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Olympic Submission Wrestling

2 year(s) ago • 920 views • 15 replies

Alexander King-Zhang
Alexander King-Zhang
Purple beltVerified661 forum posts2020/400
2 year(s) ago
From sources that are a complete crap shoot, I've heard 2032 will see Greco booted out of Olympics and replaced with UWW wrestling. Which is basically BJJ with non IBJJF rules.

The main differences are that a guard pull is penalised as a takedown, no heel hooks, you get points for pins as opposed to guard passing itself.

Personally I never underestimate the ability of the IOC to ruin everything they touch, but my real question is how this could impact BJJ.

If we're being honest, the Gi meta is based on guard pulls and NoGi is still heel hook heavy. Do you think an Olympic sport would inevitably lead to people preferring to train to the Olympic rules?

For example, >95% Judo competitions in Europe follow Olympic rules. The competitions that try to do non-IJF rules find it difficult to attract people (clubs are negative towards it) and other logistical issues like insurance.
Coachpotato
Coachpotato
Black belt 1st degreeVerified776 forum posts1920/1000
2 year(s) ago
Killing any original olympic sport is insane. But then again, the olympics are a circus these days. Craig Jones will find a way to organise something better anyway.
John A. Byrne
John A. Byrne
Black beltVerified1013 forum posts6370/1000
2 year(s) ago
and to be sure, having Judo in the Olympics saved Judo waaaay back in the day and made it the second most popular sport in the world, but it also has taken away a lot of techniques and aspects of original Judo.

If it were to be a "demo sport" then cool, but if BJJ got into the Olympics then I fear much of what makes our martial art unique/different from others would be potentially stripped etc.
Alexander King-Zhang
Alexander King-ZhangOP
Purple beltVerified661 forum posts2020/400
2 year(s) ago
Killing any original olympic sport is insane. But then again, the olympics are a circus these days. Craig Jones will find a way to organise something better anyway.
I love Greco and competed in for the first time this year. But it fails miserably on what an Olympic sport is supposed to do. It's not growing, confined to small geographic region and doesn't even include women! Meanwhile Freestyle is setting records for female participation.
Alexander King-Zhang
Alexander King-ZhangOP
Purple beltVerified661 forum posts2020/400
2 year(s) ago
and to be sure, having Judo in the Olympics saved Judo waaaay back in the day and made it the second most popular sport in the world, but it also has taken away a lot of techniques and aspects of original Judo. If it were to be a 'demo sport' then cool, but if BJJ got into the Olympics then I fear much of what makes our martial art unique/different from others would be potentially stripped etc.
85% of judoka are under 18 so it's popularity claims come with a huge caveat. Frankly it's easy to get kids into sports because parents are looking for it. When you retain them as adults and have a thriving amateur scene is when I get more impressed.

But to your second point, I agree and whilst the initial ruleset looks decent, the IOC do not give 2 hoots about combat effectiveness and ruin everything they can so....
Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
2 year(s) ago
85% of judoka are under 18 so it's popularity claims come with a huge caveat. Frankly it's easy to get kids into sports because parents are looking for it. When you retain them as adults and have a thriving amateur scene is when I get more impressed.
I think this is a major point. I can say from experience that trying to join a Judo Club as someone my age in my area is a pretty big waste of time. I spent about a third of the class playing football and no one really cared about teaching me.

I see a lot of BJJ groups and gyms locally putting a great focus on kids here in Germany, which I think is a huge mistake. The thing people enjoy the most is how open things are open for everyone. And this is really what is making BJJ so popular right now. If BJJ tries to go the Judo path, I see that aspect going away and the big push going to the kids and everything becoming what we were trying to avoid in the first place.

Case in point, there is actually a UWW national team here in Germany and there are qualifier tournaments. I have a friend whose a member and wanted to give their Elite division a try. I was told I was not allowed to register because I'm too old. A month later I took gold in the adult division of another tournament. Meaning everyone on the podium in that division was allowed to compete in that UWW Elite division, except the guy who won. 🤷‍♂️
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified434 forum posts4005/400
2 year(s) ago
I love Greco and competed in for the first time this year. But it fails miserably on what an Olympic sport is supposed to do. It's not growing, confined to small geographic region and doesn't even include women! Meanwhile Freestyle is setting records for female participation.
If a sport being popular around the world and growing is a requirement for Olympic sports then it seems like half of the sports they have now should be canned.
Alexander King-Zhang
Alexander King-ZhangOP
Purple beltVerified661 forum posts2020/400
2 year(s) ago
If a sport being popular around the world and growing is a requirement for Olympic sports then it seems like half of the sports they have now should be canned.
I have no objections to that, half of them I wouldn't even call a sport to start with
Alexander King-Zhang
Alexander King-ZhangOP
Purple beltVerified661 forum posts2020/400
2 year(s) ago
I think this is a major point. I can say from experience that trying to join a Judo Club as someone my age in my area is a pretty big waste of time. I spent about a third of the class playing football and no one really cared about teaching me. I see a lot of BJJ groups and gyms locally putting a great focus on kids here in Germany, which I think is a huge mistake. The thing people enjoy the most is how open things are open for everyone. And this is really what is making BJJ so popular right now. If BJJ tries to go the Judo path, I see that aspect going away and the big push going to the kids and everything becoming what we were trying to avoid in the first place. Case in point, there is actually a UWW national team here in Germany and there are qualifier tournaments. I have a friend whose a member and wanted to give their Elite division a try. I was told I was not allowed to register because I'm too old. A month later I took gold in the adult division of another tournament. Meaning everyone on the podium in that division was allowed to compete in that UWW Elite division, except the guy who won. 🤷‍♂️
So basically Sport England fund sports according to where they believe the best chance of getting medals is.
Whilst that sounds OK, in practice it's a horrible idea.
What it results in is rich adults getting their hobby subsidised by the government. Or fringe sports neglecting the adult side of things in favour of trying to find the next Olympic champion from the kids.

The latter doesn't really work either. Kids will generally quit most things, so unless you have adults emotionally invested in the sport, you'll never create the culture that keeps the kids engaged. Judo being a prime example of that. I'd say BJJ wouldn't have been 10% as successful as it is, if Judo was actually servicing adults to even a mediocre standard.
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified434 forum posts4005/400
2 year(s) ago
I have no objections to that, half of them I wouldn't even call a sport to start with
I believe it was Hemmingway that said (paraphrased) "Racing, fighting and hunting are the only sports. The rest are just games." Based on that criteria at least half of the events in the graph you posted above are not sports. But I guess they do call them the Olympic Games, not the Olympic Sports.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Pål Magnus Bjørlo
Pål Magnus Bjørlo
Black beltVerified51 forum posts3465/1000
2 year(s) ago
Sorry in advance for bad english and not getting my points straight :)

Wrestling in general is a big sport all over the world. Last time they talked about removing wrestling is probably the last time Iran, USA, Russia and China was united in one cause :)

That beeing said, the style of Greco Roman has a big problem. Actually the same problem you often see when you have 2 world class BJJ practitioners going against each other = lots of stalling and boring matches. When we see the first matches in the olympics (maybe not olympics but in worlds), when the #1 seed meets the worst seed, you see beautiful throws that is the art of wrestling. The rules that have existed the last 10 years is a problem. Another problem is mindset and Refs. Here is the biggest problem with the rules:

If 2 wrestlers are passive, the most passive wrestler gets "punished" after some minutes. The most active wrestler then gets 1 point and chan choose between to continue on the feet, og get some seconds on top in the Parterre position. Most attempts are unsuccessful. The least active wrestler is now under 1 point. Lets say in the next period he is slightly more active, he gets the same chance. The position now is 1-1, with the wrestler "scoring the point" last in the lead (because he was the latest to score). So 100% of those wrestlers just stall...

You dont have to look further than Freestyle wrestling to see success. Although it is "easier" to score points (double leg, single leg is/can be easier than pure upper body takedowns). The Quarter final in 86 kg was 16-14 in points. A very fun match. Here you get a 30 Second window to score points if you are inactive. And the refs are better to call for action.

Another thing, if wrestling, made some changes to the training, embraced that wrestling is a huge part of and success factors of MMA, and was better at marketing, you would see way more recruiting. Another thing you could do (this pisses off the traditionalists) is change the uniform to shorts and t-shirt (nogi).

What we also has to realize that is coomon for Judo and wrestling. A big Koshi Guruma, or a head and arm throw is no fun, and it is usually less fun the older you get ;)

Alexander King-Zhang
Alexander King-ZhangOP
Purple beltVerified661 forum posts2020/400
2 year(s) ago
Sorry in advance for bad english and not getting my points straight :) Wrestling in general is a big sport all over the world. Last time they talked about removing wrestling is probably the last time Iran, USA, Russia and China was united in one cause :) That beeing said, the style of Greco Roman has a big problem. Actually the same problem you often see when you have 2 world class BJJ practitioners going against each other = lots of stalling and boring matches. When we see the first matches in the olympics (maybe not olympics but in worlds), when the #1 seed meets the worst seed, you see beautiful throws that is the art of wrestling. The rules that have existed the last 10 years is a problem. Another problem is mindset and Refs. Here is the biggest problem with the rules: If 2 wrestlers are passive, the most passive wrestler gets 'punished' after some minutes. The most active wrestler then gets 1 point and chan choose between to continue on the feet, og get some seconds on top in the Parterre position. Most attempts are unsuccessful. The least active wrestler is now under 1 point. Lets say in the next period he is slightly more active, he gets the same chance. The position now is 1-1, with the wrestler 'scoring the point' last in the lead (because he was the latest to score). So 100% of those wrestlers just stall... You dont have to look further than Freestyle wrestling to see success. Although it is 'easier' to score points (double leg, single leg is/can be easier than pure upper body takedowns). The Quarter final in 86 kg was 16-14 in points. A very fun match. Here you get a 30 Second window to score points if you are inactive. And the refs are better to call for action. Another thing, if wrestling, made some changes to the training, embraced that wrestling is a huge part of and success factors of MMA, and was better at marketing, you would see way more recruiting. Another thing you could do (this pisses off the traditionalists) is change the uniform to shorts and t-shirt (nogi). What we also has to realize that is coomon for Judo and wrestling. A big Koshi Guruma, or a head and arm throw is no fun, and it is usually less fun the older you get ;)
I agree with everything you said. I went to the Commonwealth Games Wrestling and Olympics in 2012. By far, the best matches to watch were the last 16 and quarter finals.

By finals, it's boring. To me anyway. I want to see "ah yes, that's a misdirection high crotch into a crackdown and he followed up with a gut wrench". I don't want to watch 6 minutes of elite level handfighting, entries and faints.

Anyway, UWW wrestling will be based around the submission, so at least the highlights will be good.
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified434 forum posts4005/400
2 year(s) ago
The level of excitement in a sport doesn't seem to matter that much to the IOC. Who wants to sit and watch a marathon for 2 hours? Same for any other endurance event. If it's not a team sport and it takes more than a few minutes to decide who won it's probably boring to everyone in the world who isn't a participant in the activity.
Alexander King-Zhang
Alexander King-ZhangOP
Purple beltVerified661 forum posts2020/400
2 year(s) ago
The level of excitement in a sport doesn't seem to matter that much to the IOC. Who wants to sit and watch a marathon for 2 hours? Same for any other endurance event. If it's not a team sport and it takes more than a few minutes to decide who won it's probably boring to everyone in the world who isn't a participant in the activity.
These are the massively inflated figures for most popular events. I'd like to point out that if 45% of adults were watching a sport then it would get considerably more than the 33m views the Olympics gets each day, but that aside I think the ranking is probably right.
Brian Van Miltenburg
Brian Van Miltenburg
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified117 forum posts6070/1000
2 year(s) ago
I would say ADCC is like the olympic equivelant for grappling. Although Craig Jones might spoil that party hehe. It worked really well and has boosted the sport and athletes a lot. Im fine with having some form of sub wrestling on the olympics, as long as its not BJJ. It can be a form where BJJ athletes might do well, but also judoka, wrestlers and MMA fighters (like I mentioned, ADCC does a pretty good job at that with their ruleset).
There is a lot of wrestling styles out there. And most of them will do well in freestyle or greco. Greco specifically isnt that big, but there is a lot of styles out there that have similar rulesets. Think about mongolian wrestling, belt wrestling and now even judo. So greco may serve as a good hotchpot of all of these styles.
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified434 forum posts4005/400
2 year(s) ago
These are the massively inflated figures for most popular events. I'd like to point out that if 45% of adults were watching a sport then it would get considerably more than the 33m views the Olympics gets each day, but that aside I think the ranking is probably right.
I can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the US what we see is what the TV networks provide. To some extent they determine what is popular or not popular based on when and what they show. If the Olympics had underwater basket weaving and the TV network decided that was what it was going to show on weekday evenings and weekends that is what would appear popular. Meanwhile the gymnastics they show at only during the week at 10:00 am doesn't look popular because it's at a time when nobody can watch it. I'm sure there are some online services that the hardcore fans use, but for most people it's just what NBC chooses to show us.

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