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Subjectivity of belt
2 year(s) ago • 2597 views • 55 replies
JTPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Coach's and professors, what do you look for at each belt. I know many schools and instructors look for different things. What do you for at a particular belt level?
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Blue belt needs to know how and when to tap. Knowing basic positions and at execute at least one movement from each is plenty. Solid defense in most areas.
Purple belt should know the basics in all aspects of jiu-jitsu, able to adapt in different situations. Capable offense.
Brown belt should be able to build a game for themselves, should handle lower belts fairly easily and hold their own against black belts. Should be able to coach or at least assist a class.
Black belt should have a deeper understanding of jiu-jitsu. Stuck around long enough, might as well continue until last breath.
Purple belt should know the basics in all aspects of jiu-jitsu, able to adapt in different situations. Capable offense.
Brown belt should be able to build a game for themselves, should handle lower belts fairly easily and hold their own against black belts. Should be able to coach or at least assist a class.
Black belt should have a deeper understanding of jiu-jitsu. Stuck around long enough, might as well continue until last breath.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I wrote a blog post on this a little while ago: https://www.opensourcebjj[...]promotions
And yes, promotions can be very subjective.
And yes, promotions can be very subjective.
BVBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think every next belt should be their former belts senior. Meaning you should be able to outroll your former belt level on a technical and practical way.
Blue belts should have some sense of direction in their game.
Purple belts should have a clear plan which has been crystalized, meaning if they apply this game to anyone it should be very effective
Brown belts should basically have no holes in their game any more. And be competitive with black belts.
Black belts should have deep understanding of jiu jitsu and be able to teach principles to their students.
Where it gets difficult though, is when you have to differentiate between factors like age, recreative/competitive, sex, weight etc. Thats why we always discuss belt promotions in a team of instructors, in stead of just having it depend on my opinion alone.
Blue belts should have some sense of direction in their game.
Purple belts should have a clear plan which has been crystalized, meaning if they apply this game to anyone it should be very effective
Brown belts should basically have no holes in their game any more. And be competitive with black belts.
Black belts should have deep understanding of jiu jitsu and be able to teach principles to their students.
Where it gets difficult though, is when you have to differentiate between factors like age, recreative/competitive, sex, weight etc. Thats why we always discuss belt promotions in a team of instructors, in stead of just having it depend on my opinion alone.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think every next belt should be their former belts senior. Meaning you should be able to outroll your former belt level on a technical and practical way.
I don't think I'd ever be able to beat my brown or possibly purple belt self. Their bodies were in way better shape.
JCPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I don't think I'd ever be able to beat my brown or possibly purple belt self. Their bodies were in way better shape.
I thought the exact same thing when I read that. I'm nowhere near the grappler I was 2 years ago. If I wasn't a brown belt then I never will be.
BVBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I looked at my old high school exams and dont think I can pass them again now. Ive lost that ability but gained a lot of others. I couldnt run a business back then, im doing it now.
So yeah skills and knowledge fade and our bodies change. But only because you are being exposed to different factors.
So yeah skills and knowledge fade and our bodies change. But only because you are being exposed to different factors.
FPBrown beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I looked at my old high school exams and dont think I can pass them again now. Ive lost that ability but gained a lot of others. I couldnt run a business back then, im doing it now. So yeah skills and knowledge fade and our bodies change. But only because you are being exposed to different factors.
Hello, I think the confusion stemmed from the "practical way" statement. I agree that a higher belt should be a better practitioner and applicator of the driving principals of BJJ when compared to his previous self. However, physical variables play a huge part on the practicality of the technical superiority.
You have a huge point in the fact that while some aspects fade, others take over. It's interesting how everyone develops their game through time and tailor certain aspects of their game to their limitations or beliefs. This last part would answer the OP I suppose. We are all on separate BJJ journeys that intertwine with others. A subjective approach on grading, from both coach and student, is vital in the way BJJ is approached I believe.
You have a huge point in the fact that while some aspects fade, others take over. It's interesting how everyone develops their game through time and tailor certain aspects of their game to their limitations or beliefs. This last part would answer the OP I suppose. We are all on separate BJJ journeys that intertwine with others. A subjective approach on grading, from both coach and student, is vital in the way BJJ is approached I believe.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
JJBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Also depends on the styles you have chosen to develop.
Those who chose to rely on skillsets that involve more athletic and explosive movements will probably see a greater loss of ability in sparring if they also chose not to adapt as they get older and more injured.
People that chose to work on more efficient, fundamental and slower based games will notice less of a difference as they get older. Everyone will notice some change, but the scale of that impact will not be nearly as bad and quick for those who never relied on athletic components to begin with and also developed their defensive capabilities and did not depend on aggressive fast styles.
Those who chose to rely on skillsets that involve more athletic and explosive movements will probably see a greater loss of ability in sparring if they also chose not to adapt as they get older and more injured.
People that chose to work on more efficient, fundamental and slower based games will notice less of a difference as they get older. Everyone will notice some change, but the scale of that impact will not be nearly as bad and quick for those who never relied on athletic components to begin with and also developed their defensive capabilities and did not depend on aggressive fast styles.
BVBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Hello, I think the confusion stemmed from the 'practical way' statement. I agree that a higher belt should be a better practitioner and applicator of the driving principals of BJJ when compared to his previous self. However, physical variables play a huge part on the practicality of the technical superiority.
I agree that physical variables defenitely make things complicated. I think you phrased my statement better than me, I agree with what you said there.
While I was talking about a higher belt being able to outroll lower belts, it turnt into a metaphorical topic haha. Becoming older I notice I have become better at shutting down games, while my reactions and explosiveness fade. Great points have been made about changing your game from a dynamic flexible style to a methodical pressure based game. I do think I will be able to shut down my game when I was a purple/brown belt.
While I was talking about a higher belt being able to outroll lower belts, it turnt into a metaphorical topic haha. Becoming older I notice I have become better at shutting down games, while my reactions and explosiveness fade. Great points have been made about changing your game from a dynamic flexible style to a methodical pressure based game. I do think I will be able to shut down my game when I was a purple/brown belt.
LSBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I use these for blue right now. These are first draughts. I m not married to these. I can only upload one pic so if you want to see purple and brown let me know
AMBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I use these for blue right now. These are first draughts. I m not married to these. I can only upload one pic so if you want to see purple and brown let me know
I like these ideas, would love to see purple and brown.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
White belt- knows the basic positions, Is able to initiate defense in all situations. Even if it wasn’t effective in the end. They stop spazzing, And start slowing down. They know a Couple submissions from each position. Most importantly, defense.
Blue - The toolbox of tricks. This person becomes a living database of moves and submissions. They Start to impose their game on other people. Their success rate with white belts dramatically increases. They are an active sponge of techniques.
Purple- Attacks are now starting to be chained together. There is a smoothness to their game. Movement is much more crisp and clean. The white belts and blue belts know they’re in for a hard time when the purple gets on the mat. They are OK releasing a submission to chain to the next one. They know just as many techniques as a Blackbelt
Brown- The belt of refinement. They seek refinement of moves, They start to become an instructor or mentor people go to. They are much more focused on the nuances of small details. This is where the blade becomes sharpened,
Blackbelt - Time to start all over and relearn everything from scratch
Blue - The toolbox of tricks. This person becomes a living database of moves and submissions. They Start to impose their game on other people. Their success rate with white belts dramatically increases. They are an active sponge of techniques.
Purple- Attacks are now starting to be chained together. There is a smoothness to their game. Movement is much more crisp and clean. The white belts and blue belts know they’re in for a hard time when the purple gets on the mat. They are OK releasing a submission to chain to the next one. They know just as many techniques as a Blackbelt
Brown- The belt of refinement. They seek refinement of moves, They start to become an instructor or mentor people go to. They are much more focused on the nuances of small details. This is where the blade becomes sharpened,
Blackbelt - Time to start all over and relearn everything from scratch
MGBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Purple Belt ... They know just as many techniques as a Blackbelt
I have to disagree with this one. There are a huge number of techniques which I only begin to teach when someone reaches brown belt. Mostly specific situation counters and techniques which require real finesse and understanding of movement and body mechanics. I find that most lower belts just plow through them without really appreciating the importance of the details or understanding when they are applicable.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I have to disagree with this one. There are a huge number of techniques which I only begin to teach when someone reaches brown belt. Mostly specific situation counters and techniques which require real finesse and understanding of movement and body mechanics. I find that most lower belts just plow through them without really appreciating the importance of the details or understanding when they are applicable.
To each his own. This phrase comes from many black belts and red belts, And is very old-school. This is a homage to all the people that have brought me up over the last 25 years. Even a quick Google search, you’ll see how many Masters have said this. I don’t take credit for this statement, but I do like it. It’s definitely something that I say to my purple belts, it elicits a response in them, and gets them moving
FPBrown beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
White belt- knows the basic positions, Is able to initiate defense in all situations. Even if it wasn’t effective in the end. They stop spazzing, And start slowing down. They know a Couple submissions from each position. Most importantly, defense. Blue - The toolbox of tricks. This person becomes a living database of moves and submissions. They Start to impose their game on other people. Their success rate with white belts dramatically increases. They are an active sponge of techniques. Purple- Attacks are now starting to be chained together. There is a smoothness to their game. Movement is much more crisp and clean. The white belts and blue belts know they’re in for a hard time when the purple gets on the mat. They are OK releasing a submission to chain to the next one. They know just as many techniques as a Blackbelt Brown- The belt of refinement. They seek refinement of moves, They start to become an instructor or mentor people go to. They are much more focused on the nuances of small details. This is where the blade becomes sharpened, Blackbelt - Time to start all over and relearn everything from scratch
Not sure about the "they stop spazzing" being on the white belt there. I, and I'm sure many others here, have met higher belts that still have that directionless power jerkiness to their game from time to time! I would perhaps lean towards a statement such as "learn to identify when they are or have spazzed during a roll" for white belts.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Not sure about the 'they stop spazzing' being on the white belt there. I, and I'm sure many others here, have met higher belts that still have that directionless power jerkiness to their game from time to time! I would perhaps lean towards a statement such as 'learn to identify when they are or have spazzed during a roll' for white belts.
Well, it’s a good thing that I am out there creating different standards than everyone else. Because you’re gonna be a white belt with me forever until that changes. If you’re not sure about that being a requirement, maybe you should look into it. It’s a perfect time to calm someone down, Before they really start learning some techniques that could hurt someone
FPBrown beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Well, it’s a good thing that I am out there creating different standards than everyone else. Because you’re gonna be a white belt with me forever until that changes. If you’re not sure about that being a requirement, maybe you should look into it. It’s a perfect time to calm someone down, Before they really start learning some techniques that could hurt someone
I absolutely agree, don't misunderstand my comment as a disagreement. My reply was a comment on the overall landscape and that a chunk of individuals do still have that element to their approach. Call it being ironic if you will.
On a parallel note, and to pick your brain here, would you agree that "being a good Uke/partner" should sit at white belt? I personally believe that learning how to be the receiving partner goes a long way in calming the spazzing down. It's incredible how overlooked being a good uke can be when it is an integral part of learning anything grappling related.
On a parallel note, and to pick your brain here, would you agree that "being a good Uke/partner" should sit at white belt? I personally believe that learning how to be the receiving partner goes a long way in calming the spazzing down. It's incredible how overlooked being a good uke can be when it is an integral part of learning anything grappling related.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
So for me, spazzing doesn’t have anything to do with that. Many professors will may disagree on this point. But the years I’ve been teaching, I think I have identified where the spaz usually comes from. It comes from a brand new person, not wanting to get controlled, not wanting to lose, doing everything they can to survive. So I tried to initiate a test many years ago. I said what if I teach my white belts, blackbelt level defense. What if I teach them to be so hard to beat, that visiting black belts come in and say “damn these guys are tough to finish”. So I changed the way I taught. I Decided to Focus on nothing but defense for white belts. About two years later, I had some three striped white belts. And I realize that the new people coming in were spazzing, but those white belts were relaxed, They controlled the opponent. If they got into a bad situation, they defended. I’d have visiting black belts, Brown belts, purple belts visit. As well as my own internally. I saw something that was shocking. Those white belts were a lot more confident. They got into a bad situation and knew they had to get a defensive position. The whole dynamic of the class changed. Now the new people coming in, wanted to be like the senior level white belts. That’s obtainable goal. Not the Blackbelt who’s been there for ever. I had solved the spasing problem at white. And it’s very known in my gym if you want a blue belt, you need to calm down and defend.
I absolutely agree, don't misunderstand my comment as a disagreement. My reply was a comment on the overall landscape and that a chunk of individuals do still have that element to their approach. Call it being ironic if you will. On a parallel note, and to pick your brain here, would you agree that 'being a good Uke/partner' should sit at white belt? I personally believe that learning how to be the receiving partner goes a long way in calming the spazzing down. It's incredible how overlooked being a good uke can be when it is an integral part of learning anything grappling related.
So for me, spazzing doesn’t have anything to do with that. Many professors will may disagree on this point. But the years I’ve been teaching, I think I have identified where the spaz usually comes from. It comes from a brand new person, not wanting to get controlled, not wanting to lose, doing everything they can to survive. So I tried to initiate a test many years ago. I said what if I teach my white belts, blackbelt level defense. What if I teach them to be so hard to beat, that visiting black belts come in and say “damn these guys are tough to finish”. So I changed the way I taught. I Decided to Focus on nothing but defense for white belts. About two years later, I had some three striped white belts. And I realize that the new people coming in were spazzing, but those white belts were relaxed, They controlled the opponent. If they got into a bad situation, they defended. I’d have visiting black belts, Brown belts, purple belts visit. As well as my own internally. I saw something that was shocking. Those white belts were a lot more confident. They got into a bad situation and knew they had to get a defensive position. The whole dynamic of the class changed. Now the new people coming in, wanted to be like the senior level white belts. That’s obtainable goal. Not the Blackbelt who’s been there for ever. I had solved the spasing problem at white. And it’s very known in my gym if you want a blue belt, you need to calm down and defend.
JCPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
What if the only difference between a spazzy white belt and an explosive purple belt is purpose? The explosive purple belt knows where they're going and the spazzy white belt is just going.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
What if the only difference between a spazzy white belt and an explosive purple belt is purpose? The explosive purple belt knows where they're going and the spazzy white belt is just going.
Is there a difference between explosive and spazzing? It comes down to how you defined the terms. For me:
Spazzing means you’re uncontrolled and have the propensity to kick somebody in the face by accident.
Explosive means that you Use your attributes to accomplish the technique.
Neither word includes accuracy and precision to me.
Spazzing means you’re uncontrolled and have the propensity to kick somebody in the face by accident.
Explosive means that you Use your attributes to accomplish the technique.
Neither word includes accuracy and precision to me.
FPBrown beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
What if the only difference between a spazzy white belt and an explosive purple belt is purpose? The explosive purple belt knows where they're going and the spazzy white belt is just going.
These are the questions that I joined this site for!
If the purple belt doesn't achieve what they exploded for, would it then be classed as "spazzing"? I joke of course.
Personally, I could say that spazzing is defined by it's lack of direction and technique. An explosive movement that is directed and incorporates the necessary technical elements, even if slightly sloppy, is an explosive technique. I will let more senior members provide their POV on this as it may differ.
If the purple belt doesn't achieve what they exploded for, would it then be classed as "spazzing"? I joke of course.
Personally, I could say that spazzing is defined by it's lack of direction and technique. An explosive movement that is directed and incorporates the necessary technical elements, even if slightly sloppy, is an explosive technique. I will let more senior members provide their POV on this as it may differ.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
These are the questions that I joined this site for! If the purple belt doesn't achieve what they exploded for, would it then be classed as 'spazzing'? I joke of course. Personally, I could say that spazzing is defined by it's lack of direction and technique. An explosive movement that is directed and incorporates the necessary technical elements, even if slightly sloppy, is an explosive technique. I will let more senior members provide their POV on this as it may differ.
I think that’s close to how I defined it. It’s easy to spot spazzing. You know, just from watching it that somebody may get kicked in the face
JABlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I use these for blue right now. These are first draughts. I m not married to these. I can only upload one pic so if you want to see purple and brown let me know
As would I
LSBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think spazzing is about safety right? High level guys can have all out brawls and no one gets hurt any more for it.
People solving with with speed and strength what they cannot accomplish technically.
I dont mind people being wild or agressive. I mind them being unsafe.
People solving with with speed and strength what they cannot accomplish technically.
I dont mind people being wild or agressive. I mind them being unsafe.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think spazzing is about safety right? High level guys can have all out brawls and no one gets hurt any more for it. People solving with with speed and strength what they cannot accomplish technically. I dont mind people being wild or agressive. I mind them being unsafe.
I totally agree. It’s about safety. Safety for others, but more importantly safety for them. Their spaz could end up busting something on themselves because they don’t understand the movement or situation they are in. I totally agree. It’s about safety.
LSBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
These are what i have for purple and brown. Mind you. These arent meant as absolutes. You can grow into a belt. So i do hand out blue and purple even if someone doesnt meet all the criteria yet.
I do expect these to change in the near future as my understanding gets deeper and as the sport evolves.
I do expect these to change in the near future as my understanding gets deeper and as the sport evolves.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
These are what i have for purple and brown. Mind you. These arent meant as absolutes. You can grow into a belt. So i do hand out blue and purple even if someone doesnt meet all the criteria yet. I do expect these to change in the near future as my understanding gets deeper and as the sport evolves.
There are some solid concepts here. How do you track students against these concepts? Meaning, if you watch someone roll, do you remember everything they did? Or do they demonstrate it over multiple rolls. How do you turn the promotion requirements into a promotion metric?
MGBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
would you agree that 'being a good Uke/partner' should sit at white belt? I personally believe that learning how to be the receiving partner goes a long way in calming the spazzing down. It's incredible how overlooked being a good uke can be when it is an integral part of learning anything grappling related.
I've taught judo for well over 40 years, and being a good uke is probably one of the 3 most important aspects of learning and advancing. Sadly though, it is very difficult to teach, especially with children. If it were a requirement to move on from white belt, I think half the people who take up judo would take 3 years or more to reach yellow. I find many green belts and even some brown belts are still really lousy at being a good training partner, and that goes for BJJ just as much as for judo.
LSBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
There are some solid concepts here. How do you track students against these concepts? Meaning, if you watch someone roll, do you remember everything they did? Or do they demonstrate it over multiple rolls. How do you turn the promotion requirements into a promotion metric?
My classes revolve around them. So at the danger of triggering people, my classes are mostly something akin to ecological.
So just last night my class revolved entirely around “Exit strategies.” However these strategies are often implicit in other classes.
Every class we practice inside position, connecting to our partner, destabilization, contraction vs extension, etc.
So I actually get to see a lot of these concepts in my students. At the same time it is easy for me to see this in people that (have) train(ed) elsewhere, no matter their style or lineage
So just last night my class revolved entirely around “Exit strategies.” However these strategies are often implicit in other classes.
Every class we practice inside position, connecting to our partner, destabilization, contraction vs extension, etc.
So I actually get to see a lot of these concepts in my students. At the same time it is easy for me to see this in people that (have) train(ed) elsewhere, no matter their style or lineage
