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Revenge downvotes cast - you know what to do
3 year(s) ago • 37326 views • 284 replies
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
When upvoting, we are asked
"Are you sure that you trust the completeness and accuracy of the profile information and belt history for [member]?"
If I drive my car across some train tracks, I always believe that no train is coming. But I don't trust it. Same here - I might believe you, but to fully trust, I want to be able to check the completeness and accuracy of your profile information and belt history. From experience, I know that there is actually a few percent of the profiles which contain inaccuracies, in many cases which are even unknown to the member him/herself. Sure were not getting our car hit by a train if we're wrong in trusting, but is a verification really worth anything if we're not voting in a way which hinders those with inaccuracies from becoming verified, even if we downvote 10 legit members (who could put some more effort into their profile though) for every person with true inaccuracies which we avoid giving a verification?
"Are you sure you want to dispute the promotion history of [member]?" is not really the opposite of the verification text, but considering so many members throw verifications left and right like it's likes on Facebook, I really believe we need a counterweight for the verifications to hold any meaning at all. So I will continue interpreting the dispute as "Are you sure you want to dispute there being evidence provided on the profile to confirm the completeness and accuracy of the profile information and belt history?".
"Are you sure that you trust the completeness and accuracy of the profile information and belt history for [member]?"
If I drive my car across some train tracks, I always believe that no train is coming. But I don't trust it. Same here - I might believe you, but to fully trust, I want to be able to check the completeness and accuracy of your profile information and belt history. From experience, I know that there is actually a few percent of the profiles which contain inaccuracies, in many cases which are even unknown to the member him/herself. Sure were not getting our car hit by a train if we're wrong in trusting, but is a verification really worth anything if we're not voting in a way which hinders those with inaccuracies from becoming verified, even if we downvote 10 legit members (who could put some more effort into their profile though) for every person with true inaccuracies which we avoid giving a verification?
"Are you sure you want to dispute the promotion history of [member]?" is not really the opposite of the verification text, but considering so many members throw verifications left and right like it's likes on Facebook, I really believe we need a counterweight for the verifications to hold any meaning at all. So I will continue interpreting the dispute as "Are you sure you want to dispute there being evidence provided on the profile to confirm the completeness and accuracy of the profile information and belt history?".
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Let's say all the people who Johan downvoted did the same to him and he 1000 points would all of his downvotes disappear? Honestly that would really be self regulating
Correct. Any votes you have cast will be immediately deactivated if your profile looses verification.
(Not deleted though, they’ll pop back up if you get reverified later)
(Not deleted though, they’ll pop back up if you get reverified later)
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
who is on a quest? look at the screenshot. Im calling you out. This has nothing to do with building a good community, or checking profiles thoroughly. You are here just trolling for attention.
Conveniently, you left out the far greater number of people I have helped with getting their evidence together and then upvoted.
If you have a problem with the downvote you posted a screenshot of then please tell me what degree BB you yourself believe Remco was at the time he promoted Frans.
Believe it or not, but I actually hate attention. I had hopes of Beltchecker becoming a good alternative to IBJJF in verifying belts and was willing to invest some effort in it, even if that meant taking some heat and attention. I'm starting to believe it's a lost cause though, if no one else is willing to put in what it would take besides scratching each others backs with cheap upvotes.
If you have a problem with the downvote you posted a screenshot of then please tell me what degree BB you yourself believe Remco was at the time he promoted Frans.
Believe it or not, but I actually hate attention. I had hopes of Beltchecker becoming a good alternative to IBJJF in verifying belts and was willing to invest some effort in it, even if that meant taking some heat and attention. I'm starting to believe it's a lost cause though, if no one else is willing to put in what it would take besides scratching each others backs with cheap upvotes.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Johan
You have every right to vote any way you want, conduct yourself any way you want. The flip side is true also.
I defend your right to crusade on your standards.
The thing is you think you are correct, insist you are correct and that somehow you are upholding the standards and integrity of true martial artists. Maybe you should step back and actually listen to the feedback you get.
You start a thread looking for support and you get some but also get feedback about what other think and instead of accepting that there may be valid points to consider you just keep doubling down.
Flat out is revenge downvoting is wrong all the rationalization in the world does not justify you downvoting in revenge. If behavior honesty and integrity is part of being a Black Beltt your downvoting someone in revenge for them downvoting you in revenge is actually worse because you have claimed it is wrong.
2 wrongs don't make a right and all the word games and twisted rationalizations don't change that at all
You have every right to vote any way you want, conduct yourself any way you want. The flip side is true also.
I defend your right to crusade on your standards.
The thing is you think you are correct, insist you are correct and that somehow you are upholding the standards and integrity of true martial artists. Maybe you should step back and actually listen to the feedback you get.
You start a thread looking for support and you get some but also get feedback about what other think and instead of accepting that there may be valid points to consider you just keep doubling down.
Flat out is revenge downvoting is wrong all the rationalization in the world does not justify you downvoting in revenge. If behavior honesty and integrity is part of being a Black Beltt your downvoting someone in revenge for them downvoting you in revenge is actually worse because you have claimed it is wrong.
2 wrongs don't make a right and all the word games and twisted rationalizations don't change that at all
TVBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
U disputed blackbelts because their teachers, teacher might have made a mistake on his beltchecker.
Your own teacher doesn't even have a beltchecker acount to spy onto.
As I understood it the belt verification was put in place so we can check if someone is legit.
You just downvote profiles that are legit without any reasonable doubt.
Guys like you will be the reason a lot of guys won't create a beltchecker acount.
To train for 25 years and be deemed unworthy of your belt and have to defend yourself is just not worth their time.
Your own teacher doesn't even have a beltchecker acount to spy onto.
As I understood it the belt verification was put in place so we can check if someone is legit.
You just downvote profiles that are legit without any reasonable doubt.
Guys like you will be the reason a lot of guys won't create a beltchecker acount.
To train for 25 years and be deemed unworthy of your belt and have to defend yourself is just not worth their time.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Correct. Any votes you have cast will be immediately deactivated if your profile looses verification. (Not deleted though, they’ll pop back up if you get reverified later)
Same of course goes for revenge downvoters negative points, if the community decides that's unacceptable and acts to discourage it. By the looks of it, it seems as if the number of people willing to do a downvote for what's best for Beltchecker in the long run is far less than the number of people willing to grab some pitchforks and revenge vote me. So be it then. The biggest losers will be those wishing for a Beltchecker verification to really mean something besides being a confirmation of having signed up and put up a profile.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Johan You have every right to vote any way you want, conduct yourself any way you want. The flip side is true also. I defend your right to crusade on your standards. The thing is you think you are correct, insist you are correct and that somehow you are upholding the standards and integrity of true martial artists. Maybe you should step back and actually listen to the feedback you get. You start a thread looking for support and you get some but also get feedback about what other think and instead of accepting that there may be valid points to consider you just keep doubling down. Flat out is revenge downvoting is wrong all the rationalization in the world does not justify you downvoting in revenge. If behavior honesty and integrity is part of being a Black Beltt your downvoting someone in revenge for them downvoting you in revenge is actually worse because you have claimed it is wrong. 2 wrongs don't make a right and all the word games and twisted rationalizations don't change that at all
Downvoting is the only mechanism this site has for neutralizing the negative effect of revenge voters. But the community decides, as is the rules of this experiment.
I only insist I am correct based on the premises of IBJJF equivalent promotion criteria, that evidence should be provided by the member and that the evidence should be strong and conclusive, including of the lineage up to where it can be connected to a very wellknown one (where we all know Carlos didn't get his BB from God or even Maeda).
Meeting these criteria is not at all the same as "the standards and integrity of true martial artists". Also, I have seen white belts who in many senses are more "true martial artists" than most black belts. I really don't sit on any higher truth there. I'm on Beltchecker and I check belts here. Simple as that.
I only insist I am correct based on the premises of IBJJF equivalent promotion criteria, that evidence should be provided by the member and that the evidence should be strong and conclusive, including of the lineage up to where it can be connected to a very wellknown one (where we all know Carlos didn't get his BB from God or even Maeda).
Meeting these criteria is not at all the same as "the standards and integrity of true martial artists". Also, I have seen white belts who in many senses are more "true martial artists" than most black belts. I really don't sit on any higher truth there. I'm on Beltchecker and I check belts here. Simple as that.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Johan,
of course you are correct down vote when you revenge down vote it is appropriate. Thank god I don't consider myself a martial artist and I don't have to worry about that stuff.
I am curious if you want this to be an alternative to the IBJJF why uphold their criteria?
of course you are correct down vote when you revenge down vote it is appropriate. Thank god I don't consider myself a martial artist and I don't have to worry about that stuff.
I am curious if you want this to be an alternative to the IBJJF why uphold their criteria?
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I am curious if you want this to be an alternative to the IBJJF why uphold their criteria?
I don't just want this to be an alternative to IBJJF, I want this to be a better alternative than IBJJF with a more valuable degree verification. And a more valuable verification with lower standard doesn't make much sense, does it?
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Johan, of course you are correct down vote when you revenge down vote it is appropriate. Thank god I don't consider myself a martial artist and I don't have to worry about that stuff. I am curious if you want this to be an alternative to the IBJJF why uphold their criteria?
i think the hard question is.... without IBJJF, without beltchecker, without a centralized global BJJ authority, what is a valid promotion? the true answer that no one wants to talk about is.... "there is no standard". standards are totally up to the local BJJ professor. none of it matters. the only time it matters is if you want some personal validation that you are seen as legitimate. but even with that, legitimacy is determined by the group providing it. Its all bullshit in the end of the day. BJJ is too big now to ever allow a promotion authority to matter. but...if you want to verify a belt, you have to decide what standard you will follow, and be consistent with that standard
BWBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
You literally voted for someone who doesn't meet the IBJJF criteria for black belt promotion based on their own admitted history, but said it was a reasonable exception, and then downvoted me who is a registered 2nd degree IBJJF black belt with pictured of me competing at black belt - so at least meeting their criteria.
You select which IBJJF criteria you are okay with and which you aren't, which is fine, but don't then claim you are only claiming you sre correct up to "IBJJF equivalent promotion criteria."
You select which IBJJF criteria you are okay with and which you aren't, which is fine, but don't then claim you are only claiming you sre correct up to "IBJJF equivalent promotion criteria."
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
This is not and never will be an alternative to the IBJJF.
This is completely different it is a peer review site with very little moderation.
My OPINION based on the way the people that started it guide it is not let it develop on it's own. The hands off approach leads to self moderation. You have your way of doing things and your goals for the site as do others here.
I am here eating popcorn and being entertained and as far as this being a social experiment it is turning into a fascinating one and I love it here as you are honestly a compelling pert of the experiment. I for one am really looking forward to watching it play out.
This is completely different it is a peer review site with very little moderation.
My OPINION based on the way the people that started it guide it is not let it develop on it's own. The hands off approach leads to self moderation. You have your way of doing things and your goals for the site as do others here.
I am here eating popcorn and being entertained and as far as this being a social experiment it is turning into a fascinating one and I love it here as you are honestly a compelling pert of the experiment. I for one am really looking forward to watching it play out.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
You literally voted for someone who doesn't meet the IBJJF criteria for black belt promotion based on their own admitted history, but said it was a reasonable exception, and then downvoted me who is a registered 2nd degree IBJJF black belt with pictured of me competing at black belt - so at least meeting their criteria. You select which IBJJF criteria you are okay with and which you aren't, which is fine, but don't then claim you are only claiming you sre correct up to 'IBJJF equivalent promotion criteria.'
Please don't let reality get in the way of a good story line. The IBJJF only matters sometimes
TVBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
It's so strange that you can justify downvoting someone who has a legion of guys vouching for him, from all different affiliations and have known him for your years; still saying you're just doing honest work. You're just a troll as far as I am concerned.
Even more so with your.. flawed.. promotion history. Three degrees in 2023? Belt from your teacher who gave it through the internet?
Your teacher isn't even on beltchecker to confirm them.. of we to confirm your teacher.. or his teacher.
Even more so with your.. flawed.. promotion history. Three degrees in 2023? Belt from your teacher who gave it through the internet?
Your teacher isn't even on beltchecker to confirm them.. of we to confirm your teacher.. or his teacher.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
It's so strange that you can justify downvoting someone who has a legion of guys vouching for him, from all different affiliations and have known him for your years; still saying you're just doing honest work. You're just a troll as far as I am concerned. Even more so with your.. flawed.. promotion history. Three degrees in 2023? Belt from your teacher who gave it through the internet? Your teacher isn't even on beltchecker to confirm them.. of we to confirm your teacher.. or his teacher.
Name-calling is the sign of true intelligence. But I don’t have the paperwork to back that up.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
It was my understanding that the IBJJF does not recognize Black Belt stripes given at the same time to be recognized they need to be awarded and registered the appropriate dates.
AS a probationary blackbelt registering with them it pushes your stripes back the probationary period also
AS a probationary blackbelt registering with them it pushes your stripes back the probationary period also
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
You literally voted for someone who doesn't meet the IBJJF criteria for black belt promotion based on their own admitted history, but said it was a reasonable exception, and then downvoted me who is a registered 2nd degree IBJJF black belt with pictured of me competing at black belt - so at least meeting their criteria. You select which IBJJF criteria you are okay with and which you aren't, which is fine, but don't then claim you are only claiming you sre correct up to 'IBJJF equivalent promotion criteria.'
You didn't make a reference to the IBJJF BB online registry as evidence on your profile. That might actually have made me just skip voting.
IBJJF themselves has made many big exceptions over the years, without really admitting to it. So I have been open with accepting some leeway when there's minor issues or a couple of weeks off somewhere, to accommodate for logistical practicalities with when senior instructors are visiting etc. I usually still encourage to adjust the dates to comply, at least for future degrees. I've never actually seen anyone on Beltchecker being more strict than that.
As for my own degrees on BB, I haven't really needed them before for promoting anyone, so I didn't bother giving it much thought until promoting BB:s of my own drew closer and I was really hoping Gigi would come to the Nordic region anyways, which at first didn't look as it would happen in the foreseeable future. I much rather got them from him, even if on distance, than getting them from a senior Swedish BB or claiming them on Beltchecker through pure Time served. Some late laid plans though and he actually came to Finland earlier this autumn, where I got the third stripe, which effectively also confirms the previous two. Sorry, I should had made annual payments to the Beltcheckers verifiers since 2014 instead! ;-P
In any case, I have never downvoted anyone for similar circumstances and if you're going to pretend to be believable in having more strict criteria than I do, make sure to do it across the board or it will just be obvious you're actually revenge voting. Bringing up no evidence confirming my teacher's legitimacy (Gigi) or his teacher's (Jacaré) makes it even more obvious. Do you question the legitimacy of Jacarés teacher Rolls as well, while you're at it?
IBJJF themselves has made many big exceptions over the years, without really admitting to it. So I have been open with accepting some leeway when there's minor issues or a couple of weeks off somewhere, to accommodate for logistical practicalities with when senior instructors are visiting etc. I usually still encourage to adjust the dates to comply, at least for future degrees. I've never actually seen anyone on Beltchecker being more strict than that.
As for my own degrees on BB, I haven't really needed them before for promoting anyone, so I didn't bother giving it much thought until promoting BB:s of my own drew closer and I was really hoping Gigi would come to the Nordic region anyways, which at first didn't look as it would happen in the foreseeable future. I much rather got them from him, even if on distance, than getting them from a senior Swedish BB or claiming them on Beltchecker through pure Time served. Some late laid plans though and he actually came to Finland earlier this autumn, where I got the third stripe, which effectively also confirms the previous two. Sorry, I should had made annual payments to the Beltcheckers verifiers since 2014 instead! ;-P
In any case, I have never downvoted anyone for similar circumstances and if you're going to pretend to be believable in having more strict criteria than I do, make sure to do it across the board or it will just be obvious you're actually revenge voting. Bringing up no evidence confirming my teacher's legitimacy (Gigi) or his teacher's (Jacaré) makes it even more obvious. Do you question the legitimacy of Jacarés teacher Rolls as well, while you're at it?
BWBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
When did I claim to have more strict criteria? Man you are all over the place. I'm not pretending to be more strict, I in fact have never made any claims about the strictness of my voting compared to other people. Maybe you were talking about someone else? I also didn't question your instructors legitimacy, so maybe you switched people or are conflating issues.
Also, I did appeal to the black belt registry for the IBJJF by posting a picture of me on the podium as a black belt in an IBJJF tournament. You may intermittently have more strict criteria, or pretend to, but you are so inconsistent it shouldn't be taken seriously.
I've done two things you've asked: posted a picture of me in my BJJ black belt and also appealed to equivalent criteria through the IBJJF. If you don't accept your-own- criteria, that's inconsistency.
Also, I did appeal to the black belt registry for the IBJJF by posting a picture of me on the podium as a black belt in an IBJJF tournament. You may intermittently have more strict criteria, or pretend to, but you are so inconsistent it shouldn't be taken seriously.
I've done two things you've asked: posted a picture of me in my BJJ black belt and also appealed to equivalent criteria through the IBJJF. If you don't accept your-own- criteria, that's inconsistency.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
It was my understanding that the IBJJF does not recognize Black Belt stripes given at the same time to be recognized they need to be awarded and registered the appropriate dates. AS a probationary blackbelt registering with them it pushes your stripes back the probationary period also
Don't forget the never ending payments for everything, his grandmother and the kitchen sink! :-)
Whoever wants to vote based on those criteria for everyone (not just exerting revenge on a particular person), go ahead! Personally, I've never expected money for my verifications and have many times upvoted when times in degrees have evened out before the current degree.
The IBJJF equivalent criteria of
A) being promoted to BB by a 2:nd degree BBor higher
and
B) providing evidence of who promoted you
I think is very reasonable though.
Whoever wants to vote based on those criteria for everyone (not just exerting revenge on a particular person), go ahead! Personally, I've never expected money for my verifications and have many times upvoted when times in degrees have evened out before the current degree.
The IBJJF equivalent criteria of
A) being promoted to BB by a 2:nd degree BBor higher
and
B) providing evidence of who promoted you
I think is very reasonable though.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Johan you don’t get it both ways on one hand you say you use IBJJF criteria and in the other dismiss it.
I am sorry but make up your mind or at least say the IBJJF is complete BS and do your own thing.but being on the podium in an IBJJF Black Belt division is self evident that tge IBJJF recognized your belt.
I am sorry but make up your mind or at least say the IBJJF is complete BS and do your own thing.but being on the podium in an IBJJF Black Belt division is self evident that tge IBJJF recognized your belt.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
When did I claim to have more strict criteria? Man you are all over the place. I'm not pretending to be more strict, I in fact have never made any claims about the strictness of my voting compared to other people. Maybe you were talking about someone else? I also didn't question your instructors legitimacy, so maybe you switched people or are conflating issues. Also, I did appeal to the black belt registry for the IBJJF by posting a picture of me on the podium as a black belt in an IBJJF tournament. You may intermittently have more strict criteria, or pretend to, but you are so inconsistent it shouldn't be taken seriously. I've done two things you've asked: posted a picture of me in my BJJ black belt and also appealed to equivalent criteria through the IBJJF. If you don't accept your-own- criteria, that's inconsistency.
Downvoting because of simultaneous ketchup-effect-degrees on BB (which are typically based on time anyways, even with a named instructor awarding them) IS more strict than my voting when circumstances are similar.
I'm sorry to say but the belt in itself shows nothing. You're probably just minutes away from having excellent evidence on your profile, but I can't force you. But there's probably a few members who are happier yet with you adding more nudes to your profile ;-P
I'm sorry to say but the belt in itself shows nothing. You're probably just minutes away from having excellent evidence on your profile, but I can't force you. But there's probably a few members who are happier yet with you adding more nudes to your profile ;-P
BWBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Ahh so you are saying I am more strict, but then claiming it's me pretending.
Makes total sense.
Makes total sense.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Johan you don’t get it both ways on one hand you say you use IBJJF criteria and in the other dismiss it. I am sorry but make up your mind or at least say the IBJJF is complete BS and do your own thing.but being on the podium in an IBJJF Black Belt division is self evident that tge IBJJF recognized your belt.
I'm saying IBJJF equivalent criteria, not equal criteria to IBJJF. I simply want to see evidence ensuring at least the same standard on lineage and level of evidence as IBJJF expects. I've never downvoted because someone didn't pay up or didn't keep themselves registered and the likes of those criteria which serves to cement IBJJF:s business.
There will always be border cases and reasons for giving leeway. Would you rather see me totally fixed and without any compromise in my criteria? Do you even think it would be possible, with all the different kinds of evidence and circumstances here?
There will always be border cases and reasons for giving leeway. Would you rather see me totally fixed and without any compromise in my criteria? Do you even think it would be possible, with all the different kinds of evidence and circumstances here?
ARBlack beltVerified
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Amazing how quickly some people go from 'I am a ground warrior shark in the sea of the lion's den' to sniveling 'how dare you ask me to prove my lineage?!' bitch... and I was told everyone checks their egos at the door...
Nothing better than all that alpha male shark lion, special operations, killing machine, logos. With baby blood dripping on the outside. And sweet slogans like lions, don’t lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I surrender Johan
I had mistakenly thought "REVENGE DOWNVOTES CAST - YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO" was an effort to solicit opinions or support and possibly get clarity on what others thought. I see now that it was an attempt to get back up and elicit support against those who chose to downvote you in revenge.
I will go back to popcorn and wait till the next installment of the downvote sagas.
I had mistakenly thought "REVENGE DOWNVOTES CAST - YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO" was an effort to solicit opinions or support and possibly get clarity on what others thought. I see now that it was an attempt to get back up and elicit support against those who chose to downvote you in revenge.
I will go back to popcorn and wait till the next installment of the downvote sagas.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I was told everyone checks their egos at the door...
I always thought this was hilarious there are tons of egos in combat sports. Combat sports themselves are ego based
BWBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Nothing better than all that alpha male shark lion, special operations, killing machine, logos. With baby blood dripping on the outside. And sweet slogans like lions, don’t lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
Ahh, quoting the grunt style t-shirts and calling people sheep... next you will be telling other people to not call each other names... oh wait.
If you want people to not doubt your non-sheep hero level status, make your entire profile about your military service.
But anyhow, let's get back to how arbitrary promotion standards are.
If you want people to not doubt your non-sheep hero level status, make your entire profile about your military service.
But anyhow, let's get back to how arbitrary promotion standards are.
JJBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Ok he down voted Neufang.
I say everyone should downvote Johan so all his votes are void.
Be the change you want to see in this world.
I am downvoting him now. He needs a timeout.
I say everyone should downvote Johan so all his votes are void.
Be the change you want to see in this world.
I am downvoting him now. He needs a timeout.
