toe holds, but I am paying the price today 😢
This could have been pulled from the pages of my diary. Painfully familiar
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I have always done leglocks and have one knee that needs complete reconstruction.
Lets face it combat sports are tough on the body. A lot of Judo guys and wrestlers I am friends with there knees and shoulders are shot. I consider myself a striker first and that has a whole other set of issues.
Like any training if you do it with CONTROL injuries can be minimized with leg locks.
Also tap early and often it's training NOT winning. I always say the difference between a Black belt and a white is a couple million taps
Lets face it combat sports are tough on the body. A lot of Judo guys and wrestlers I am friends with there knees and shoulders are shot. I consider myself a striker first and that has a whole other set of issues.
Like any training if you do it with CONTROL injuries can be minimized with leg locks.
Also tap early and often it's training NOT winning. I always say the difference between a Black belt and a white is a couple million taps
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Also tap early and often it's training NOT winning. I always say the difference between a Black belt and a white is a couple million taps
This is great!
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I have always done leglocks and have one knee that needs complete reconstruction. Lets face it combat sports are tough on the body. A lot of Judo guys and wrestlers I am friends with there knees and shoulders are shot. I consider myself a striker first and that has a whole other set of issues. Like any training if you do it with CONTROL injuries can be minimized with leg locks. Also tap early and often it's training NOT winning. I always say the difference between a Black belt and a white is a couple million taps
Great post Philip
JJBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
The only thing that is dangerous is not knowing when your in danger or bad training partners.
If your worried about your knees or any injury in general training in the GI greatly reduces your chance of injury. Everything is much slower and less knee related leg locks. You can use grips to create frames and distance from pretty much anywhere.
Gi is pick your own adventure. While Nogi you often don't have a choice but to remove space and use more explosive energy at times which greatly increase your chance of injury especially against anyone with less experience or a desire to win at all cost for some reason.
My knees will take damage just from doing wrestling related warmups if I am not careful. I'd rather have someone attack me full speed straight into a full spar where I can control the situation at my pace then be forced to do "warmups" that actually do more damage to my body than my shitty ass mattress does.
In reality arm locks are far more dangerous in practice as people are more reckless with them. While leg locks really should only be a risk of damage during a Nogi competition.
If it makes anyone feel better every MMA event I have ever been to basically someone heel hooked somebody and still lost by getting their face smashed in. The guy that won after getting heel hooked may or may not have needed surgery but still won the fight. That reason alone I don't take most leg locks all that seriously. Just train them for fun. No reason to train them like it's for ADCC.
If your worried about your knees or any injury in general training in the GI greatly reduces your chance of injury. Everything is much slower and less knee related leg locks. You can use grips to create frames and distance from pretty much anywhere.
Gi is pick your own adventure. While Nogi you often don't have a choice but to remove space and use more explosive energy at times which greatly increase your chance of injury especially against anyone with less experience or a desire to win at all cost for some reason.
My knees will take damage just from doing wrestling related warmups if I am not careful. I'd rather have someone attack me full speed straight into a full spar where I can control the situation at my pace then be forced to do "warmups" that actually do more damage to my body than my shitty ass mattress does.
In reality arm locks are far more dangerous in practice as people are more reckless with them. While leg locks really should only be a risk of damage during a Nogi competition.
If it makes anyone feel better every MMA event I have ever been to basically someone heel hooked somebody and still lost by getting their face smashed in. The guy that won after getting heel hooked may or may not have needed surgery but still won the fight. That reason alone I don't take most leg locks all that seriously. Just train them for fun. No reason to train them like it's for ADCC.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
In reality arm locks are far more dangerous in practice as people are more reckless with them.
I don't know a lot of people in Jiu Jitsu who had elbow surgery. Actually none.
Knees on the other hand...
Knees on the other hand...
JJBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I don't know a lot of people in Jiu Jitsu who had elbow surgery. Actually none. Knees on the other hand...
That may be true.
But once your shoulder is messed up your basically fucked. It will never be the same. Not to say that knees will be the same but you will never be able to lift heavy weights again.
I would argue people take way more minor and major damage to elbows and shoulders than knees. It's just they often times don't get surgery. They just sort of deal with it.
My knees are bad. But basically all of my injuries in jiu-jitsu are related to my arms. I haven't had any surgeries.
Kimura is by farm the most devastating submission. People often times will fight basic armbars or americanas way longer than they should especially when they first start. I would for sure say Armlocks are for more dangerous for beginners than anything else. As a lot of beginners will just rip them without any control and the person on the receiving end really doesn't understand how much danger that they are in. While most people won't rip leg locks on beginners.
More people will elect for knee surgery as well. Probably half of the people over 30 that have done jiu jitsu for more than 5 years need shoulder surgery but just deal with it and choose not get it as it's a more complicated surgery than knee surgery and the benefit/success rate is less.
But once your shoulder is messed up your basically fucked. It will never be the same. Not to say that knees will be the same but you will never be able to lift heavy weights again.
I would argue people take way more minor and major damage to elbows and shoulders than knees. It's just they often times don't get surgery. They just sort of deal with it.
My knees are bad. But basically all of my injuries in jiu-jitsu are related to my arms. I haven't had any surgeries.
Kimura is by farm the most devastating submission. People often times will fight basic armbars or americanas way longer than they should especially when they first start. I would for sure say Armlocks are for more dangerous for beginners than anything else. As a lot of beginners will just rip them without any control and the person on the receiving end really doesn't understand how much danger that they are in. While most people won't rip leg locks on beginners.
More people will elect for knee surgery as well. Probably half of the people over 30 that have done jiu jitsu for more than 5 years need shoulder surgery but just deal with it and choose not get it as it's a more complicated surgery than knee surgery and the benefit/success rate is less.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
DBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I don't know a lot of people in Jiu Jitsu who had elbow surgery. Actually none. Knees on the other hand...
I've had one. If surgeons gave out frequent flyer miles, I'd be all set lol.
TMBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Hi guys, I just had some training with lot of people attacking mostly leglocks and even if i didn't tap or be caught deep inside, i felt pain on my ligaments. Over the years i saw many people stop to train due to knee injury, and it was way before all those daily leglocks so, my question is, did we burn the caddle by both sites or is it sometimes better to put dangerous techniques away or training those less to stay longer in the game ? I've been in martial arts for 32 years and i want ton stay for 30 more on yhe mat at least so i consider maybe asking my partner to avoid some dangerous stuff... What do you think about it and did someone else feel the same ?
I’ve been training leg locks since I was a blue belt but in a very playful and cautious manner. To this day it’s all based on a catch and release basis to prevent injury both to myself and my partner. Working the technique is much more important to me then finishing the submission itself due to the severity leglocks posses. I would rather lightly hold the position let my partner work the escapes and defences and visa-versa. To this day I still implement leg locks on a consistent basis again all based around catch and release. The last thing I would ever want is to get hurt or hurt somebody because of an overinflated ego.
JVBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I have no meniscus left in either knee. Removed in surgeries from wear and tear / injuries due to leg locks. At this point, my knees are basically bone on bone, so any rotational pressure on them (/walking on sand/running/etc.) will cause instant inflammation and days of pain. I came to a crossroad where I had to chose between stop doing (=receiving) twisting leg locks or stop doing Jiu Jitsu. I put in my time; did a good 15 years of heelhooks and toe holds, but I am paying the price today 😢
This. It’s not worth it. Also, if you do legs locks in a street situation you will get your face stomped into the pavement. I train for self-defense, not to tap other Jiu-jitsu guys.
JJBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
This. It’s not worth it. Also, if you do legs locks in a street situation you will get your face stomped into the pavement. I train for self-defense, not to tap other Jiu-jitsu guys.
I train for sport I guess even though it's more of just a brain exercise to me as I think training for self defense is mostly silly. The reality is your personality and judgement is your best self defense. Don't put yourself in bad situations and if in one be willing to make fun of yourself.
With that being said I don't even play guard nearly as much as I use to simply not to take as much damage on my knees and hips let alone wild west leg lock showdowns that are not even that fun to me. If your amazing at everything else then sure dick around with leg locks if you want I just find it boring. I'll straight ankle lock white/blue belts just to teach them to stop giving me their damn foot and that's about it or maybe a rolling calf slicer when bored. Those are kinda fun and some random knee bars from weird situations.
Ok ok I sometimes like leg locks that are not twisting on the knee in practice scenarios where people are going at normal speeds. Heel hooking with intense purpose not so much.
With that being said I don't even play guard nearly as much as I use to simply not to take as much damage on my knees and hips let alone wild west leg lock showdowns that are not even that fun to me. If your amazing at everything else then sure dick around with leg locks if you want I just find it boring. I'll straight ankle lock white/blue belts just to teach them to stop giving me their damn foot and that's about it or maybe a rolling calf slicer when bored. Those are kinda fun and some random knee bars from weird situations.
Ok ok I sometimes like leg locks that are not twisting on the knee in practice scenarios where people are going at normal speeds. Heel hooking with intense purpose not so much.
ARBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I still play leggy locky, but I rarely will finish a twisting lock. I usually just make eye contact and let go. I'll finish knee bahs and compressions. I feel like a knee bah hurts before injury, while a twisting lock doesn't really hurt and then all of a sudden you're effed. I was lucky enough to start training them right from white belt. That being said, I have had 8 knee surgeries (4 on each), including 2 total reconstructions. I'm in pain quite often. I can't run on the road anymore. Squatting sucks, and sitting on my knees is agony. I'm happy to train leg locks if I trust you. If I don't, I usually tap as soon as control is achieved. I really don't want to go under the knife again until it's time for replacement.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I am just curious how the other member here think.
Do you believe leglocks are inherently more dangerous or is it poor training protocols and lack of knowledge that leads to the negative view of leg locks?
Do you believe leglocks are inherently more dangerous or is it poor training protocols and lack of knowledge that leads to the negative view of leg locks?
TMBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I am just curious how the other member here think. Do you believe leglocks are inherently more dangerous or is it poor training protocols and lack of knowledge that leads to the negative view of leg locks?
I believe it is lack of knowledge and poor communication between instructors to students that can lead to injuries.
JJBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Twisting Knee locks are inherently more dangerous.
DBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Twisting Knee locks are inherently more dangerous.
Agreed. Injuries happen too fast when applied.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Agreed. Injuries happen too fast when applied.
This one is on both sides of equation.. Any submission is dangerous when applied without control (too hard or too fast).
Most of the injuries I have seen with leglocks have been based on bad training and not the lock itself
Most of the injuries I have seen with leglocks have been based on bad training and not the lock itself
JJBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
This one is on both sides of equation.. Any submission is dangerous when applied without control (too hard or too fast). Most of the injuries I have seen with leglocks have been based on bad training and not the lock itself
Most other leg locks are fine with the exception of someone Snatching an estima lock.
It's just that twisting knee locks are more dangerous. End of story. Regardless of how much you train and are experienced in the field of leg locks.
So many black belts and high level competition guys all end up ripping their knees. They have plenty of experience. It's not the experience. It's other factors at play.
Also for example I can rip someone's arm off with a Kimura but I never do I can feel the pressure. I can feel the pressure with most joint locks. With a twisting knee lock I can not really feel the pressure when I am applying the submission. Almost every submission I do I can tell where my opponents point of injury is.
It's just that twisting knee locks are more dangerous. End of story. Regardless of how much you train and are experienced in the field of leg locks.
So many black belts and high level competition guys all end up ripping their knees. They have plenty of experience. It's not the experience. It's other factors at play.
Also for example I can rip someone's arm off with a Kimura but I never do I can feel the pressure. I can feel the pressure with most joint locks. With a twisting knee lock I can not really feel the pressure when I am applying the submission. Almost every submission I do I can tell where my opponents point of injury is.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
