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Gracie Combatives
2 year(s) ago • 3470 views • 53 replies
EBBlue beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
My background is in a traditional martial art, Shaolin. It doesn’t address grappling so I started filling those gaps with the Gracie Combatives program. This program made my transition to a BJJ gym smooth. My points to starting this conversation:
1. is to state that in my opinion ALL traditional martial artist should incorporate the Gracie Combatives Or a similar type program or join a school and at least get to blue.
2. Is that individuals who just train sport BJJ would find value in the Gracie Combatives program IF they have not considered the threat of strikes in a confrontation.
3. It provides a structured way to train and start a Gracie garage which is a great way for individuals who don’t like the typical BJJ gym culture and intensity or if they are an older person to still benefit and enjoy BJJ.
I have since obtained my Blue Belt but I still train the Combatives and plan on still getting my Combatives belt.
1. is to state that in my opinion ALL traditional martial artist should incorporate the Gracie Combatives Or a similar type program or join a school and at least get to blue.
2. Is that individuals who just train sport BJJ would find value in the Gracie Combatives program IF they have not considered the threat of strikes in a confrontation.
3. It provides a structured way to train and start a Gracie garage which is a great way for individuals who don’t like the typical BJJ gym culture and intensity or if they are an older person to still benefit and enjoy BJJ.
I have since obtained my Blue Belt but I still train the Combatives and plan on still getting my Combatives belt.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
TMBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
My background is in a traditional martial art, Shaolin. It doesn’t address grappling so I started filling those gaps with the Gracie Combatives program. This program made my transition to a BJJ gym smooth. My points to starting this conversation: 1. is to state that in my opinion ALL traditional martial artist should incorporate the Gracie Combatives 2. Is that individuals who just train sport BJJ would find value in the Gracie Combatives program IF they have not considered the threat of strikes in a confrontation. 3. It provides a structured way to train and start a Gracie garage which is a great way for individuals who don’t like the typical BJJ gym culture and intensity or if they are an older person to still benefit and enjoy BJJ. I have since obtained my Blue Belt but I still train the Combatives and plan on still getting my Combatives belt.
Gracie combatives is a great program to learn and have strong fundamentals and be much more street safe!
I went through the Gracie combatives program and have nothing bad to say about it!
10/10 recommend Forsure!
I went through the Gracie combatives program and have nothing bad to say about it!
10/10 recommend Forsure!
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
It's a good way to get introduced to the martial art and self defense. If you already know basic self defense it's not worth it IMO.
RBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Gracie Combatives is A way - not THE or ONLY way. They're fantastic at marketing and certainly develop their avid followers effectively. I will say though, that if you aren't applying what you learned against active resistance, you are limiting your effectiveness A TON - regardless of what system you train in.
JCPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Gracie Combatives is A way - not THE or ONLY way. They're fantastic at marketing and certainly develop their avid followers effectively. I will say though, that if you aren't applying what you learned against active resistance, you are limiting your effectiveness A TON - regardless of what system you train in.
I came here to say this. As my friend from Arkansas likes to say, there's more than one way to mount a sheep. Just because something says Gracie on it doesn't make it the holy grail.
BNPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
My background is in a traditional martial art, Shaolin. It doesn’t address grappling so I started filling those gaps with the Gracie Combatives program. This program made my transition to a BJJ gym smooth. My points to starting this conversation: 1. is to state that in my opinion ALL traditional martial artist should incorporate the Gracie Combatives Or a similar type program or join a school and at least get to blue. 2. Is that individuals who just train sport BJJ would find value in the Gracie Combatives program IF they have not considered the threat of strikes in a confrontation. 3. It provides a structured way to train and start a Gracie garage which is a great way for individuals who don’t like the typical BJJ gym culture and intensity or if they are an older person to still benefit and enjoy BJJ. I have since obtained my Blue Belt but I still train the Combatives and plan on still getting my Combatives belt.
Perhaps controversial but...my responses;
1a. I would agree that all those wishing to be rounded martial artists should incorporate grappling with resistance. But many martial arts or artists are perfectly functional or intent without it.
1b. If they are adding BJJ, I don't see any advantage to Gracie Combatives over any other rounded BJJ training. But I there are obvious draw backs. (see below).
2a. Those who are focused entirely on sport jiu jitsu may benefit in general from training that considering strikes. But that benefit is not aligned to their specific focus on sport jiu jitsu. It's perfectly fine to be a specialist rather than a generalist.
2b. A high level sport BJJ guy would far more capable in a confrontation than a "combatives" blue belt (I'm unsure if the belts go higher).
3. Online resources are very common now. There are many many online programs facilitate training at home. Most practitioners who progress quickly do significant work outside of the gym.
A "gracie garage" is a marketing ploy. It's not more effective that a Garcia Garage, Giles Garage, or a Gordon Garage - in fact Id consider most of those resources to be an order of magnitude more useful the combative course.
The main issue I haves with the combative course is that it's heavily focused on marketing, over content. The vibe is very McDojo secret techniques from the Gracie Family, based on studies of "real" fights. Good online content exists, it consists of theory that people study and take back to the gym/open may and turn it into practical. Combative seems to encourage more of aimlessly following along approach.
The program is 23 one-hour classes. You need to do each lessons three times, to test for your belt. That's 69 hours. Plus an hour at home for a novice is not going to be as effective as an hour at the gym or open mat. Even if the course content was good, that is now where near enough time to award a belt. A blue belt is about 200hours of time. The above is at most 1 stripe imo.
1a. I would agree that all those wishing to be rounded martial artists should incorporate grappling with resistance. But many martial arts or artists are perfectly functional or intent without it.
1b. If they are adding BJJ, I don't see any advantage to Gracie Combatives over any other rounded BJJ training. But I there are obvious draw backs. (see below).
2a. Those who are focused entirely on sport jiu jitsu may benefit in general from training that considering strikes. But that benefit is not aligned to their specific focus on sport jiu jitsu. It's perfectly fine to be a specialist rather than a generalist.
2b. A high level sport BJJ guy would far more capable in a confrontation than a "combatives" blue belt (I'm unsure if the belts go higher).
3. Online resources are very common now. There are many many online programs facilitate training at home. Most practitioners who progress quickly do significant work outside of the gym.
A "gracie garage" is a marketing ploy. It's not more effective that a Garcia Garage, Giles Garage, or a Gordon Garage - in fact Id consider most of those resources to be an order of magnitude more useful the combative course.
The main issue I haves with the combative course is that it's heavily focused on marketing, over content. The vibe is very McDojo secret techniques from the Gracie Family, based on studies of "real" fights. Good online content exists, it consists of theory that people study and take back to the gym/open may and turn it into practical. Combative seems to encourage more of aimlessly following along approach.
The program is 23 one-hour classes. You need to do each lessons three times, to test for your belt. That's 69 hours. Plus an hour at home for a novice is not going to be as effective as an hour at the gym or open mat. Even if the course content was good, that is now where near enough time to award a belt. A blue belt is about 200hours of time. The above is at most 1 stripe imo.
![Slideyfoot [jun]](userimg/5e25cf311adfd.jpg){kind=small}
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Rener and Ryron are excellent teachers, they've come up with a well structured program. I bought it years ago when it first came out and was impressed by their teaching ability, I also found some of the later material in the various additional courses useful (hence the massive review I wrote back then: http://www.slideyfoot.com[...]rener.html ).
However, I would agree that the big drawback is the marketing guff that gives out the vibe "our grandfather was a god, 'sport' jiu jitsu is rubbish, only our jiu jitsu is worthwhile." Gracie Combatives is a collection of solid techniques, but it is definitely not the ONLY way to learn, or the best.
However, I would agree that the big drawback is the marketing guff that gives out the vibe "our grandfather was a god, 'sport' jiu jitsu is rubbish, only our jiu jitsu is worthwhile." Gracie Combatives is a collection of solid techniques, but it is definitely not the ONLY way to learn, or the best.
MMBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
The Gracie Combatives program acts as a filter. It makes it possible to distinguish techniques according to the context of the sporting competition or the self defense. This is a very interesting basic program. I recommand it.
BNPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
The Gracie Combatives program acts as a filter. It makes it possible to distinguish techniques according to the context of the sporting competition or the self defense. This is a very interesting basic program. I recommand it.
That sounds good it isolation. But when people have zero existing knowledge or ability of BJJ, then there is no techniques to distinguish into the context of sport or self defence.
Any program that gets people doping BJJ is positive, especially if it includes those who benefit from self defence aspect and would never be interesting in BJJ itself (in a sporting sense or a martial sense). I have no issue with it in that regard.
My issue is mainly with the awarding of belts via that methodology
Any program that gets people doping BJJ is positive, especially if it includes those who benefit from self defence aspect and would never be interesting in BJJ itself (in a sporting sense or a martial sense). I have no issue with it in that regard.
My issue is mainly with the awarding of belts via that methodology
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
That sounds good it isolation. But when people have zero existing knowledge or ability of BJJ, then there is no techniques to distinguish into the context of sport or self defence. Any program that gets people doping BJJ is positive, especially if it includes those who benefit from self defence aspect and would never be interesting in BJJ itself (in a sporting sense or a martial sense). I have no issue with it in that regard. My issue is mainly with the awarding of belts via that methodology
I assume you meant 'doing' rather than 'doping', as presumably you're not a massive fan of PEDs. :P
AFAIK, they have stopped handing out belts based purely on online evaluation. To get a proper belt, you now have to be evaluated in person.
AFAIK, they have stopped handing out belts based purely on online evaluation. To get a proper belt, you now have to be evaluated in person.
MMBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Thank you for this feedback.
We must distinguish the techniques. There are details that make all the difference. I love competitive sports but it's important to make the distinction. The Gracie Combatives online test allows you to obtain an intermediate belt between the white and the blue.
If you were awarded a purple belt by a BJJ instructor and you pass the official Gracie Combatives test, then Ryron and Rener would consider assessing your skills to see if your purple belt can be formally recognized by the Gracie University.
Best regards
We must distinguish the techniques. There are details that make all the difference. I love competitive sports but it's important to make the distinction. The Gracie Combatives online test allows you to obtain an intermediate belt between the white and the blue.
If you were awarded a purple belt by a BJJ instructor and you pass the official Gracie Combatives test, then Ryron and Rener would consider assessing your skills to see if your purple belt can be formally recognized by the Gracie University.
Best regards
BVBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Ive seen the program and its pretty good. Im not a big fan of the marketing behind it though.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Ive seen the program and its pretty good. Im not a big fan of the marketing behind it though.
The marketing is the main issue, I agree. If you completely ignore the marketing and just treat Gracie Combatives (and the follow up material, which is superior) like any other well made DVD/video instructional set, works better IMO.
JTPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Thank you for this feedback. We must distinguish the techniques. There are details that make all the difference. I love competitive sports but it's important to make the distinction. The Gracie Combatives online test allows you to obtain an intermediate belt between the white and the blue. If you were awarded a purple belt by a BJJ instructor and you pass the official Gracie Combatives test, then Ryron and Rener would consider assessing your skills to see if your purple belt can be formally recognized by the Gracie University. Best regards
Well how nice of them to consider
BNPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I assume you meant 'doing' rather than 'doping', as presumably you're not a massive fan of PEDs. :P AFAIK, they have stopped handing out belts based purely on online evaluation. To get a proper belt, you now have to be evaluated in person.
I did mean doing, but doping is probably just as accurate in modern BJJ. ;)
I don't think they have moved to in person only belts. The below is from the new Combatives 2.0 course which was released this year I think.
"Using this process, you will have the opportunity to video record yourself demonstrating the Gracie Combatives techniques before uploading the videos to the Gracie University Online Testing Center where an instructor will review and evaluate your performance (testing fees apply). If your test meets Gracie University standards, you will earn your Gracie Combatives Belt."
There is also the online Pink belt for the womens course.
THere are blue and purple belt stripe videos, but I don't think the promote online for those.
I don't think they have moved to in person only belts. The below is from the new Combatives 2.0 course which was released this year I think.
"Using this process, you will have the opportunity to video record yourself demonstrating the Gracie Combatives techniques before uploading the videos to the Gracie University Online Testing Center where an instructor will review and evaluate your performance (testing fees apply). If your test meets Gracie University standards, you will earn your Gracie Combatives Belt."
There is also the online Pink belt for the womens course.
THere are blue and purple belt stripe videos, but I don't think the promote online for those.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I did mean doing, but doping is probably just as accurate in modern BJJ. ;) I don't think they have moved to in person only belts. The below is from the new Combatives 2.0 course which was released this year I think. 'Using this process, you will have the opportunity to video record yourself demonstrating the Gracie Combatives techniques before uploading the videos to the Gracie University Online Testing Center where an instructor will review and evaluate your performance (testing fees apply). If your test meets Gracie University standards, you will earn your Gracie Combatives Belt.' There is also the online Pink belt for the womens course. THere are blue and purple belt stripe videos, but I don't think the promote online for those.
Yeah, the Gracie Combatives belt is the "provisional belt" option. AFAIK, to get your real belt, you then need to be evaluated in person. But it might have changed since I last looked, it's been a few years.
And of course it is still intentionally misleading, as they're not making a super clear distinction between "Gracie Combatives belt" and "actual legit BJJ belt."
And of course it is still intentionally misleading, as they're not making a super clear distinction between "Gracie Combatives belt" and "actual legit BJJ belt."
BVBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Reading this information, it almost sounds like two seperate arts, Gracie combatives and BJJ. You get tested on different things as well as different techniques.
BNPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Thank you for this feedback. We must distinguish the techniques. There are details that make all the difference. I love competitive sports but it's important to make the distinction. The Gracie Combatives online test allows you to obtain an intermediate belt between the white and the blue. If you were awarded a purple belt by a BJJ instructor and you pass the official Gracie Combatives test, then Ryron and Rener would consider assessing your skills to see if your purple belt can be formally recognized by the Gracie University. Best regards
I think that neatly sums up the issues (for me) with Combatives in addition to the general marketing.
Any competent jiu jitsu coach can distinguish the techniques. Presenting this as unique is disingenuous. Which is a huge part of the positioning.
Awarding a belt online, even an intermediate belt, to somebody you've never seen roll or train live is at best lazy, and at worst a cash grab. You have no way to know what level somebody is at via a video submission they have cherry picked for uploading.
If I pass a test they might recognise my purple belt. That's hilariously generous of them. But Gracie university are not the arbiters of rank. That is the typical Gracie elitism somebody referenced above. Imagine a world champion being told his belt wasn't recognised until he passed a a beginners course and earned his combatives belt.
Any competent jiu jitsu coach can distinguish the techniques. Presenting this as unique is disingenuous. Which is a huge part of the positioning.
Awarding a belt online, even an intermediate belt, to somebody you've never seen roll or train live is at best lazy, and at worst a cash grab. You have no way to know what level somebody is at via a video submission they have cherry picked for uploading.
If I pass a test they might recognise my purple belt. That's hilariously generous of them. But Gracie university are not the arbiters of rank. That is the typical Gracie elitism somebody referenced above. Imagine a world champion being told his belt wasn't recognised until he passed a a beginners course and earned his combatives belt.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think that neatly sums up the issues (for me) with Combatives in addition to the general marketing. Any competent jiu jitsu coach can distinguish the techniques. Presenting this as unique is disingenuous. Which is a huge part of the positioning. Awarding a belt online, even an intermediate belt, to somebody you've never seen roll or train live is at best lazy, and at worst a cash grab. You have no way to know what level somebody is at via a video submission they have cherry picked for uploading. If I pass a test they might recognise my purple belt. That's hilariously generous of them. But Gracie university are not the arbiters of rank. That is the typical Gracie elitism somebody referenced above. Imagine a world champion being told his belt wasn't recognised until he passed a a beginners course and earned his combatives belt.
Yep, all valid points. I've met and rolled with Rener, where I tried to raise some of those points in the interview I did with him (back in my journalism days when I was working for Jiu Jitsu Style Magazine).
On balance I think he's a positive force in BJJ, but the marketing is problematic and often kinda offensive to other clubs. There's a strong "only WE hold the truth of BJJ, everything else is inferior."
Kind of like the more evangelical ecological training people, come to think of it. ;)
On balance I think he's a positive force in BJJ, but the marketing is problematic and often kinda offensive to other clubs. There's a strong "only WE hold the truth of BJJ, everything else is inferior."
Kind of like the more evangelical ecological training people, come to think of it. ;)
MMBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Thank you for your answers.
I think we need to go back to understand. It was Helio Gracie who modified Maeda's techniques. It was Rorion Gracie who popularized the UFC in 1993. He registered the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu trademark to protect his father's art. Jiu-Jitsu then took different directions. MMA, Sports Jiu-Jitsu and Self-defense. Each school is free to invent or imitate new techniques. But to preserve culture, effectiveness in combat and unify all of these schools it was necessary to create a common basic program. Self Defense Unit and Gracie Combatives are legitimate programs in that sense.
I invite you to watch the Future of Jiu-Jitsu video : https://www.youtube.com/w[...]eRaWLVOuPQ
I agree 100% with this video. And you ?
Best regards
I think we need to go back to understand. It was Helio Gracie who modified Maeda's techniques. It was Rorion Gracie who popularized the UFC in 1993. He registered the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu trademark to protect his father's art. Jiu-Jitsu then took different directions. MMA, Sports Jiu-Jitsu and Self-defense. Each school is free to invent or imitate new techniques. But to preserve culture, effectiveness in combat and unify all of these schools it was necessary to create a common basic program. Self Defense Unit and Gracie Combatives are legitimate programs in that sense.
I invite you to watch the Future of Jiu-Jitsu video : https://www.youtube.com/w[...]eRaWLVOuPQ
I agree 100% with this video. And you ?
Best regards
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Thank you for your answers. I think we need to go back to understand. It was Helio Gracie who modified Maeda's techniques. It was Rorion Gracie who popularized the UFC in 1993. He registered the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu trademark to protect his father's art. Jiu-Jitsu then took different directions. MMA, Sports Jiu-Jitsu and Self-defense. Each school is free to invent or imitate new techniques. But to preserve culture, effectiveness in combat and unify all of these schools it was necessary to create a common basic program. Self Defense Unit and Gracie Combatives are legitimate programs in that sense. I invite you to watch the Future of Jiu-Jitsu video : https://www.youtube.com/w[...]eRaWLVOuPQ I agree 100% with this video. And you ? Best regards
Helio didn't modify anything much, that's some of the marketing guff we've been talking about. He also VERY much did not do that on his own.
Along with his numerous brothers (including the ones Rorion et al never seem to mention, like George, who was a far more competent fighter than Helio ever was), there are plenty of other figures outside the Gracie family who were part of BJJ's development.
E.g., Donato Pires dos Reis. This gentleman doesn't tend to appear in the Gracie Combatives marketing material either, as HE is the guy who actually learned from Maeda directly. Credible histories of BJJ like 'Choque' argue that the evidence suggests Helio had limited contact with Maeda himself, if indeed any.
According to 'Choque', Carlos Gracie did not found a Rio academy in 1925. Instead, some years later, he took over the academy of the man Pedreira believes was his main instructor, Donato Pires dos Reis. Both Carlos and George Gracie were listed as assistant instructors at Pires dos Reis' Academia de Jiu Jitsu, which Pires dos Reis opened on rua Marquez de Abrantes n.106 in 1930. Helio had nothing to do with it. He must have therefore got most of his training from older bro, Carlos Gracie.
By December 1931, Pires dos Reis had either left or been pushed out: his old school was now being referred to as the Academia Gracie.
Along with his numerous brothers (including the ones Rorion et al never seem to mention, like George, who was a far more competent fighter than Helio ever was), there are plenty of other figures outside the Gracie family who were part of BJJ's development.
E.g., Donato Pires dos Reis. This gentleman doesn't tend to appear in the Gracie Combatives marketing material either, as HE is the guy who actually learned from Maeda directly. Credible histories of BJJ like 'Choque' argue that the evidence suggests Helio had limited contact with Maeda himself, if indeed any.
According to 'Choque', Carlos Gracie did not found a Rio academy in 1925. Instead, some years later, he took over the academy of the man Pedreira believes was his main instructor, Donato Pires dos Reis. Both Carlos and George Gracie were listed as assistant instructors at Pires dos Reis' Academia de Jiu Jitsu, which Pires dos Reis opened on rua Marquez de Abrantes n.106 in 1930. Helio had nothing to do with it. He must have therefore got most of his training from older bro, Carlos Gracie.
By December 1931, Pires dos Reis had either left or been pushed out: his old school was now being referred to as the Academia Gracie.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
BNPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Reading this information, it almost sounds like two seperate arts, Gracie combatives and BJJ. You get tested on different things as well as different techniques.
The list of techniques I have seen is straight from BJJ.
Not to mention the fact that Rener & Ryron have embody BJJ. It would be pretty strange if they start handing out belts in a different martial art.
Not the full list, this is typical;
Americana
Double Leg
Double Under
Elbow Escape
Guillotine Choke
Kimura
Pull Guard
Shrimp Escape
Straight Armlock
R.N.C.
Triangle Choke
Tripod Sweep
Not to mention the fact that Rener & Ryron have embody BJJ. It would be pretty strange if they start handing out belts in a different martial art.
Not the full list, this is typical;
Americana
Double Leg
Double Under
Elbow Escape
Guillotine Choke
Kimura
Pull Guard
Shrimp Escape
Straight Armlock
R.N.C.
Triangle Choke
Tripod Sweep
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
The list of techniques I have seen is straight from BJJ. Not to mention the fact that Rener & Ryron have embody BJJ. It would be pretty strange if they start handing out belts in a different martial art. Not the full list, this is typical; Americana Double Leg Double Under Elbow Escape Guillotine Choke Kimura Pull Guard Shrimp Escape Straight Armlock R.N.C. Triangle Choke Tripod Sweep
Yep, the difference is the marketing, not the content that is being marketed. Rener and Ryron make a big deal about 'sport' vs 'self-defence', but it's a false dichotomy.
Like I said, I've trained with Rener, his class was much the same as any other BJJ school I've visited, in terms of content.
Like I said, I've trained with Rener, his class was much the same as any other BJJ school I've visited, in terms of content.
BVBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Imo the techniques arent what make an art. In judo, mma or any other kind of grappling art I imagine the list of techniques would be similar (though probably named differently). Similar to how you have different kinds of karate and tae kwondo.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Imo the techniques arent what make an art. In judo, mma or any other kind of grappling art I imagine the list of techniques would be similar (though probably named differently). Similar to how you have different kinds of karate and tae kwondo.
Maybe, although TKD is basically karate. The Koreans just didn't want to call it that after the occupation, so they made up a spurious 'ancient history' for TKD. When it actually only dates back to the 20th century.
So that makes for a relevant comparison. Though the difference between TKD and karate is more significant. They have different rules, different training equipment (slightly: dobok instead of a gi), different terminology, etc.
BJJ and what Rorion etc try to distinguish as GJJ don't have those kind of differences. Same training equipment, same terminology (kimura, armbar, triangle etc), taught and applied in much the same way (based on my first hand experience of attending Rener's class, at least).
The main difference is marketing. And I guess hiding from comps (the claim is they're not 'real' enough, which is a very aikido thing to say), because Rener and Ryron stopped being able to control the parameters (to be fair, they were pretty good competitors back in the day, at various comps).
So that makes for a relevant comparison. Though the difference between TKD and karate is more significant. They have different rules, different training equipment (slightly: dobok instead of a gi), different terminology, etc.
BJJ and what Rorion etc try to distinguish as GJJ don't have those kind of differences. Same training equipment, same terminology (kimura, armbar, triangle etc), taught and applied in much the same way (based on my first hand experience of attending Rener's class, at least).
The main difference is marketing. And I guess hiding from comps (the claim is they're not 'real' enough, which is a very aikido thing to say), because Rener and Ryron stopped being able to control the parameters (to be fair, they were pretty good competitors back in the day, at various comps).
Edited 2 year(s) ago
MMBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Good, It's very interesting to read you.
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is a registered trademark. All Gracie University programs are registered trademarks. There are technical programs for children, women, law enforcement...
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a sport today. IBJJF is the most recognized of all the federations. The rules of the IBJJF are clear, no punches and a points counting system.
MMA is also a sport. The UFC is the largest organization. There are rules there too. 5 minute rounds, gloves... This favors striking sports.
Some Jiu-Jitsu schools do not teach blocking punches from the ground or even standing, focusing only on the IBJJF rules of competition.
It's the same thing in self-defense. Many schools do not teach self-defense against a knife or gun...
The idea here is to offer a basic program that addresses self-defense, MMA and sports Jiu-Jitsu. Afterwards everyone is free to join or not.
The question is simple. Either we have a common basic program created directly by the founding members. Either we let schools develop as they see fit ?
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is a registered trademark. All Gracie University programs are registered trademarks. There are technical programs for children, women, law enforcement...
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a sport today. IBJJF is the most recognized of all the federations. The rules of the IBJJF are clear, no punches and a points counting system.
MMA is also a sport. The UFC is the largest organization. There are rules there too. 5 minute rounds, gloves... This favors striking sports.
Some Jiu-Jitsu schools do not teach blocking punches from the ground or even standing, focusing only on the IBJJF rules of competition.
It's the same thing in self-defense. Many schools do not teach self-defense against a knife or gun...
The idea here is to offer a basic program that addresses self-defense, MMA and sports Jiu-Jitsu. Afterwards everyone is free to join or not.
The question is simple. Either we have a common basic program created directly by the founding members. Either we let schools develop as they see fit ?
BNPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Thank you for your answers. I think we need to go back to understand. It was Helio Gracie who modified Maeda's techniques. It was Rorion Gracie who popularized the UFC in 1993. He registered the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu trademark to protect his father's art. Jiu-Jitsu then took different directions. MMA, Sports Jiu-Jitsu and Self-defense. Each school is free to invent or imitate new techniques. But to preserve culture, effectiveness in combat and unify all of these schools it was necessary to create a common basic program. Self Defense Unit and Gracie Combatives are legitimate programs in that sense. I invite you to watch the Future of Jiu-Jitsu video : https://www.youtube.com/w[...]eRaWLVOuPQ I agree 100% with this video. And you ? Best regards
This is exactly the marketing spiel we were referring to.
Helio adapted very little. The techniques were existed. Helios era to UFC 1 was over 40 years. There were many others that contributed alongside Helio. For example, the triangle in the list above. Maeda left japan before it was developed, so it had a different route to jiu jitsu. Most likely Osvaldo Alves.
Rorion trademarked the name ultimately to protect his business. If it was purely about the art, there would not have been ligation against other Gracie's. The Carly lawsuit can be explain maybe by the Helio v Carlos rivalry. But even Rickson went to court.
"But to preserve culture, effectiveness in combat and unify all of these schools it was necessary to create a common basic program."
Seems contradictory? Either the combatives program protects the Gracie method a unique to Gracie Academy/University, or it unifies these other schools that took different directions? IMO it does neither, It preserves the rhetoric, nothing more.
Effectiveness is combat is hardly unique. The have been endless fighters from those "other" BJJ systems that excelled at high levels. Who is representing "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" in MMA these days, can only think of Brian Ortega
Helio adapted very little. The techniques were existed. Helios era to UFC 1 was over 40 years. There were many others that contributed alongside Helio. For example, the triangle in the list above. Maeda left japan before it was developed, so it had a different route to jiu jitsu. Most likely Osvaldo Alves.
Rorion trademarked the name ultimately to protect his business. If it was purely about the art, there would not have been ligation against other Gracie's. The Carly lawsuit can be explain maybe by the Helio v Carlos rivalry. But even Rickson went to court.
"But to preserve culture, effectiveness in combat and unify all of these schools it was necessary to create a common basic program."
Seems contradictory? Either the combatives program protects the Gracie method a unique to Gracie Academy/University, or it unifies these other schools that took different directions? IMO it does neither, It preserves the rhetoric, nothing more.
Effectiveness is combat is hardly unique. The have been endless fighters from those "other" BJJ systems that excelled at high levels. Who is representing "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" in MMA these days, can only think of Brian Ortega
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
we let schools develop as they see fit ?
I would certainly hope so! After all, I'm not part of groups like Gracie Barra, for that reason. ;)
Edited 2 year(s) ago
BNPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Imo the techniques arent what make an art. In judo, mma or any other kind of grappling art I imagine the list of techniques would be similar (though probably named differently). Similar to how you have different kinds of karate and tae kwondo.
Maybe I misunderstood you, apologies.
When you said "a different art", and "were you get tested on different techniques". What techniques were you referring to?
I can only compare to the publish list of techniques. To me they look like a fundamental list of BJJ techniques you'd find anywhere. This is reinforced that I can take a combatives test as a BJJ purple belt to have it recognised.
MMA and Judo have a lot of overlap with BJJ, obviously. But they are clearly distinct technique sets.
When you said "a different art", and "were you get tested on different techniques". What techniques were you referring to?
I can only compare to the publish list of techniques. To me they look like a fundamental list of BJJ techniques you'd find anywhere. This is reinforced that I can take a combatives test as a BJJ purple belt to have it recognised.
MMA and Judo have a lot of overlap with BJJ, obviously. But they are clearly distinct technique sets.
BVBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Its more a philosophical thought about what seperates the arts in general. It is my impression that blue belts from 'sports' jiu jitsu are held to different standards to Gracie Jiu jitsu. Like mentioned a 'regular' purple belt can be evaluated and adopt the Gracie Combatives purple belt.
It is my opinion that its not so much the techniques that seperate arts, but I couldnt tell you exactly what does. It seems the Gracie school likes to seperate themselves from 'sports' BJJ. Whether its for marketing purposes or something else.
It is my opinion that its not so much the techniques that seperate arts, but I couldnt tell you exactly what does. It seems the Gracie school likes to seperate themselves from 'sports' BJJ. Whether its for marketing purposes or something else.
