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Athletes who are above their rank.

3 year(s) ago • 5006 views • 20 replies

Corey Hebert
Corey Hebert
Brown beltVerified18 forum posts1515/700
3 year(s) ago
Professors, from a belt perspective, how do deal with athletes who may be new to BJJ, but are extremely advanced in grappling arts. We have two guys that started BJJ about a year ago. I only give their stats to make the point. One is 230, a former 3 time state wrestling champion, who continued to coach and train with his kids. With less then 6 month of BJJ, he won four matches and almost podiumed at Master Worlds (master 1 blue belt). The other is 210, was a US Olympic power lifter and team USA coach who holds/held the US record in the snatch in his weight class. He is also a Judo black belt who trained with team USA.

You can’t make this up. People who don’t know them get upset when they get smashed and accuse them and our professor of sand bagging. I understand that this is an alternative to IBJJF but we still compete, and these guys don’t meet the time in requirements to be promoted.

How do you deal with situations like this? Do you promote them if they are not worried about IBJJF? Do you have time in requirements for belts?
Vovis
Vovis
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified976 forum posts9215/1000
3 year(s) ago
As far as the guy that's a judo blackbelt, The best of my recollection a judo blackbelt can't compete as a whitebelt in IBJJF, they can only compete as a bluebelt. I know 2 blackbelts in judo who were given bluebelt right away. As for wrestlers that's a tougher one to answer, because they don't like to be on there back, and need to learn a guard game. Some wrestlers commit to learning and others don't and that slows their progression in jiu-jitsu.
Corey Hebert
Corey HebertOP
Brown beltVerified18 forum posts1515/700
3 year(s) ago
As far as the guy that's a judo blackbelt, The best of my recollection a judo blackbelt can't compete as a whitebelt in IBJJF, they can only compete as a bluebelt. I know 2 blackbelts in judo who were given bluebelt right away. As for wrestlers that's a tougher one to answer, because they don't like to be on there back, and need to learn a guard game. Some wrestlers commit to learning and others don't and that slows their progression in jiu-jitsu.
Thank you for the response. The funny thing is that the wrestler has a crazy lapel guard from his back and hates NoGi. He embraced he different styles of grappling. Both were promoted to blue belt with in a few months. The reality is that they are both high brown to black belt level with a blue strap.
Vovis
Vovis
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified976 forum posts9215/1000
3 year(s) ago
There is still a lot of technique for them to learn. It's not just about their athletic grappling abilities, understanding why a technique work, not just for them, but for the old guy in the corner that isn't athletic anymore. There's a lot that goes into what your professor looks a for each belt rank. It's not only about being able to smash others.
Bobby McMasters
Bobby McMasters
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1272 forum posts12800/1000
3 year(s) ago
Professors, from a belt perspective, how do deal with athletes who may be new to BJJ, but are extremely advanced in grappling arts.
Have they cleaned out absolutely everyone in their divisions and won the world championships, and now there's nobody else to pose a challenge to them?

My opinion: there's really no rush. They will never be blue belts again, so let them have their glory.

I have a couple blue belts at my gym who could probably beat me in competition. My excuse, of course, is that I'm old and gimpy, but, nonetheless, I would probably lose to them.

Does this mean they should be promoted to black belt, or that I should be demoted? I don't think so.

Jiu-jitsu takes a long time to fully sink in. It takes a certain degree of maturity, and requires the ups and downs that only come with time.

You're not limiting these guys by holding them back, but rather, helping to enrich their experience.

Just my opinion, of course!
Bren Nolan
Bren Nolan
Purple beltVerified144 forum posts1460/400
3 year(s) ago
People who don’t know them get upset when they get smashed and accuse them and our professor of sand bagging. I understand that this is an alternative to IBJJF but we still compete, and these guys don’t meet the time in requirements to be promoted. How do you deal with situations like this? Do you promote them if they are not worried about IBJJF? Do you have time in requirements for belts?
Are they beating people with a well rounded Jiu Jitsu techniques or with wrestling/judo.

If they latter, I see no conflict in them being able to win matches against higher ranked opponents in jiujitsu, despite their overall skills being less well rounded. While Judo (and wrestling) are sub-skills of jiujitus. I don't think being disproportionately skilled at either is sufficient to be award a purple+ belt. Blue is probably ok for competition purposes.
Bren Nolan
Bren Nolan
Purple beltVerified144 forum posts1460/400
3 year(s) ago
As far as the guy that's a judo blackbelt, The best of my recollection a judo blackbelt can't compete as a whitebelt in IBJJF, they can only compete as a bluebelt.
Not quite. But that's a common misconception. A judo blackbelt is not automatically bumped to blue belt. It's true that they can't compete at whitebelt, but they also can't compete at bluebelt unless they are actually a bluebelt in BJJ. Hence the guys insta-promoted.
Also applies to high level wrestling or MMA experience.
R. David Gonzalez
R. David Gonzalez
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4764 forum posts34325/1000
3 year(s) ago
Have they cleaned out absolutely everyone in their divisions and won the world championships, and now there's nobody else to pose a challenge to them? My opinion: there's really no rush. They will never be blue belts again, so let them have their glory. I have a couple blue belts at my gym who could probably beat me in competition. My excuse, of course, is that I'm old and gimpy, but, nonetheless, I would probably lose to them. Does this mean they should be promoted to black belt, or that I should be demoted? I don't think so. Jiu-jitsu takes a long time to fully sink in. It takes a certain degree of maturity, and requires the ups and downs that only come with time. You're not limiting these guys by holding them back, but rather, helping to enrich their experience. Just my opinion, of course!
This
Daniël Bertina
Daniël Bertina
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified880 forum posts15560/1000
3 year(s) ago
Tournament prowess is one thing. Depth of knowledge and skill is another. Keep them in blue and let them wreck shop until it becomes painfully clear that no one can match up. Then slowly bump them up. Get them to TEACH as soon as possible. That's where the real understanding happens.
John A. Byrne
John A. Byrne
Black beltVerified1013 forum posts6370/1000
3 year(s) ago
...Get them to TEACH as soon as possible. That's where the real understanding happens....
I couldn't agree more. As an ex-school teacher I can attest once you can explain the concept of a move / technique and the why it makes your understanding much deeper. I personally feel like I have learned a lot more much more quickly by teaching, and I can then extend this to new positions etc due to the concepts.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
Dwight Kelly Ii
Dwight Kelly Ii
Black beltVerified171 forum posts2720/1000
3 year(s) ago
It funny that this popped up because I was just having a discussion with someone about this. He feels that he has won so many tournaments at his current rank that he feels ready for the next even though it is has only been about a year. People fail to understand the importance of staying within rank, growing, and giving back (teaching). Everyone is ready to get to next belt without putting in the necessary time.

Of course, everyone will have THEIR perspective on promotion and what they deem necessary to achieve the next grade.

Edited 3 year(s) ago
Jim
Jim
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified346 forum posts3755/1000
3 year(s) ago
In our organization, rank promotions are based on three things:

(1) Fighting ability: How well does the student perform in sparring (or tournaments) against a skilled, resisting opponent of comparable experience level and attributes (e.g., weight class, age, etc.)?

(2) Technical knowledge: How many techniques does the student know and how well do they know them (and, at higher levels, how well can they teach)?

(3) Character: Is the student a good training partner who promotes a safe learning environment inside the school and a good representative of the academy in the community?

Often, students who come to BJJ from judo, wrestling, or MMA are very good in terms of sparring ability, but not necessarily technically proficient in all areas of Jiu-Jitsu (e.g., guard), and I might not have known them long enough to accurately judge their character. As long as a student is appropriately qualified in all three areas, I'm happy to promote them to whatever rank I think they deserve, though I've never done this for anything higher than a no-stripe blue belt, and only after knowing the student long enough to get a good feel for their overall technical game and moral character. I also want to be careful to not insult my long-term students by promoting somebody new over them when they've put in so much dedicated training time.
Vovis
Vovis
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified976 forum posts9215/1000
3 year(s) ago
In our organization, rank promotions are based on three things: (1) Fighting ability: How well does the student perform in sparring (or tournaments) against a skilled, resisting opponent of comparable experience level and attributes (e.g., weight class, age, etc.)? (2) Technical knowledge: How many techniques does the student know and how well do they know them (and, at higher levels, how well can they teach)? (3) Character: Is the student a good training partner who promotes a safe learning environment inside the school and a good representative of the academy in the community? Often, students who come to BJJ from judo, wrestling, or MMA are very good in terms of sparring ability, but not necessarily technically proficient in all areas of Jiu-Jitsu (e.g., guard), and I might not have known them long enough to accurately judge their character. As long as a student is appropriately qualified in all three areas, I'm happy to promote them to whatever rank I think they deserve, though I've never done this for anything higher than a no-stripe blue belt, and only after knowing the student long enough to get a good feel for their overall technical game and moral character. I also want to be careful to not insult my long-term students by promoting somebody new over them when they've put in so much dedicated training time.
Well said
Mark Gilston
Mark Gilston
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified200 forum posts6335/1000
3 year(s) ago
I've rolled with judo black belts who are just awful on the mat. I've also rolled with judo black belts who can hold their own against a high level BJJ purple or brown belt. It all depends on how and where you learned judo. My sensei was an expert in matwork long before anyone in the US had even heard of BJJ, and so my judo was always very matwork oriented and when I began BJJ I was probably already at purple belt level. My feeling is that if a judo black belt comes to your BJJ class, you should roll with them or watch them roll and then immediately promote them if the skill set is warranted. But don't saddle them with a blue belt if all they really understand is stand up technique.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
Slideyfoot [jun]
Slideyfoot [jun]
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1900 forum posts3635/1000
3 year(s) ago
How do you deal with situations like this? Do you promote them if they are not worried about IBJJF? Do you have time in requirements for belts?
I won't promote anybody to blue until they've been training at least a year. But yeah, if somebody is totally crushing everybody in comps at their belt level, I would promote them faster than somebody who isn't doing that.

It isn't fair on the people competing against a person like that to keep them at a level they've clearly outgrown.
Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
3 year(s) ago
I've personally always thought having an objective for each belt makes this problem go away. I like to view this as follows:
White to Blue: Bottom Game - Pin Escapes, Guard, Sweeps, etc.
Blue to Purple: Top Game - Passing, Pin Attack's, Positional Transitions, Etc.
Purple to Brown: Stand up Defense: Staying on Your feet, Recovering from fails takedown attempts, Standing Back Up, etc.
Brown to Black: Stand Up Offense: Initiating Takedowns, Takedown to superior position, etc.

So, you can be a world champion, but if you have no guard game, not a blue Belt. You can be smashing champions, but if you can't pass, you're not a purple belt. And so on.
Dwight Kelly Ii
Dwight Kelly Ii
Black beltVerified171 forum posts2720/1000
3 year(s) ago
I've personally always thought having an objective for each belt makes this problem go away. I like to view this as follows: White to Blue: Bottom Game - Pin Escapes, Guard, Sweeps, etc. Blue to Purple: Top Game - Passing, Pin Attack's, Positional Transitions, Etc. Purple to Brown: Stand up Defense: Staying on Your feet, Recovering from fails takedown attempts, Standing Back Up, etc. Brown to Black: Stand Up Offense: Initiating Takedowns, Takedown to superior position, etc. So, you can be a world champion, but if you have no guard game, not a blue Belt. You can be smashing champions, but if you can't pass, you're not a purple belt. And so on.
I like it.
Mark Gilston
Mark Gilston
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified200 forum posts6335/1000
3 year(s) ago
I've personally always thought having an objective for each belt makes this problem go away. I like to view this as follows: White to Blue: Bottom Game - Pin Escapes, Guard, Sweeps, etc. Blue to Purple: Top Game - Passing, Pin Attack's, Positional Transitions, Etc. Purple to Brown: Stand up Defense: Staying on Your feet, Recovering from fails takedown attempts, Standing Back Up, etc. Brown to Black: Stand Up Offense: Initiating Takedowns, Takedown to superior position, etc. So, you can be a world champion, but if you have no guard game, not a blue Belt. You can be smashing champions, but if you can't pass, you're not a purple belt. And so on.
So by this system, any judo black belt automatically gets promoted to BJJ black belt as soon as he reaches purple belt level.
Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
3 year(s) ago
So by this system, any judo black belt automatically gets promoted to BJJ black belt as soon as he reaches purple belt level.
I might want them to take some time to learn the specifics of take downs in BJJ, but why not. Same could be said for wrestlers. If the skillset is there, why shouldn't they? I see no added value in making people wait when they're already good enough.

Now, having said that, they'd probably spend a good while at white and blue from my perspective. I've noticed the judo guys I've usually trained with to have a very rudimentary grasp of ground work in the context of BJJ. To say nothing of poor submission defense especially in regards to leg locks.

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