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Ecological method of teaching/training
2 year(s) ago • 8362 views • 215 replies
RBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I went to a week-long Methods of Instruction class geared toward LE, and in it there was a lot of teaching/learning theory for optimal retention and transfer. During the class I was referred to Greg Souders and his "ecological" approach to coaching and training BJJ. I've listened to a few podcasts and watched some of his content on Insta and YouTube, but am still trying to figure out how to structure a class or integrate it into my teaching and training. Ironically, it seems easier to grasp in the context of law enforcement than BJJ.
Anyone have any thoughts, experience, suggestions on this?
Anyone have any thoughts, experience, suggestions on this?
RKBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I been teaching like this for years, but I called it teaching concepts. This is the way my brain thinks so I teach it this way. It’s much harder to teach it in a classroom setting than in a private session. So if you are thinking of starting to try teaching it this way, you might want to start with a training partner first.
For me, I do a lot of positional drilling, but concentrating on a specific concept.
For example, to escape the RNC , I have my students concentrate on bringing the near shoulder not attached to the opponents chest, then put the shoulder to the floor. I will explain the importance of disconnecting the shoulder from the opponents chest then to the floor. And have them drill/ spar at 50% speed.
Typically the less experienced player will just rotate their shoulders and sometimes get out and often times don’t. I feel like the failure to escape is important to feel because now they will seek a more efficient way. Then I will add new concepts of hand positioning , and hand fighting and then getting the shoulder out. Then I have them drill/ spar at 50% speed again.
The more experienced players who already know this will find different angles to lead with head then finish the move. And often, a novice who learns fast will get out of the RNC of the more experienced player. Then the experienced player will learn the importance of leg work, to maintain the chest to back pressure.
I typically will add more details and concepts and again have them spar at 50% speed.
I often find this way of teaching makes the students learn faster and it forces the more experienced players to learn the hierarchy of what’s important.
I don’t know it this all made sense, but it involves showing a concept, then spar, show another concept then spar and repeat. It’s a lot of positional sparring.
For me, I do a lot of positional drilling, but concentrating on a specific concept.
For example, to escape the RNC , I have my students concentrate on bringing the near shoulder not attached to the opponents chest, then put the shoulder to the floor. I will explain the importance of disconnecting the shoulder from the opponents chest then to the floor. And have them drill/ spar at 50% speed.
Typically the less experienced player will just rotate their shoulders and sometimes get out and often times don’t. I feel like the failure to escape is important to feel because now they will seek a more efficient way. Then I will add new concepts of hand positioning , and hand fighting and then getting the shoulder out. Then I have them drill/ spar at 50% speed again.
The more experienced players who already know this will find different angles to lead with head then finish the move. And often, a novice who learns fast will get out of the RNC of the more experienced player. Then the experienced player will learn the importance of leg work, to maintain the chest to back pressure.
I typically will add more details and concepts and again have them spar at 50% speed.
I often find this way of teaching makes the students learn faster and it forces the more experienced players to learn the hierarchy of what’s important.
I don’t know it this all made sense, but it involves showing a concept, then spar, show another concept then spar and repeat. It’s a lot of positional sparring.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
LSBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I too am one to create restricted drills to make sure my students get a lot of reps in a given position. But what I'm taking from the ecological approach is to create conditions in which the explicit instruction is no longer needed.
The thing that is difficult is to decide on what those conditions are and how to communicate them effectively. An example Souders has is to restrict a top player to half guard without passing. The top player will soon find out the hips are the first thing in reach that when pinned can reduce your partners options by a lot. They will probably quickly find out that the hands are ineffective at pinning the hips as long as they are on their feet, so they might start using their legs. Alternatively you might instruct your students to keep one knee in front of both their opponents knees, which can expedite that process of discovery.
Using the ecological approach to jiu jitsu means you have to understand quite thoroughly what each move in a sequence of moves is intended to accomplish, and then think of conditions that will invite people to make that move by giving them specific goals in conditions that "afford" specific behavior.
I've always tried to create classes that allow my students to invent or accidentally stumble upon things that I have never seen before so we can learn from each other. The ecological approach fits that perfectly. Sometimes it is just hard, though. What conditions will afford a "Kiss of the Dragon"? It might have taken someone years of trial and error to find that move. Our students might never find it without explicit instruction. So I find myself tinkering with the rules of restricted games a lot.
Something I keep in mind is to keep restrictions to a minimum so restricted drills look like sparring as much as possible. Also I try to make sure that the conditions do not invite students to adopt bad habits. This is a very tricky thing.
The thing that is difficult is to decide on what those conditions are and how to communicate them effectively. An example Souders has is to restrict a top player to half guard without passing. The top player will soon find out the hips are the first thing in reach that when pinned can reduce your partners options by a lot. They will probably quickly find out that the hands are ineffective at pinning the hips as long as they are on their feet, so they might start using their legs. Alternatively you might instruct your students to keep one knee in front of both their opponents knees, which can expedite that process of discovery.
Using the ecological approach to jiu jitsu means you have to understand quite thoroughly what each move in a sequence of moves is intended to accomplish, and then think of conditions that will invite people to make that move by giving them specific goals in conditions that "afford" specific behavior.
I've always tried to create classes that allow my students to invent or accidentally stumble upon things that I have never seen before so we can learn from each other. The ecological approach fits that perfectly. Sometimes it is just hard, though. What conditions will afford a "Kiss of the Dragon"? It might have taken someone years of trial and error to find that move. Our students might never find it without explicit instruction. So I find myself tinkering with the rules of restricted games a lot.
Something I keep in mind is to keep restrictions to a minimum so restricted drills look like sparring as much as possible. Also I try to make sure that the conditions do not invite students to adopt bad habits. This is a very tricky thing.
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SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I'm not yet convinced that ecological training is anything more than marketing. From what I've seen, it feels like a fancy new term slapped onto something people have been doing for years.
Still, I'm intrigued, particularly as people I like have been talking about it (e.g., Chris Paines).
Still, I'm intrigued, particularly as people I like have been talking about it (e.g., Chris Paines).
Edited 2 year(s) ago
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
If you were coaching a ball sport, how would you do that? Now try the same with Jiu Jitsu.
(The “difficult” aspect here is that most Jiu Jitsu coaches have no idea how sports are actually being taught, of course)
(The “difficult” aspect here is that most Jiu Jitsu coaches have no idea how sports are actually being taught, of course)
Edited 2 year(s) ago
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Here's what not to do.
An half hour of jumping jacks, shrimping, and other random aerobics. Then followed by having everyone sit down (and cool down) while you waffle on about one or two highly specific techniques that requires a shit ton of details and contingencies to be able to pull off against a living opponent.
An half hour of jumping jacks, shrimping, and other random aerobics. Then followed by having everyone sit down (and cool down) while you waffle on about one or two highly specific techniques that requires a shit ton of details and contingencies to be able to pull off against a living opponent.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
RRandyOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
The issue I'm having is that I find it hard to believe that a student would ever "self-discover" themselves landing an omoplata, kimura, or d'arce without being taught. The games concept is certainly higher level thinking and progress enhancing. I am going to integrate the constraints led approach into my classes, but that seems more applicable to positional work (guard passing/retention, wrestling up, sweeps, etc)
DBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Just googled this and don't want to watch an hour and a half podcast to learn what this is. What exactly is ecological bjj training?
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Just googled this and don't want to watch an hour and a half podcast to learn what this is. What exactly is ecological bjj training?
It's a pretentious way of saying you teach something through a series of cooperative and/or oppositional games. With a limited amount of detailed instruction.
Let them play & try to beat each other in a bunch of constrained games and see what emerges from that.
Let them play & try to beat each other in a bunch of constrained games and see what emerges from that.
DBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
It's a pretentious way of saying you teach something through a series of cooperative and/or oppositional games. With a limited amount of detailed instruction. Let them play & try to beat each other in a bunch of constrained games and see what emerges from that.
Ah got it. So I'll pair up my white belts, start them in leg entanglements, and see if they manage to heel hook each other.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
The issue I'm having is that I find it hard to believe that a student would ever 'self-discover' themselves landing an omoplata, kimura, or d'arce without being taught. The games concept is certainly higher level thinking and progress enhancing. I am going to integrate the constraints led approach into my classes, but that seems more applicable to positional work (guard passing/retention, wrestling up, sweeps, etc)
No need for them to self discover anything. For instance just start them out with kimura grips in different positions, explain the basic mechanics of it and let them play different games from there. Like put the hand behind the back vs break the grip. A follow up game could be start I chest to chest position, bottom person try to escape and top person look for kimura grips in the process.
KBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I’ve always liked a more hybrid approach to this in my classes…….
Example: I tend to pick a theme for the week let’s say 1/2 guard sweeps.
Warm ups consist of drilling the previous week’s instruction for 2x3 min rounds. They can pick any move or moves from the previous week and rep them out with their partner….i feel like this helps them better lock it in to their muscle memory rather than learn it once and forget about it. It also allows them to get a bit more creative with the techniques as they are touching on them more frequently, working with different body types in different days etc
I’ll intro a new sweep or 2 per class. They will drill those for 5-10 reps each. Then we will move to flow rolling (25-50% resistance) starting from 1/2 guard for 10 min giving them the opportunity to experiment with light resistance and different opponents reactions…..we then we will live roll from 1/2 guard.
The next week warm ups will consist of the 1/2 guard sweep curriculum from the previous week to further lock in their favorites from that content and we’ll move on to the next theme……the students tend to further explore different nuances, angles, etc since they are working this daily often times with a different partner……they see what others are doing feel different pressure etc.
I’ll walk around during the warm up answering questions or making minor adjustments.
Example: I tend to pick a theme for the week let’s say 1/2 guard sweeps.
Warm ups consist of drilling the previous week’s instruction for 2x3 min rounds. They can pick any move or moves from the previous week and rep them out with their partner….i feel like this helps them better lock it in to their muscle memory rather than learn it once and forget about it. It also allows them to get a bit more creative with the techniques as they are touching on them more frequently, working with different body types in different days etc
I’ll intro a new sweep or 2 per class. They will drill those for 5-10 reps each. Then we will move to flow rolling (25-50% resistance) starting from 1/2 guard for 10 min giving them the opportunity to experiment with light resistance and different opponents reactions…..we then we will live roll from 1/2 guard.
The next week warm ups will consist of the 1/2 guard sweep curriculum from the previous week to further lock in their favorites from that content and we’ll move on to the next theme……the students tend to further explore different nuances, angles, etc since they are working this daily often times with a different partner……they see what others are doing feel different pressure etc.
I’ll walk around during the warm up answering questions or making minor adjustments.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
LSBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
The main difference is that instead of teaching a technique for a specific situation, you create conditions/a situation from which applying the technique becomes a natural thing to do.
Different approach. You kinda reverse the thinking. Making the circumstances central to learning. You teach the problem and let them explore the possibilities to find a solution. The constraints you empose are meant to limit just how much you want students to explore.
Different approach. You kinda reverse the thinking. Making the circumstances central to learning. You teach the problem and let them explore the possibilities to find a solution. The constraints you empose are meant to limit just how much you want students to explore.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
RRandyOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
No need for them to self discover anything. For instance just start them out with kimura grips in different positions, explain the basic mechanics of it and let them play different games from there. Like put the hand behind the back vs break the grip. A follow up game could be start I chest to chest position, bottom person try to escape and top person look for kimura grips in the process.
Light bulb moment. Thank you!
RRandyOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
The main difference is that instead of teaching a technique for a specific situation, you create conditions/a situation from which applying the technique becomes a natural thing to do. Different approach. You kinda reverse the thinking. Making the circumstances central to learning. You teach the problem and let them explore the possibilities to find a solution. The constraints you empose are meant to limit just how much you want students to explore.
Also very helpful. Appreciate it!
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I liked Chris P's answer to my "is eco just marketing" question on his podcast: https://open.spotify.com/[...]&t=596
RFPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I'm not yet convinced that ecological training is anything more than marketing. From what I've seen, it feels like a fancy new term slapped onto something people have been doing for years. Still, I'm intrigued, particularly as people I like have been talking about it (e.g., Chris Paines).
At least Greg Souders who is "The Main Guy" promoting eco approch believes that this is The Thing. And he is not selling anything at least not yet. He also promised in podcast that visitors can train free in his gym.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
At least Greg Souders who is 'The Main Guy' promoting eco approch believes that this is The Thing. And he is not selling anything at least not yet. He also promised in podcast that visitors can train free in his gym.
I hear Souders is rather pretentious and snide (which doesn't necessarily mean he's giving out bad info, but does very much put me off listening to him). However, I haven't yet made the effort to listen to anything he's said, so that's entirely second hand info.
Any links to a good interview with him?
Any links to a good interview with him?
SLBrown beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
It works well. We have good success with it at our gym.
RRandyOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I hear Souders is rather pretentious and snide (which doesn't necessarily mean he's giving out bad info, but does very much put me off listening to him). However, I haven't yet made the effort to listen to anything he's said, so that's entirely second hand info. Any links to a good interview with him?
I get that vibe after listening to several podcasts he was on. He acts like it's all eco or it's all wrong - which seldom ever is anything absolute.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I get that vibe after listening to several podcasts he was on. He acts like it's all eco or it's all wrong - which seldom ever is anything absolute.
Ah, I'll give Souders a miss then, that kind of dogmatic thinking is a bad sign. The opposite of what Chris said on the podcast I linked. Chris and his co-host pointed out, very sensibly, that different people respond to different types of training. Eco works great for some, not great for others.
LSBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
BJJ mental Models podcast episode 206 is a great one. I think Souders gets most of his info from the guest they have on the show.
He gives a great explanation of what the core of the ecological approach is, in very understandable terms
He gives a great explanation of what the core of the ecological approach is, in very understandable terms
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Ah, I'll give Souders a miss then, that kind of dogmatic thinking is a bad sign. The opposite of what Chris said on the podcast I linked. Chris and his co-host pointed out, very sensibly, that different people respond to different types of training. Eco works great for some, not great for others.
He's Priit on crack. But Priit has toned down his act over the years and has mellowed out, Souders is just getting started. I find him utterly insufferable.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
He's Priit on crack. But Priit has toned down his act over the years and has mellowed out, Sounders is just getting started. I find him utterly insufferable.
When he described riding a bicycle as a “controlling the tilt of a two-wheeled object”, I was out 😂
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Mind you, Priit is my "almost friend" and I genuinely like him. But you get my point, Can.
JBPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I went to a week-long Methods of Instruction class geared toward LE, and in it there was a lot of teaching/learning theory for optimal retention and transfer. During the class I was referred to Greg Souders and his 'ecological' approach to coaching and training BJJ. I've listened to a few podcasts and watched some of his content on Insta and YouTube, but am still trying to figure out how to structure a class or integrate it into my teaching and training. Ironically, it seems easier to grasp in the context of law enforcement than BJJ. Anyone have any thoughts, experience, suggestions on this?
Check out the way Chris Paines and Naqi Arshed structure their classes. I have been out training with them for a few months and their methods are the best I have seen from the various ways “eco” classes are structured.
RRandyOP
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Check out the way Chris Paines and Naqi Arshed structure their classes. I have been out training with them for a few months and their methods are the best I have seen from the various ways “eco” classes are structured.
I'll check them out, thanks!!
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
This is the youtube talk with that Souders guy.
Can't say it's not interesting to listen to. Lets face it, bjj is interesting no matter what.
If it works, great. If not, thats great too.
Train how you want, who you want to train with and make sure BJJ is always something enjoyable, even when it sucks.
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]k&t=1s
Can't say it's not interesting to listen to. Lets face it, bjj is interesting no matter what.
If it works, great. If not, thats great too.
Train how you want, who you want to train with and make sure BJJ is always something enjoyable, even when it sucks.
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]k&t=1s
SLBrown beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Check out the way Chris Paines and Naqi Arshed structure their classes. I have been out training with them for a few months and their methods are the best I have seen from the various ways “eco” classes are structured.
Me and Chris did a webinar on eco basics. You can see it on his patreon - in theory BJJ
*shameless plug*
*shameless plug*
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
One of my biggest arguments for games based training is also simply just total play time. In a "classic" class, there can maybe be 15 minutes warmup, 30-45 minutes of talking technique and often one-sided drilling/repetition with little resistance. At the end maybe half an hour of 6 minute rounds with at least a minute break in between. Worst case scenario, that can give people a total of 25 minutes play time with full two-way resistance per class.
I run my classes with games from first to last minute. Games for warmup, games for technique, games for sparring. That is 90 minutes of both players constantly working against each other in different scenarios. Since the intensity is relatively medium, the breaks are minimal; just to get some water and do feedback loops with each other.
So one factor that plays a huge difference is simply how many minutes each participant get of resistance training per class. And we're talking sometimes a factor of 3x with this approach. This alone will make people a lot better a lot faster (I see the results clearly)
I run my classes with games from first to last minute. Games for warmup, games for technique, games for sparring. That is 90 minutes of both players constantly working against each other in different scenarios. Since the intensity is relatively medium, the breaks are minimal; just to get some water and do feedback loops with each other.
So one factor that plays a huge difference is simply how many minutes each participant get of resistance training per class. And we're talking sometimes a factor of 3x with this approach. This alone will make people a lot better a lot faster (I see the results clearly)
