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Verbal Tap???

2 year(s) ago • 1267 views • 22 replies

Kenneth Barry
Kenneth Barry
Purple beltVerified5 forum posts1150/400
2 year(s) ago
Hi all,
I want to get your view on this if you could?
I had match stopped and lost the match in a competition over the weekend.
I was caught in a triangle choke, reached across and got a cross collar grip on my opponent, I was 'turning the corner' enroute to an escape/pass and the ref stopped the match as he said the way I was breathing/'gurgling' is a verbal tap.

IBJJF rule 2.2.4 "When the athlete screams or emits noise expressing pain while trapped in a submission hold."

I will qualify that this was at blue belt and not white belt/teens/youths.
Matthew Garrett
Matthew Garrett
Black beltVerified47 forum posts3430/1000
2 year(s) ago
Two things:
1. You did not verbally tap. Your gurgling was a result of you struggling to escape, not as a verbal submission. Feel proud about your effort and use this experience as a way to find new and more efficient ways to escape.

2. Referees are always right. They could be a white belt no stripe goof ball but they are right. Always and forever. If they interpret you struggle gurgle as a tap then it was a verbal tap. Better trained/experienced referees will develop strategies like making eye contact with you or just having a better sense of when someone is in danger but until then they are still in the right. This sucks yes but it’s not about you or your win/loss record it comes down to safety.
John A. Byrne
John A. Byrne
Black beltVerified1013 forum posts6370/1000
2 year(s) ago
I agree with Matthew. In the future after the match or at the end of the tournament respectfully go up to the ref and ask him for clarification and he may give you some extra info about the issue / what he saw or what he can do better for himself in his mind.

Either way more info = better you. Hell, I learned a couple escapes I didn't know based on losing and the other Professor showing me a way out after everything was done.
Mark Gilston
Mark Gilston
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified200 forum posts6335/1000
2 year(s) ago
2. Referees are always right. They could be a white belt no stripe goof ball but they are right. Always and forever. If they interpret you struggle gurgle as a tap then it was a verbal tap. Better trained/experienced referees will develop strategies like making eye contact with you or just having a better sense of when someone is in danger but until then they are still in the right. This sucks yes but it’s not about you or your win/loss record it comes down to safety.
Sadly referees are very often wrong, however arguing with them is a fruitless endeavor. 2. Should simply state, never argue with a referee who makes a bad call. If your coach thinks the call was legitimate, then it can be a learning experience, otherwise just chalk it up to bad karma.
John Bossi
John Bossi
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified23 forum posts1820/1000
2 year(s) ago
I reffed for13 years. Unless you scream or something (you are competing in adult or masters) the match shouldn't be called.

I make a ton of noise while working out of chokes, even if they aren't a real threat. Refs never stopped my matches.

Reffing isn't easy, but that is an easy one NOT to call.
John Bossi
John Bossi
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified23 forum posts1820/1000
2 year(s) ago
A big problem is what someone here stated: a ref is never wrong. I was told by experienced refs (though never from actual IBJJF refs) when I started the same thing. Stick to your call no matter what.

But I refused that outright, even though I started reffing as a blue belt. I would correct things as the match progressesld by reviewing the situation. I've even appoligized to athletes for bad calls, which I then got heat for. But integrity is everything when reffing to me.

Sadly, this is not the norm, especially in the local events.
Bobby McMasters
Bobby McMasters
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1272 forum posts12800/1000
2 year(s) ago
...like making eye contact with you...
I've reffed matched where dudes were unconscious and making direct eye contact with me the whole time. No joke. Super weird experience to say the least. Just dead eyes. Gives me the heebeejeebies just thinking about it.

But to answer the OP, you can gurgle away. Go on with your bad self. Not a tap, as far as I'm concerned.
Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
2 year(s) ago
They could be a white belt no stripe goof ball but they are right. Always and forever.
This statement is wrong on so many levels.

Firstly, Belts don't matter. Some of the dumbest rules calls I've seen have been from seasoned black belts. For background, I make a point to take the IBJJF Rules Seminar every year, so I'm pretty up to date. It NEVER fails that I will hear a black belt make an incorrect statement about reaping, Advantages, or what ever, I'll point out they're wrong, and it never fails that I hear them say, "but I'm/he's a black belt". Unless you've been trained in the rules and refresh that training on a regular basis, you're probably doing something wrong. You're belt doesn't matter.

Secondly, Refs are wrong all the time! I had this happen to me at Europeans when a ref scored 4 points for a sweep and would have been out after the first match if a team mate hadn't gone to the head ref with his video pointing out the mistake. You as the athlete aren't allowed to contest the call, but that's what team mates and coaches are for. It is 100% allowed to contest a ref's call and should be done. Refs are human and fuck up all the time.
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified433 forum posts4005/400
2 year(s) ago
Those of you saying refs are wrong all the time and belts don't matter are missing the point, which was even if a ref is wrong their decision still stands. There is no recourse, you are just stuck with whatever they decide to do.

One of the ladies in our gym was in a match where her opponent started the match with strikes (should have been DQ'd), then tapped (match should have been over), then continued the match to lose on points. We got this all on tape and even after showing the referee the video he denied that anything we were saying happened. Luckily word got back to the promoter and he somewhat made it right by firing the ref and giving our competitor a year of free tournaments, but that didn't help her in that tournament.

At 2018 Master Worlds we watched a lady have multiple matches in her division, then the ref changed and the new ref immediately tried to DQ her for a non compliant gi. This was after she'd already been through uniform inspection and a few matches. WTF? Once you're through inspection you should be good to go. And her gi was fine. But both her opponent and the new ref were not blonde haired and blue eyed like she was. The only thing that saved her was that her opponent had some integrity and a spare gi, which was less compliant than the one she started with, that she let her borrow.

And don't even get me started on the local shows. We have referees that don't know their left from their right, green from red, or seemingly which match they are actually supposed to be officiating.

But all of these referees were right because there was nothing that could be done in the moment to fix their monumental example of a shining snafu. Kudos to the .01% of officials who are willing to admit they made a mistake and correct it as much as possible.
Mark Gilston
Mark Gilston
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified200 forum posts6335/1000
2 year(s) ago
But all of these referees were right because there was nothing that could be done in the moment to fix their monumental example of a shining snafu. Kudos to the .01% of officials who are willing to admit they made a mistake and correct it as much as possible.
You're contradicting yourself, or else redefining "right". "Right" usually means "correct" which clearly these referees were not. I don't think anyone is denying that what a referee says stands, but it certainly doesn't make it right. It's nice to hear about one who was fired for incompetence or partiality though.
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified433 forum posts4005/400
2 year(s) ago
You're contradicting yourself, or else redefining 'right'. 'Right' usually means 'correct' which clearly these referees were not. I don't think anyone is denying that what a referee says stands, but it certainly doesn't make it right. It's nice to hear about one who was fired for incompetence or partiality though.
Again, you are missing the point.
Jorgen Matsi
Jorgen Matsi
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified1772 forum posts17315/1000
2 year(s) ago
Bad call by the ref.

I've always thought this indicates screaming. Gurgling (while in a chokehold) does not seem to indicate "pain" to me. You can go to sleep without pain and this is fine...
Alex
Alex
Brown beltVerified9 forum posts1220/700
2 year(s) ago
If gurgling counts as a verbal tap, how am I supposed to bait a von flue?!

No, you didn't tap.
Brian Van Miltenburg
Brian Van Miltenburg
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified117 forum posts6070/1000
2 year(s) ago
Gurgling is not a verbal tap. But if there are other signs that the athlete might be out, like relaxing, going limp, eyes rolling etc. It might warrant a stoppage. Refs have to make split decisions, and make sure the athletes are safe. Sometimes they mess up. But at least you get to fight another day.
Brian Van Miltenburg
Brian Van Miltenburg
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified117 forum posts6070/1000
2 year(s) ago
Also as a ref Ive been on both ends of the stick. I messed up some calls, but more often I was right, but the spectators saw it differently. Either way youre going to get people argueing. To be honest its one of the reasons I stopped reffing at tournaments (just in house stuff now).
David 'nemo' Tekiela
David 'nemo' Tekiela
Black beltVerified17 forum posts1925/1000
2 year(s) ago
Sounds like a mistake was made in the heat of the moment. Refs are human and stuff happens. Stinks, but the match isn't gonna be overturned so take your lump and move on.

As an aside I give props to anyone who regularly refs grappling matches. The sport is filled with hotheads (more than non combat sports IMO) that are looking for any chance to run in and puff their chests out.

Especially hot heads that don't train.

Especially especially hot heads that don't train and are living vicariously through their kids matches.

I've reffed events a few times and it is 100% not for me.

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