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Kade vs levi
2 year(s) ago • 1193 views • 26 replies
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
What are your guys thoughts and who do you think is better overall. I feel like there is a lot of controversy on this one and I can see it from both sides. I don't want to say my opinion yet but I'm curious where everyone stands with it.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Kade was in danger more often than Levi was.
Levi was actually not goofing around and trying to win the entire time. But when he stood up both times after wrestling up, he should not of pulled guard again. That last guard pull after wrestling up probably cost him.
People may not like his strategy, but he should of won. He would of won if it was only 3 rounds like all the other matches.
With that being said Kade vs Tackett might be the greatest jiu-jitsu match of all time.
Levi was actually not goofing around and trying to win the entire time. But when he stood up both times after wrestling up, he should not of pulled guard again. That last guard pull after wrestling up probably cost him.
People may not like his strategy, but he should of won. He would of won if it was only 3 rounds like all the other matches.
With that being said Kade vs Tackett might be the greatest jiu-jitsu match of all time.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I'm not a fan of that type of game (Musumeci and now Levi). I think if the top player disengages, bottom player should get up, like what happens in MMA. Less butt scooting is a good thing. An inablity to wrestle should not be rewarded. No problems with the decision, but yeah, it was close. Just happy it went to Kade as his matches were more exciting in general and he showed he was a more complete fighter.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Black belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
They should be a penalty for pulling guard. All BJJ practitioner should know takedowns. If one wants to start by pulling guard especially from butt scooting, points should be awarded to the other player. If not, why are we starting from standing position?
Having said that I think Levi has beautiful BJJ. I just wish he got to that position other than sitting on his butt.
Imagine if Kade refused to engage. And Levi refused to engage in stand up. Then who gets penalize.
I thought they didn’t allowed guard pulling unless there was an initial engagement on the first day, but they allowed it on the second? Didn’t make sense.
Having said that I think Levi has beautiful BJJ. I just wish he got to that position other than sitting on his butt.
Imagine if Kade refused to engage. And Levi refused to engage in stand up. Then who gets penalize.
I thought they didn’t allowed guard pulling unless there was an initial engagement on the first day, but they allowed it on the second? Didn’t make sense.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Levis guard game and leg entanglements are insane.
That is incredible JiuJitsu.
-I think it is actually the only way to stop the Ruotolo brothers.
We have seen it before, that a more offensive (and absolutely awesome) JiuJitsu performed by Tackett was not the key.
The decision was a 50/50 in my eyes and It was only the more attractive style to watch which makes Kade a winner in that match.
That is incredible JiuJitsu.
-I think it is actually the only way to stop the Ruotolo brothers.
We have seen it before, that a more offensive (and absolutely awesome) JiuJitsu performed by Tackett was not the key.
The decision was a 50/50 in my eyes and It was only the more attractive style to watch which makes Kade a winner in that match.
Purple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Technical jiujitsu goes to Levi hands down. Athleticism and showmanship go to Kade no question. The fact that it is a televised event matters, fans matter just as much as the competitors when they are in a professional sports league such as CJI. Because of this, I agree with the decision!
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Kade won that fairly. If Levi was going for control more aggressively, then he would've won, probably easily. Passivity cost him. Kade's attempts at passing were not great, but at least he was pushing the pace. Great match either way.
And man that match with Tackett was incredibly entertaining!
And man that match with Tackett was incredibly entertaining!
Purple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
In general I also think that there should be some downside to pulling guard. Like @Rong Kuan said otherwise there is no reason to start standing.
But I strongly disagree with the idea of Kade was pushing the pace.
He was more walking backwards then forwards and was just shit talking guard pulling. A BJJ athlete should be able to wrestle, but he also shouldn't fear someone sitting on their butt.
When Kade tried to "shit post" Levis style and sat down his guard was immediately threatend to be passed - showing that Levi knows much more about guard retension as well as passing.
Of course butt scooting is boring but if you don't give pullers disadvantages for doing so there is no reason to call someone more aggressive or offensive for walking away from a buttscooter.
Having said that, if I remember right then one of the rules for CJI was that entertainment is also scoring points which of course makes it clear why Kade got the win - even though I found his "walking away" in combination with his "shit posting" a bit cowardly.
But I strongly disagree with the idea of Kade was pushing the pace.
He was more walking backwards then forwards and was just shit talking guard pulling. A BJJ athlete should be able to wrestle, but he also shouldn't fear someone sitting on their butt.
When Kade tried to "shit post" Levis style and sat down his guard was immediately threatend to be passed - showing that Levi knows much more about guard retension as well as passing.
Of course butt scooting is boring but if you don't give pullers disadvantages for doing so there is no reason to call someone more aggressive or offensive for walking away from a buttscooter.
Having said that, if I remember right then one of the rules for CJI was that entertainment is also scoring points which of course makes it clear why Kade got the win - even though I found his "walking away" in combination with his "shit posting" a bit cowardly.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
One school of thought could be, if all I have to do is back away at walking pace your attacks are not up to much. If you cant walk away and have to throw an elaborate guard up to keep yourself from being submitted, I have a better offense.
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think the butt scooting and waiting for your opponent to attack is total BS. If you have no stand up game, you don't deserve to win a match in an elite crowd. In judo, Levi would have quickly been disqualified by penalties for non-aggression, and fundamentally, BJJ is a scion of judo. That kind of purely defensive behavior should definitely be penalized.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think the butt scooting and waiting for your opponent to attack is total BS. If you have no stand up game, you don't deserve to win a match in an elite crowd. In judo, Levi would have quickly been disqualified by penalties for non-aggression, and fundamentally, BJJ is a scion of judo. That kind of purely defensive behavior should definitely be penalized.
I agree but also, Kade was doing the same thing from standing. He refused to pass guard and did not pass the guard once in 5 rounds... He also did not engage on the ground. I actually think if the match was forced to go until submission that Kade would have lost.
Rules and styles make the match ups. I think in the championship round if your not leading by at least 2 points on the judges score card that you should do maybe something like an EBI overtime so that there is either a clear winner by decision or a clear winner will be determined by a submission.
Rules and styles make the match ups. I think in the championship round if your not leading by at least 2 points on the judges score card that you should do maybe something like an EBI overtime so that there is either a clear winner by decision or a clear winner will be determined by a submission.
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think in the championship round if your not leading by at least 2 points on the judges score card that you should do maybe something like an EBI overtime so that there is either a clear winner by decision or a clear winner will be determined by a submission.
The answer is simple. If someone deliberately sits down, then the opponent is awarded 2 points for a "take down". Levi loses by 6 points, and Kade is not obligated to play Levi's game.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
The answer is simple. If someone deliberately sits down, then the opponent is awarded 2 points for a 'take down'. Levi loses by 6 points, and Kade is not obligated to play Levi's game.
This isn't MMA it's grappling.
Why do a grappling match if you are afraid to engage in grappling.
If you wanted to allow striking then sure that would make sense.
Why do a grappling match if you are afraid to engage in grappling.
If you wanted to allow striking then sure that would make sense.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Yes, but on the other hand isn‘t grappling a pure groundgame.
The actually Judo ruleset prefers standup.
The impact of that rules have had horrible consequences for the evolvement of newaza (techniques on the ground in Judo).
If You do the same vice versa and allow the competitors to skip standup completely, You may have to face the consequences what means to impoverish BJJ.
Just my 50 cents….🤷♂️
[writing that and being absolutely fascinated of that funky leg-entanglement-stuff 😇😂]
The actually Judo ruleset prefers standup.
The impact of that rules have had horrible consequences for the evolvement of newaza (techniques on the ground in Judo).
If You do the same vice versa and allow the competitors to skip standup completely, You may have to face the consequences what means to impoverish BJJ.
Just my 50 cents….🤷♂️
[writing that and being absolutely fascinated of that funky leg-entanglement-stuff 😇😂]
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
This isn't MMA it's grappling.
Absolutely, and there is not a SINGLE grappling sport in the world that does not begin with opponents standing. Why should BJJ be the only exception? Grappling sports are over 2000 years old, and in almost every one (and there are probably over 100) the object is to take your opponent to the ground AFTER which pinning or submission may be a requirement.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Absolutely, and there is not a SINGLE grappling sport in the world that does not begin with opponents standing. Why should BJJ be the only exception? Grappling sports are over 2000 years old, and in almost every one (and there are probably over 100) the object is to take your opponent to the ground AFTER which pinning or submission may be a requirement.
They absolutely should start from standing. And you should not be allowed to just sit down either. But if someone goes for a real guard pull coming forward and attacking and the opponent just runs away that's also just as cowardly as pulling guard.
Just pass the guard. They are conceding the position. So if you want to deduct 1 or 2 points fine. But you should also deduct 1 or 2 points if someone refuses to engage the guard pull. Running away is also conceding. So if someone wants to pull guard and you want to say thats minus 1 point sure. Same should be true for people refusing to pass guard.
It all should just be considered stalling... and if one person is playing guard and the other is not trying to pass the guard the reality is they are both stalling and should both be penalized. That's the real balance.
Just pass the guard. They are conceding the position. So if you want to deduct 1 or 2 points fine. But you should also deduct 1 or 2 points if someone refuses to engage the guard pull. Running away is also conceding. So if someone wants to pull guard and you want to say thats minus 1 point sure. Same should be true for people refusing to pass guard.
It all should just be considered stalling... and if one person is playing guard and the other is not trying to pass the guard the reality is they are both stalling and should both be penalized. That's the real balance.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
They absolutely should start from standing. And you should not be allowed to just sit down either. But if someone goes for a real guard pull coming forward and attacking and the opponent just runs away that's also just as cowardly as pulling guard. Just pass the guard. They are conceding the position. So if you want to deduct 1 or 2 points fine. But you should also deduct 1 or 2 points if someone refuses to engage the guard pull. Running away is also conceding. So if someone wants to pull guard and you want to say thats minus 1 point sure. Same should be true for people refusing to pass guard. It all should just be considered stalling... and if one person is playing guard and the other is not trying to pass the guard the reality is they are both stalling and should both be penalized. That's the real balance.
I think we agree on the fundamentals. But what I saw in the match was not a guard pull, but simply Levi sitting down and butt scooting over to Kade. It seemed to me he did this more than once.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think we agree on the fundamentals. But what I saw in the match was not a guard pull, but simply Levi sitting down and butt scooting over to Kade. It seemed to me he did this more than once.
Kade ran away also. The one time Kade played guard as a joke he almost got his guard passed. Levi had the best guard pass attempt the entire match which says a lot.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Kade was on top constantly looking for passes and submissions. That is the most demanding job out of the two (top and bottom), and guard is and always will be (hence the name) a defensive position. When that beeing said, the match was very close, and Levi did a great job.
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Levi is clearly very talented with his guard work (retention, attacking, etc.) But to me, the top is still dominant position. If you are an avid guard player and choose to butt scoot and try to win via submission from the bottom, that's a risk you take knowingly. That's just my $.02 though.
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Close match either way. Haven't looked at in total, you can't forget that it is scored round by round. I think most people agree it comes down to Rd3 with Rd1 and Rd2 being far less controversial one winning each.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Close match either way. Haven't looked at in total, you can't forget that it is scored round by round. I think most people agree it comes down to Rd3 with Rd1 and Rd2 being far less controversial one winning each.
It was 5 rounds. Levi won the first 2 and they gave Kade the last 3.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I understand why kade one but I personally was more impressed with Levi's performance. He is so subtly dangerous that it almost feels like people may have missed some of the attacks he was making.
However... Craig very specifically said what he expected from the competitors and kades style suits it much better. I think an argument can be made in either competitors favor but again... for me personally I feelyhat levi was the better player in that match.
However... Craig very specifically said what he expected from the competitors and kades style suits it much better. I think an argument can be made in either competitors favor but again... for me personally I feelyhat levi was the better player in that match.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I understand why kade one but I personally was more impressed with Levi's performance. He is so subtly dangerous that it almost feels like people may have missed some of the attacks he was making. However... Craig very specifically said what he expected from the competitors and kades style suits it much better. I think an argument can be made in either competitors favor but again... for me personally I feelyhat levi was the better player in that match.
Same.
It's crazy from how I feel he had one of the best matches of all time in the prior match...to thinking that he lost the very next match. But the previous match I guess he earned the money.
It's crazy from how I feel he had one of the best matches of all time in the prior match...to thinking that he lost the very next match. But the previous match I guess he earned the money.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Black belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
That was a great match. It's one of those matches that made me glad I wasn't a judge.
Live long and pull guard.
Live long and pull guard.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Honestly...
I think Kade may have got a popularity win.
I think he was in danger more often and the third round was ruled wrong.
Kade bailed on playing guard very fast after Levi started to show his passing potential.
Kade was the 'Store Manager' most of the time, looked busy but actually achieved f**k all.
The 2 cents of a brown belt coach from a small town, in a small country, who couldn't beat either of them if they were hog tied and I had a gun.
I think Kade may have got a popularity win.
I think he was in danger more often and the third round was ruled wrong.
Kade bailed on playing guard very fast after Levi started to show his passing potential.
Kade was the 'Store Manager' most of the time, looked busy but actually achieved f**k all.
The 2 cents of a brown belt coach from a small town, in a small country, who couldn't beat either of them if they were hog tied and I had a gun.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Honestly... I think Kade may have got a popularity win. I think he was in danger more often and the third round was ruled wrong. Kade bailed on playing guard very fast after Levi started to show his passing potential. Kade was the 'Store Manager' most of the time, looked busy but actually achieved f**k all. The 2 cents of a brown belt coach from a small town, in a small country, who couldn't beat either of them if they were hog tied and I had a gun.
Great response lmao 🤣


