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Do today’s Jiu-jitsu practitioners improve faster or is the martial art watered down?

1 year(s) ago • 1518 views • 22 replies

Corey Hebert
Corey Hebert
Brown beltVerified18 forum posts1515/700
1 year(s) ago
Recently, I read a post on another platform in which the writer expressed his disbelief that people who started Jiu-jitsu in their 40s were getting black belts in 8 – 9 years. The writer was insistent that this was a sign of the monetization of Jiu-jitsu and that the martial art was now watered down. It was his opinion that a Jiu-jitsu black belt did not have the same meaning as it did in the past because schools were handing them out to keep students.

I think that this is an interesting position that does not take a lot of variables into consideration. I usually hear comments like this from guys who started training in the late 90s or early 2000s. I did not train in Jiu-jitsu at that time, but I was playing competitive sports. It was a different time. We were working out like bodybuilders while playing baseball. Now, we have a better understanding of functional weight training and nutrition, which improves our game and ability to train consistently.

We have more opportunities to be on the mat. Even if I travel to work, I can find a gym to get some rounds in. Not to mention, I can compete every weekend if I want, giving me a chance to see what works outside of the gym environment and pushing me to train so I do not get smashed in front of everyone at a tournament.

Maybe most importantly, we have practically unlimited access to training materials. We can buy instructionals from top Jiu-jitsu athletes or google a technique and find 100s of videos that break it down. This is no longer a couple of guys rolling in someone's garage watching a VHS of the Ultimate Fighting Championship if you were not lucky enough to be near one of the few gyms.

What are your thoughts?
Dave Cork
Dave Cork
Black beltVerified235 forum posts2250/1000
1 year(s) ago
From the sounds of it this guy believes that there is a sparring/competition requirement in order to "be a black belt". They likely believe you shouldn't lose to a lower belt unless you're allowing it.
The fact is that most practitioners aren't in it for smashing the competitor opposite them. Lots of us are here to be better trained than the average person, the drunk fool who takes a swing at a bar or the lubed up weirdo running from the cops... I know there's a story out there for the last one.

With the art being more accessible there are more people accessing it, strange thought right. With that comes more people who are less intense and may be doing it socially, for exercise or a number of other reasons other than to be a killer.

Is it 'watered down' or is it taking into consideration the limitations and objectives of the individual?
I think the black belt represents time poured into the art, a depth of knowledge, and the ability to pass it on... Even if the young blue belt murders you with that knowledge in the next round.
Jamie Phillips
Jamie Phillips
Brown beltVerified13 forum posts2200/700
1 year(s) ago
My thoughts? To be a black belt you should be training 10-12 years (roughly) unless you have a track record of training 6 days a week and have a serious competition record. I won't budge on that only because I personally have seen the watering down of Jiu-Jitsu and it infuriates me. Mind you I have moved a lot and Have been a member of many gyms. Furthermore I travel for work sometimes and vacations and have always trained wherever I go. 95 percent of gyms have a similar standard of training and promotion. But a handful have slacked on those standards and I think that is a shame. You don't have to be a comp wizard but you need a lot of mat time and live training time. You don't have to be the best but you should put the mat time in. Period.
Edited 1 year(s) ago
Jon Waddle
Jon Waddle
Black belt 1st degreeVerified81 forum posts1895/1000
1 year(s) ago
when most of us started, there were limited hours available for training, no instructionals, limited instructors, rarely any black belts available, even fewer seminars or camps, so it made working towards a black belt truly difficult. now people have access to far more of those areas, so it is far easier to earn a black belt. JMHO
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified433 forum posts4005/400
1 year(s) ago
I really don't feel like it takes 10 years to get to black belt level any more. I hear it said that the sport is watered down, but a solid blue belt of today would likely take plenty of black belts from 20 years ago simply because they are held at white for 2 years and then blue for 2 more. Should they be black belts after 4 years? No. There's more to it than skill and/or capability. But I believe the arbitrary time restrictions for promotion are antiquated and need to be removed and let everyone progress at their own pace instead of forcing them to sit at one level for far longer than they need to. Quality training and instruction is so much easier to come by today that there's no reason to continue pretending it takes at least 10 years to get to black belt.
Anthony Restuccia
Anthony Restuccia
Black beltVerified650 forum posts12595/1000
1 year(s) ago
Recently, I read a post on another platform in which the writer expressed his disbelief that people who started Jiu-jitsu in their 40s were getting black belts in 8 – 9 years. The writer was insistent that this was a sign of the monetization of Jiu-jitsu and that the martial art was now watered down. It was his opinion that a Jiu-jitsu black belt did not have the same meaning as it did in the past because schools were handing them out to keep students. I think that this is an interesting position that does not take a lot of variables into consideration. I usually hear comments like this from guys who started training in the late 90s or early 2000s. I did not train in Jiu-jitsu at that time, but I was playing competitive sports. It was a different time. We were working out like bodybuilders while playing baseball. Now, we have a better understanding of functional weight training and nutrition, which improves our game and ability to train consistently. We have more opportunities to be on the mat. Even if I travel to work, I can find a gym to get some rounds in. Not to mention, I can compete every weekend if I want, giving me a chance to see what works outside of the gym environment and pushing me to train so I do not get smashed in front of everyone at a tournament. Maybe most importantly, we have practically unlimited access to training materials. We can buy instructionals from top Jiu-jitsu athletes or google a technique and find 100s of videos that break it down. This is no longer a couple of guys rolling in someone's garage watching a VHS of the Ultimate Fighting Championship if you were not lucky enough to be near one of the few gyms. What are your thoughts?
Well I'm 50 and I've been training for 19 years and not at black belt level. Truth be told, if I do receive my black, it will mostly be because of the time I put in. I've only taken breaks for injuries and the time it took me to find a new gym after leaving my first and my second closing. Honestly, I'm no black belt skill wise. I'm a good teacher, but I don't think that should be enough. There's a certain standard that I look up to, and I know I won't achieve it now. My body is breaking down, etc, etc. Just wasn't meant to be. I'm good with that. Don't chase the belt, just have fun. :)
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
1 year(s) ago
Nothing watered down.
The reference of a belt ends at the door of every dojo.
Competition skills are completely another chapter.
Just my experiences and my pov.

Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
1 year(s) ago
I've heard plenty of stories about Royce Gracie promoting people to blue belt just for attending his seminar, so I honestly doubt things are less strict now than they were.

And honestly, a big reason people might be getting black belts sooner,assuming that's really happening, is because people just teach better. We tend to avoid wasting the first 30 minutes of class running around the gym in a circle, sequences are more thought out, everything is more systemized and easier to digest. It's not enough to just show and Armbar and then tell people to roll.
Dave Cork
Dave Cork
Black beltVerified235 forum posts2250/1000
1 year(s) ago
I've heard plenty of stories about Royce Gracie promoting people to blue belt just for attending his seminar, so I honestly doubt things are less strict now than they were. And honestly, a big reason people might be getting black belts sooner,assuming that's really happening, is because people just teach better. We tend to avoid wasting the first 30 minutes of class running around the gym in a circle, sequences are more thought out, everything is more systemized and easier to digest. It's not enough to just show and Armbar and then tell people to roll.
This is a solid point.
BJJ now is more professional and there are higher expectations from students, as far as teaching is concerned.
I try very hard to have plans and move through things systematically. Explain the same thing in different ways until it clicks for everybody.
Almost every other post is saying that the saturation of high quality information and instruction is the real change.
Still reckon the post that is initially referenced is a salty black belt that took 10-15 years to get to BB, reminiscing about being teabagged by his first coach in a garage somewhere...
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified433 forum posts4005/400
1 year(s) ago
Almost every other post is saying that the saturation of high quality information and instruction is the real change.
So what is the difference between teaching better and high quality instruction?
Dave Cork
Dave Cork
Black beltVerified235 forum posts2250/1000
1 year(s) ago
So what is the difference between teaching better and high quality instruction?
Other than a more eloquent use of the English language... Not much.
Chris Baker
Chris Baker
Brown beltVerified573 forum posts3175/700
1 year(s) ago
Main thing I've noticed, at least compared to when I started 10 years ago, is most coaches just waist less time in training. When I started, we'd spend the first 30 minutes of the class running around the gym and doing calisthenics. The coach would then show one or two techniques, then we'd roll the rest of the time. Horrible class structure,most of the time, the coaches weren't planning their classes and just did whatever they thought of on the way to the mat, and a lot of time was wasted with things that had nothing to do with jiujitsu. This still happens in some gyms, but overwhelmingly, a lot of gyms I visit nowadays really try to maximize the training sessions and they waist as little time as possible.
Anthony Restuccia
Anthony Restuccia
Black beltVerified650 forum posts12595/1000
1 year(s) ago
Main thing I've noticed, at least compared to when I started 10 years ago, is most coaches just waist less time in training. When I started, we'd spend the first 30 minutes of the class running around the gym and doing calisthenics. The coach would then show one or two techniques, then we'd roll the rest of the time. Horrible class structure,most of the time, the coaches weren't planning their classes and just did whatever they thought of on the way to the mat, and a lot of time was wasted with things that had nothing to do with jiujitsu. This still happens in some gyms, but overwhelmingly, a lot of gyms I visit nowadays really try to maximize the training sessions and they waist as little time as possible.
That still happens at a lot of places unfortunately. We don't do the mega warm ups where I train. I think if they did, I'd probably skip them. I'm there for Jiu Jitsu, not aerobics.
Seth Spratlin
Seth Spratlin
Black beltVerified79 forum posts3040/1000
1 year(s) ago
The irony of commenting on this while being a mere brown belt is not lost on me.

But objectively, there’s just so much more information so readily available. A blue belt right now who is frustrated that they’re stuck in side control: they can get on their phone and see what 10 different world champions like to do, what 20 different jiu jitsu YouTubers (who are legit good) suggest, what the 10 best coaches in all of jiu jitsu teach to do, and that’s just the FREE stuff. If I spend an hour after class, I can have 87 different videos open, burn through the stuff I like and dislike, have notes for 3 different things I want to try next class along with where to get more information on any specific thing if I decide I like one of those. Heck, I can see what the best answers are for virtually any problem now and then filter my results by body type!

Contrast that with someone like Jocko who started training in the 90s - he talks about training with a purple belt as this crazy rare thing, black belts were like urban legends. They got excited then cause they had a BOOK, and a couple VHS tapes. It was basically the dark ages in terms sharing information. People who have trained from back then have stories about how it took them months and months of relentless hunting just to find a GYM.

Of COURSE people are getting better faster. Anybody who trains jiu jitsu whether as a hobby or to be a competitor, is now only constrained by their ability to spend time on the mats and internalize information.
Andrew Dodd
Andrew Dodd
Brown beltVerified117 forum posts1935/700
1 year(s) ago
I would love to see an objective history on the blackbelt taking around 10 years, since the first practitioners were basically judoka and got their belts in approximately four years or close to that. Unfortunately, it would be difficult to get unbiased info on this.
Anthony Restuccia
Anthony Restuccia
Black beltVerified650 forum posts12595/1000
1 year(s) ago
The irony of commenting on this while being a mere brown belt is not lost on me.
Dude, you're not a "mere" anything. You're a brown belt.
Slideyfoot [jun]
Slideyfoot [jun]
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1900 forum posts3635/1000
1 year(s) ago
The writer was insistent that this was a sign of the monetization of Jiu-jitsu and that the martial art was now watered down. It was his opinion that a Jiu-jitsu black belt did not have the same meaning as it did in the past because schools were handing them out to keep students.
Maybe some schools are, but I'd say that's mostly bollocks. Probably an 'old school' person being salty at the kids on his lawn.

I started grappling in 2003, then got to BJJ in 2006. I didn't get my black belt until 2023.

The people getting their black belts now, in just 8 or 9 years, are usually benefitting from the fairly indisputable fact that there is soooooo much more quality BJJ info and training out there. It's also way more accessible than before, with better pedagogy.

Given those facts, it would be weird if people weren't learning faster. Hence belts often come quicker than they used to.
Edited 1 year(s) ago
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified433 forum posts4005/400
1 year(s) ago
And yet despite the fact that we generally accept that belts should come quicker today than in decades past, there are still countless disputed ranks on this site because minimum times were not met.
Slideyfoot [jun]
Slideyfoot [jun]
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1900 forum posts3635/1000
1 year(s) ago
And yet despite the fact that we generally accept that belts should come quicker today than in decades past, there are still countless disputed ranks on this site because minimum times were not met.
That's normally on black belt degrees, I thought? As those are purely on time, meaning better teaching doesn't impact them.

Can you point to some examples? I don't pay that much attention to the disputed stuff, as I only vote for people I've met in person. ;)
Coachpotato
Coachpotato
Black belt 1st degreeVerified776 forum posts1920/1000
1 year(s) ago
At least in Finland the level is generally quite high and most higher belts are coaching regularly. This elevates the level of lower belts, they get really good really quickly. The time spent on the mats is usually more efficient than what the older generation had and blue belts are earned faster. But I feel like we generally follow the mafia (IBJJF) timelines for blue to purple, purple to brown and so forth.

Some gyms hand out belts for... let's say, different reasons. So there may or may not be some watered down belts in the mix.
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified433 forum posts4005/400
1 year(s) ago
That's normally on black belt degrees, I thought? As those are purely on time, meaning better teaching doesn't impact them. Can you point to some examples? I don't pay that much attention to the disputed stuff, as I only vote for people I've met in person. ;)
Regardless of what it's for my statement still stands. If you have two blackbelts with one training once a week and one training four times a week, which will improve faster if all else is equal? Using time as an arbitrary measuring stick is silly.

I also don't pay attention to disputed ranks unless they are specifically addressed on this forum and rarely vote for anyone I don't know personally or am at least familiar with their ability via a relatively short line from A to B. The only reason I know of it is because this has been discussed numerous times on this forum.
Slideyfoot [jun]
Slideyfoot [jun]
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1900 forum posts3635/1000
1 year(s) ago
Regardless of what it's for my statement still stands. If you have two blackbelts with one training once a week and one training four times a week, which will improve faster if all else is equal? Using time as an arbitrary measuring stick is silly. I also don't pay attention to disputed ranks unless they are specifically addressed on this forum and rarely vote for anyone I don't know personally or am at least familiar with their ability via a relatively short line from A to B. The only reason I know of it is because this has been discussed numerous times on this forum.
Yes, it's an incredibly silly measuring stick. That's why stripes are meaningless, as are belts after black belt.

So I don't think that's relevant to your statement. A third degree black belt hasn't necessarily got more skill compared to a second degree, they've just trained longer.

You were presumably referring to people getting TO black belt faster, not what happens once they've got it. Hence why I commented, as stripes/degrees etc don't matter. Or have I misunderstood your point?
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified433 forum posts4005/400
1 year(s) ago
Yes, it's an incredibly silly measuring stick. That's why stripes are meaningless, as are belts after black belt. So I don't think that's relevant to your statement. A third degree black belt hasn't necessarily got more skill compared to a second degree, they've just trained longer. You were presumably referring to people getting TO black belt faster, not what happens once they've got it. Hence why I commented, as stripes/degrees etc don't matter. Or have I misunderstood your point?
I think whether or not stripes are meaningless depends on how they are used. If they are awarded based on time with no regard to how much the person actually trains, I agree they are meaningless. At our gym they are awarded based on how many classes you attend; I think it takes ~200 classes to get 4 stripes. That still isn't an indictor of performance, but that isn't necessarily the intent. It's more a marker to recognize the work and indicate how close someone might be to the next belt. Maybe at white or blue belt they are a reasonable indicator of performance since improvement comes more quickly at that level, but for higher belts that's not the case.

I think it's very relevant to my point. A higher rank should be indicative of a higher level of something. As we age that might not be skill. It may be understanding or knowledge instead. A third degree black belt should have a higher level of something than a second degree.

I believe this thread was about people getting to black belt faster, but in order to do that you've also got to get to the other belts faster. They all have an arbitrary minimum time associated with them and all of those arbitrary times are silly. My original comment was for all belts. I only mentioned black belts because you did.

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