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Bjj Belt System
1 year(s) ago • 1284 views • 15 replies
DBPurple beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
More and more practitioners are saying the bjj belt system is meaningless and outdated. What are your thoughts on the bjj belt system and if you could change anything about it, what would it be?
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
1 year(s) ago
Widely accepted option of using chosen kids belts for grown ups too. I believe that could help with motivation and retention. Those ideas are often frowned upon by upper belts, thinking they should just endure like we have without excessive encouragement, but there's a survivor bias there and we could have many more staying with BJJ.
Also, I at times think the black belt "stripes of survival" is a bit silly, but don't see any skill based system around the corner, if it's to be overseen by a central organization which is not IBJJF. But it is what it is now and at least very simple and objective and a time indicator says at least something and the rest is up to the BB to show on the mats anyways.
More widely utilized calibration would also be good, both with times in belts and skills for belts. More of a culture thing than needing an organization demanding mucho dinero for that, but with the varying belt system when there's already so much of a de facto standard (also outside of IBJJF) reminds me of the toothbrush principle: "Everybody wants one but no one wants to use anyone else's".
Also, I at times think the black belt "stripes of survival" is a bit silly, but don't see any skill based system around the corner, if it's to be overseen by a central organization which is not IBJJF. But it is what it is now and at least very simple and objective and a time indicator says at least something and the rest is up to the BB to show on the mats anyways.
More widely utilized calibration would also be good, both with times in belts and skills for belts. More of a culture thing than needing an organization demanding mucho dinero for that, but with the varying belt system when there's already so much of a de facto standard (also outside of IBJJF) reminds me of the toothbrush principle: "Everybody wants one but no one wants to use anyone else's".
CPBlack beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
I think people don't respect it enough. You've got black belts in 5 years or black belts in 25 years. It's kind of abused to one extreme or the other.
"But this 18 year old has won 8 million comps and beats black belts" sure but are they mentally mature enough and do they have enough life experience to mentor someone?
"But this guy has done BJJ for 25 years and should get a time served belt" perhaps, but has he ever competed? Has he taught beginners well? Can he explain what Jiu Jitsu IS.
There are hundreds of different possibilities, but most of the people that say the belt doesn't mean something got their belts relatively fast and most of the people who it took forever to get a belt almost put too much hero worship towards the belt.
Surely somewhere in the middle is the answer.
Minimum criteria (not just time served) on an international level would be good. Will it ever happen? No. Why? You have the big belt machine wanting to open new clubs all the time, then others ranking people as fast as possible so their club looks good followed by panic rankings whereby people worry about their students leaving for X/Y/Z school who are speeding people through the belts.
All I know is this, they should be earned and they should be hard work to get, not impossible but not easy. Why? Then they will mean more.
For example there are some people on here that have done BJJ for 8 years and been a black belt for 2 years and never done a competition in their life. Does that mean they're bad? Not necessarily. But on the flip side of the coin there are clearly a set of people also who could never earn a black belt in that time period simply because their face doesn't fit. Does that mean they're bad? Not necessarily.
It's a tough and complex issue but one thing is for sure we need to make sure the art doesn't get watered down like Karate sadly did. (No knock on karate the art, just the structure of how quickly certain clubs churn black belts out.)
I could be wrong, those are just my thoughts. 🤙🏻
"But this 18 year old has won 8 million comps and beats black belts" sure but are they mentally mature enough and do they have enough life experience to mentor someone?
"But this guy has done BJJ for 25 years and should get a time served belt" perhaps, but has he ever competed? Has he taught beginners well? Can he explain what Jiu Jitsu IS.
There are hundreds of different possibilities, but most of the people that say the belt doesn't mean something got their belts relatively fast and most of the people who it took forever to get a belt almost put too much hero worship towards the belt.
Surely somewhere in the middle is the answer.
Minimum criteria (not just time served) on an international level would be good. Will it ever happen? No. Why? You have the big belt machine wanting to open new clubs all the time, then others ranking people as fast as possible so their club looks good followed by panic rankings whereby people worry about their students leaving for X/Y/Z school who are speeding people through the belts.
All I know is this, they should be earned and they should be hard work to get, not impossible but not easy. Why? Then they will mean more.
For example there are some people on here that have done BJJ for 8 years and been a black belt for 2 years and never done a competition in their life. Does that mean they're bad? Not necessarily. But on the flip side of the coin there are clearly a set of people also who could never earn a black belt in that time period simply because their face doesn't fit. Does that mean they're bad? Not necessarily.
It's a tough and complex issue but one thing is for sure we need to make sure the art doesn't get watered down like Karate sadly did. (No knock on karate the art, just the structure of how quickly certain clubs churn black belts out.)
I could be wrong, those are just my thoughts. 🤙🏻
DBPurple beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
I think people don't respect it enough. You've got black belts in 5 years or black belts in 25 years. It's kind of abused to one extreme or the other. 'But this 18 year old has won 8 million comps and beats black belts' sure but are they mentally mature enough and do they have enough life experience to mentor someone? 'But this guy has done BJJ for 25 years and should get a time served belt' perhaps, but has he ever competed? Has he taught beginners well? Can he explain what Jiu Jitsu IS. There are hundreds of different possibilities, but most of the people that say the belt doesn't mean something got their belts relatively fast and most of the people who it took forever to get a belt almost put too much hero worship towards the belt. Surely somewhere in the middle is the answer. Minimum criteria (not just time served) on an international level would be good. Will it ever happen? No. Why? You have the big belt machine wanting to open new clubs all the time, then others ranking people as fast as possible so their club looks good followed by panic rankings whereby people worry about their students leaving for X/Y/Z school who are speeding people through the belts. All I know is this, they should be earned and they should be hard work to get, not impossible but not easy. Why? Then they will mean more. For example there are some people on here that have done BJJ for 8 years and been a black belt for 2 years and never done a competition in their life. Does that mean they're bad? Not necessarily. But on the flip side of the coin there are clearly a set of people also who could never earn a black belt in that time period simply because their face doesn't fit. Does that mean they're bad? Not necessarily. It's a tough and complex issue but one thing is for sure we need to make sure the art doesn't get watered down like Karate sadly did. (No knock on karate the art, just the structure of how quickly certain clubs churn black belts out.) I could be wrong, those are just my thoughts. 🤙🏻
I agree. Somewhere in the middle of the chaos should be the middle ground for promotions, structure, etc. I would love to believe bjj won’t be watered down and the focus is the belt and not the art but hey, just my option, doesn’t mean much in this world.
DBPurple beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
Widely accepted option of using chosen kids belts for grown ups too. I believe that could help with motivation and retention. Those ideas are often frowned upon by upper belts, thinking they should just endure like we have without excessive encouragement, but there's a survivor bias there and we could have many more staying with BJJ. Also, I at times think the black belt 'stripes of survival' is a bit silly, but don't see any skill based system around the corner, if it's to be overseen by a central organization which is not IBJJF. But it is what it is now and at least very simple and objective and a time indicator says at least something and the rest is up to the BB to show on the mats anyways. More widely utilized calibration would also be good, both with times in belts and skills for belts. More of a culture thing than needing an organization demanding mucho dinero for that, but with the varying belt system when there's already so much of a de facto standard (also outside of IBJJF) reminds me of the toothbrush principle: 'Everybody wants one but no one wants to use anyone else's'.
Great feedback!
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
1 year(s) ago
More and more practitioners are saying the bjj belt system is meaningless and outdated.
Life is meaningless and outdated. Long live the AI Bots!
All jokes aside though, that's why this site is so important: it's up to us to define the meaning behind the belt system. We don't really need a group of dudes (it's always dudes) at the top of some pyramid scheme to dictate the criteria for belt ranks in this art/sport we all love.
All jokes aside though, that's why this site is so important: it's up to us to define the meaning behind the belt system. We don't really need a group of dudes (it's always dudes) at the top of some pyramid scheme to dictate the criteria for belt ranks in this art/sport we all love.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
1 year(s) ago
The belt system give you a goal to archive and in the same time, it help you to know where you are in your bjj, because when you travel, you gonna compare yourself to the same rank praticioners to know if you're in the game or not... if you train in a good gym, you should feel confortable traveling.
But for sure, if we talk about competitors, they should not be part of the equatation of comparing, sandbagging, training like pros since kids or small belts, it false the value against an hobbyist praticioner.
Of course a judo olympian would smash an entire dojo of 3rd or 4rd dan hobbyist... the training regiment is something else
So yes bjj belt mean something, but if you're hobbyist, don't put your gi at the garbage if you've been mauled by an 18 years blue belt european champion
But for sure, if we talk about competitors, they should not be part of the equatation of comparing, sandbagging, training like pros since kids or small belts, it false the value against an hobbyist praticioner.
Of course a judo olympian would smash an entire dojo of 3rd or 4rd dan hobbyist... the training regiment is something else
So yes bjj belt mean something, but if you're hobbyist, don't put your gi at the garbage if you've been mauled by an 18 years blue belt european champion
JCPurple beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
It both is and isn't. It is outdated because we are currently in the middle of a renaissance of sorts in BJJ. In the last few years we've seen the first large scale generation of practitioners that have trained since they were little kids and they are elevating what it means to be any given belt. We've got adult black belts that have trained for a decade or more being beaten, often handily, by blue belts that have trained for the same time period or even longer, but are limited on belt level by an arbitrary age requirement. So which is wrong? Is the black belt over valued or is the blue belt under valued? Will it sort itself out over time? Who knows? It's just what we're stuck with for now. I may be an old fogie on this, but coming from Taekwondo where everybody gets a black belt after two years of training regardless of age I feel pretty comfortable saying that the average 18 year old isn't equipped to be a black belt no matter their skill level due to their mental and emotional maturity. That said, there are plenty of 30-40 year-olds that aren't mentally or emotionally equipped for black belt either.
The system isn't outdated because for most practitioners it still represents a reasonable expectation of ability as long as a gym holds to good standards. This is really the only benefit I see in the belt system. It allows you to walk into a gym for the first time and know approximately what to expect from someone and how to gauge yourself against them. Obviously this doesn't always work, but it's a starting place.
The system isn't outdated because for most practitioners it still represents a reasonable expectation of ability as long as a gym holds to good standards. This is really the only benefit I see in the belt system. It allows you to walk into a gym for the first time and know approximately what to expect from someone and how to gauge yourself against them. Obviously this doesn't always work, but it's a starting place.
DBPurple beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
It both is and isn't. It is outdated because we are currently in the middle of a renaissance of sorts in BJJ. In the last few years we've seen the first large scale generation of practitioners that have trained since they were little kids and they are elevating what it means to be any given belt. We've got adult black belts that have trained for a decade or more being beaten, often handily, by blue belts that have trained for the same time period or even longer, but are limited on belt level by an arbitrary age requirement. So which is wrong? Is the black belt over valued or is the blue belt under valued? Will it sort itself out over time? Who knows? It's just what we're stuck with for now. I may be an old fogie on this, but coming from Taekwondo where everybody gets a black belt after two years of training regardless of age I feel pretty comfortable saying that the average 18 year old isn't equipped to be a black belt no matter their skill level due to their mental and emotional maturity. That said, there are plenty of 30-40 year-olds that aren't mentally or emotionally equipped for black belt either. The system isn't outdated because for most practitioners it still represents a reasonable expectation of ability as long as a gym holds to good standards. This is really the only benefit I see in the belt system. It allows you to walk into a gym for the first time and know approximately what to expect from someone and how to gauge yourself against them. Obviously this doesn't always work, but it's a starting place.
Absolutely! Completely makes sense.
MWPurple beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
FYI: I come from a martial arts with 9-12 belt levels before the first Dan (Black Belt level), where every belt had a specific curriculum and belt testing event.
I did this from 8-19 years of age and we had basically all typical problems with that system that you'd think of.
I think the current way BJJ belts are handled is extremely good compared to other systems.
The heuristic approach to promotion with everyone having a somewhat similar understanding of the belts* works surprisingly well, even though not perfect.
*(White, Blue = Beginner; Purple = Mid but starts having a game and well founded understanding of JJ; Brown, Black = thorough understanding of JJ and high level knowledge / skill in certain areas)
-My experience with increasing the number of belts is that you make it even more confusing what the belt is supposed to mean (hence why probably no one would compare different people on stripe base, when they're from different gyms)
- Using belt test in terms of testing and not as a ritual causes people to only study for the testing.
Which causes big gaps in their game since JJ, or fighting in general, by it's nature is a heuristic thing, and not strictly systemize-able thing.
-Having time restrictions doesn't make sense when you want to give out belts skill-based.
Yes, there is a average time for every belt but that indicates that there is variation and I don't think it makes much sense to hold someone on a belt, and not giving them the proper feedback in this sense, just because of something independent of the meaning of the belt. (It's like giving a cheese player not the ELO he deserves because he didn't play cheese long enough.)
-Having a time served approach after the BB is a good thing in my opinion. After receiving your BB you are supposed to have your own take on JJ and should be able to thrive in it without the need of asking peers of acknowledgment.
BB is also a level where further differentiation doesn't make much sense.
Having the time and therefore experience as only indicator sounds reasonable to me.
I think it would be nice if there were written down an heuristic approach guide to what the belts mean so people can reference it. But the question is who is supposed to publish that?
(You find a lot of good videos on YT where BB discuss their specific takes on Belt Levels.)
I also thinks it's to easily forgotten that: being a training partner, being a good competitor, being a good coach / teacher, being knowledgeable about JJ, having a good character / being a good representative of JJ.
Are all things that you can be good at without another high skill in the other.
-John Danaher never competited, is he less of a BB now?
-When Nicky Rod tapped BB in ADCC as a Blue Belt, should he have been a BB without thorough understanding of JJ?
So I think besides the main ideas of the belts is very important to make sure you know what you want to see in a student in those, not necessarily measurable, attributes besides competition success.
I did this from 8-19 years of age and we had basically all typical problems with that system that you'd think of.
I think the current way BJJ belts are handled is extremely good compared to other systems.
The heuristic approach to promotion with everyone having a somewhat similar understanding of the belts* works surprisingly well, even though not perfect.
*(White, Blue = Beginner; Purple = Mid but starts having a game and well founded understanding of JJ; Brown, Black = thorough understanding of JJ and high level knowledge / skill in certain areas)
-My experience with increasing the number of belts is that you make it even more confusing what the belt is supposed to mean (hence why probably no one would compare different people on stripe base, when they're from different gyms)
- Using belt test in terms of testing and not as a ritual causes people to only study for the testing.
Which causes big gaps in their game since JJ, or fighting in general, by it's nature is a heuristic thing, and not strictly systemize-able thing.
-Having time restrictions doesn't make sense when you want to give out belts skill-based.
Yes, there is a average time for every belt but that indicates that there is variation and I don't think it makes much sense to hold someone on a belt, and not giving them the proper feedback in this sense, just because of something independent of the meaning of the belt. (It's like giving a cheese player not the ELO he deserves because he didn't play cheese long enough.)
-Having a time served approach after the BB is a good thing in my opinion. After receiving your BB you are supposed to have your own take on JJ and should be able to thrive in it without the need of asking peers of acknowledgment.
BB is also a level where further differentiation doesn't make much sense.
Having the time and therefore experience as only indicator sounds reasonable to me.
I think it would be nice if there were written down an heuristic approach guide to what the belts mean so people can reference it. But the question is who is supposed to publish that?
(You find a lot of good videos on YT where BB discuss their specific takes on Belt Levels.)
I also thinks it's to easily forgotten that: being a training partner, being a good competitor, being a good coach / teacher, being knowledgeable about JJ, having a good character / being a good representative of JJ.
Are all things that you can be good at without another high skill in the other.
-John Danaher never competited, is he less of a BB now?
-When Nicky Rod tapped BB in ADCC as a Blue Belt, should he have been a BB without thorough understanding of JJ?
So I think besides the main ideas of the belts is very important to make sure you know what you want to see in a student in those, not necessarily measurable, attributes besides competition success.
MWPurple beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
Sorry, for those funky typos. I'm dyslexic.
"cheese player" is my favourite haha
"cheese player" is my favourite haha
KHPurple beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
Sorry, for those funky typos. I'm dyslexic. 'cheese player' is my favourite haha
I assumed it was some game I was not familiar with....especially since you uses the word cheese more than once. Lol!
MBlack beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
It all started with bicycle helmets, and now it's "everyone gets a black belt", people don't know what it is like to lose and feel pain when they do something stupid. Stupid should hurt.
JABlack beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
I assumed it was some game I was not familiar with....especially since you uses the word cheese more than once. Lol!
If he was a 10 planet guy I'd assume it was a guard or position I was unaware of lol
JJBlack beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
People often talk about blue belts quitting after they get promoted to blue belt as now a lot of higher belts take the kid gloves off when they roll with them, and the white belts now try to murder them.
I don't see hardly anyone talk about the casual black belts when they get promoted. Now imagine those white belts trying to murder you when you were a blue belt...except now its competition purple/brown belts trying to murder you if they don't have the right mindset.
While black belts may not quit like blue belts...I see several casual black belts quit cross training as they just don't want to deal with strangers trying to beat them up all the time. They mostly just stick to their own academy that they trust and avoid going anywhere else anymore which is unfortunate as training with strangers/other places really helps you grow.
I don't see hardly anyone talk about the casual black belts when they get promoted. Now imagine those white belts trying to murder you when you were a blue belt...except now its competition purple/brown belts trying to murder you if they don't have the right mindset.
While black belts may not quit like blue belts...I see several casual black belts quit cross training as they just don't want to deal with strangers trying to beat them up all the time. They mostly just stick to their own academy that they trust and avoid going anywhere else anymore which is unfortunate as training with strangers/other places really helps you grow.
AKPurple beltVerified
1 year(s) ago
I think the current way BJJ belts are handled is extremely good compared to other systems.
I agree, I wonder if the people criticising it have actually seen the state of most of other martial arts right now.
Most the BJJ competitions I go to have more blue belts competing than entire competitions of other martial arts. I think you have to braindead not to see a problem with people with >10 years experience having competition matches against people with 6 months experience, which does happen in various sports with no ranking system.
5 belts works better than any system out there.
Most the BJJ competitions I go to have more blue belts competing than entire competitions of other martial arts. I think you have to braindead not to see a problem with people with >10 years experience having competition matches against people with 6 months experience, which does happen in various sports with no ranking system.
5 belts works better than any system out there.
