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Thoughts on Gracie blue belt legitimacy

1 year(s) ago • 1595 views • 24 replies

Scott Leggate
Scott Leggate
Blue beltVerified12 forum posts325/200
1 year(s) ago
Hey everyone,
I am curious to find out what the general consensus is on my blue belt legitimacy so I will try my best to explain my situation and training history.

I live in the Shetland Islands, north of Scotland and there are no bjj clubs here at all. The only martial arts club we have is a karate club.
The nearest club is in the Orkney Islands which is a 6 hour ferry trip away or an expensive 1 hour plane journey away. The next stop would be Aberdeen which is 12-14 hours on the ferry!

I started training around October 2011 with Reehan Sabri who was a purple belt at the time and was working in Shetland for 6 months. We trained in a small group twice a week in the gi until Reehan moved away. We then decided to keep training following the Gracie Combative instructionals where myself and another training partner managed to gain our Gracie blue belts in late 2013 through the Gracie Academy by submitting various videos demonstrating the techniques to be graded.
We continued with the master cycle course but I then moved to Australia in 2014 for a short time where I trained at the Submission Factory Geraldton under Oliver Murray for around 3-4 months in total both gi and nogi. I then returned to Shetland in late 2015 and started training with a small group of friends, mainly going through the Gracie Combatives curriculum again.
After a couple of years and various lower back problems the training stopped due to lack of a qualified instructor but I started up again with another small group after buying 30m2 of tatami mats and we have been training weekly, mainly in the gi now using what experience I had gained and more lately using Roy Deans blue belt requirements and various other instructionals to teach us new techniques.
Other than that, I have been away to Orkney SBG for a couple of sessions and had a session at Paraiso BJJ in Great Yarmouth this year. We have also had a few visiting students up to Shetland thanks to a post I put on the Globetrotters Facebook page and we even had a visiting Black Belt, Johnny Martin, from Rick Youngs academy in Edinburgh stop by for a couple of classes.
The aim now is to try and get off island a few times a year for some proper instruction and the rest of the year we will continue learning and training as we are at the moment.

My main questions are:
Would my blue belt be considered legitimate considering I was not awarded it by a physical instructor?
When I travel to other gyms, is it acceptable to wear my blue belt?

I am probably overthinking this as I know it is only a blue belt and I am not claiming to be a high ranking belt but I am in a bit of a unique situation due to where I live so would love to get some feedback from the bjj community on this!

Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Bobby McMasters
Bobby McMasters
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1272 forum posts12800/1000
1 year(s) ago
I'd ask Rener if HE recognizes your blue belt, and if HE thinks you should be wearing your blue belt at this point in time.
Mark Gilston
Mark Gilston
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified200 forum posts6335/1000
1 year(s) ago
Since you are occasionally visiting other schools which presumably have higher level instructors, you might want to vet your skill level against the blue belts in those schools. I don't think belt colors are really all that significant, especially at low levels, but if you can get an opinion from a visiting black belt, that certainly would help to know if you are implementing your training material well or not. I think it is extremely difficult to learn exclusively from videos, especially when your only feedback comes from other folks who haven't had experience with higher level practitioners. You may be able to perform the moves, but trial and error can only take you so far, and the subtleties and reactions that ultimately make you a high level grappler can only come from experience rolling with other higher level grapplers.

As to the question of whether you should wear your blue belt when visiting other gyms, I honestly doubt anyone would care one way or the other. Since you do at least know a significant bunch of techniques, it is probably not unreasonable to wear it to differentiate yourself from tyros.
Johan
Johan
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified1401 forum posts11370/1000
1 year(s) ago
After receiving heavy criticism from the community (the attached pic, which circulated at the time, speaks for itself), effective June 2014, Rener and Ryron themselves have stated that their remote blue belt is actually not an "official Gracie academy blue belt" but a "Gracie university technical blue belt". Which would indicate that they themselves don't recognize you as a BJJ blue belt if you're remotely promoted after that date. Which you were promoted before. You should in either case add lineage and actual evidence to your profile.

You can't really "do anything" (especially promote) with just a blue belt, so not the most important to defend the integrity of. I would personally not up vote, if your profile was open for voting. Would have to give it some thought about if I would down vote, but wouldn't be prioritized in either case and with the required total amount of time in BJJ, I wouldn't object to a later purple belt promotion without first getting a non-remote blue belt (which is another option for you and would just require the evaluation of a legit and non-remote BB, not hours upon hours).

If a pre 2014 Gracie university remote blue belt showed up to my academy and asked what belt to wear, I would tell them to decide themselves and draw their own conclusions during the class if they can confidently represent that belt in the company of non-remote blue belts. And (if they stuck around) tell them when they were at the point were I could offer them to be a recognized non-remote blue belt under my own lineage, if that would be of interest to them.

In either case, your main concern should be to focus on enjoying training together with your local training partners and simply improving your BJJ, regardless of what holds your gi together. Might take longer to BB if you're far from any BB instructors, but with today's technology, you probably have an easier time ahead of you than us early European BJJ adopters who had our instructors half way around the world. And once at BB, you can really be the local BJJ pioneer that the Shetland islands need!
Scott Leggate
Scott LeggateOP
Blue beltVerified12 forum posts325/200
1 year(s) ago
Since you are occasionally visiting other schools which presumably have higher level instructors, you might want to vet your skill level against the blue belts in those schools. I don't think belt colors are really all that significant, especially at low levels, but if you can get an opinion from a visiting black belt, that certainly would help to know if you are implementing your training material well or not. I think it is extremely difficult to learn exclusively from videos, especially when your only feedback comes from other folks who haven't had experience with higher level practitioners. You may be able to perform the moves, but trial and error can only take you so far, and the subtleties and reactions that ultimately make you a high level grappler can only come from experience rolling with other higher level grapplers. As to the question of whether you should wear your blue belt when visiting other gyms, I honestly doubt anyone would care one way or the other. Since you do at least know a significant bunch of techniques, it is probably not unreasonable to wear it to differentiate yourself from tyros.
Thanks for your input Mark.
I spoke to the visiting black belt we recently had along after our session and he said he he would say I am definitely at blue belt level and he feels the rest of our guys have very good basics and have a solid defence so he thinks we are training well.
He is coming back up to the island before the end of the year so will be getting in more training with him soon thankfully.
At the other gyms I have been to I generally get on well when rolling with 3 or 4 stripe white belts and lower level blue belts but would say I have found 3 or 4 stripe blue belts and purple belts a challenge.
I am going on holiday soon to Singapore and Australia for several weeks so I am looking forward to getting in some proper training done under qualified instructors while I am there.
Scott Leggate
Scott LeggateOP
Blue beltVerified12 forum posts325/200
1 year(s) ago
After receiving heavy criticism from the community (the attached pic, which circulated at the time, speaks for itself), effective June 2014, Rener and Ryron themselves have stated that their remote blue belt is actually not an "official Gracie academy blue belt" but a "Gracie university technical blue belt". Which would indicate that they themselves don't recognize you as a BJJ blue belt if you're remotely promoted after that date. Which you were promoted before. You should in either case add lineage and actual evidence to your profile. You can't really "do anything" (especially promote) with just a blue belt, so not the most important to defend the integrity of. I would personally not up vote, if your profile was open for voting. Would have to give it some thought about if I would down vote, but wouldn't be prioritized in either case and with the required total amount of time in BJJ, I wouldn't object to a later purple belt promotion without first getting a non-remote blue belt (which is another option for you and would just require the evaluation of a legit and non-remote BB, not hours upon hours). If a pre 2014 Gracie university remote blue belt showed up to my academy and asked what belt to wear, I would tell them to decide themselves and draw their own conclusions during the class if they can confidently represent that belt in the company of non-remote blue belts. And (if they stuck around) tell them when they were at the point were I could offer them to be a recognized non-remote blue belt under my own lineage, if that would be of interest to them. In either case, your main concern should be to focus on enjoying training together with your local training partners and simply improving your BJJ, regardless of what holds your gi together. Might take longer to BB if you're far from any BB instructors, but with today's technology, you probably have an easier time ahead of you than us early European BJJ adopters who had our instructors half way around the world. And once at BB, you can really be the local BJJ pioneer that the Shetland islands need!
Thanks for your reply Johan, I appreciate your thoughts.
I did initially have a photo of my blue belt certificate on my profile but it seems to have disappeared for some reason so I will get that added back on.
I only realised that the Gracie Academy no longer awarded blue belts to remote learners who completed the Combatives program around a year a go after one of the guys who trains with me passed his remote grading and was awarded a "combatives belt" which is basically a white belt with a blue stripe on it!

As you also mentioned, my main priority is just to train and hopefully improve along the way. Now we are getting a few more experienced belts along the club then hopefully at some point I will be able to progress through the ranks. Any time I am off the island, either for work or holidays, I am looking for clubs to join in on lessons so that will certainly help.
We have around 10 or 12 members training now and they have all fallen in love with it so that can only be a positive thing regardless of skill level.
William Murphy
William Murphy
Black belt 5th degreeVerified2143 forum posts25730/1000
1 year(s) ago
Aiden MacKenzie has an academy somewhere in Scotland.
He's not a bad fellow, for a Scot.
I don't know exactly where his academy is,
As I have never been completely sure if Scotland is real,
or just something the English made up to scare the Romans
From continuing their Imperial expansion under the Good Emperors.
Or so the story goes....
Joe Cavett
Joe Cavett
Purple beltVerified434 forum posts4005/400
1 year(s) ago
I also think you should base your own level on how well you do when you visit other academies. If you're doing well against other blue belts when you travel, then you're a legit blue belt.
Johan
Johan
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified1401 forum posts11370/1000
1 year(s) ago
That certificate looks indistinguishable from one issued for a promotion with the promoted person physically present and no mentioning of it being a lesser blue belt. The instructors who have signed it are no doubt legit to promote and set their own criteria, including regarding physical presence. Even if I really don't agree with it, so would not up vote.

Even if it was a physical presence promotion, certificates have been falsified before on Beltchecker, so I really think for the money involved, Gracie University blue belts should have gotten their name listed in a public list of certifications on their homepage. Without such a listing, I usually want to see that the promoted person have at least a photo together with the person who have signed the certificate, which is of course not applicable in this case.

Anyway, the Gracies who have signed the certificate are the sell outs here and that's not anything I blame a white belt in a remote location looking for BJJ instruction for. So after some thought, I've landed in just not voting but wishing you all the best in your continuing BJJ journey and what you can do for BJJ in the Shetland islands! I'll send you a message in the unlikely event that I would be passing by in the future :-)
Mirco
Mirco
Brown beltVerified805 forum posts5075/700
1 year(s) ago
In my humble opinion, although Scott hasn’t been promoted in person to „Gracie Academy blue belt“, but online by Rener and Ryron(which in the BJJ community isn’t well received and of course has a hint of something fishy) back then after training and running kind of a „garage group“, having achieved the prerequisites of GA, because of the circumstances in living in such a remote area like the Shetland Islands, I really admire and respect his effort in bringing Jiu Jitsu to his remote area, training and learning with likeminded people and friends for fun and enjoyment, bringing over other BJJ enthusiasts and hosting blackbelts at his place for training with his friends, traveling and training to learn at other clubs „BJJ globetrotter style“.
There are plenty of people who are very decent blackbelts today, who learned BJJ in a similar fashion back then the „old school way“, when almost no blackbelts were available for daily training and when people learned for themselves via trial and error and vhs tapes, hosting blackbelts at times and traveling for clinics and seminars or when the highest BJJ rank instructor of a team was a blue belt.
So I know it’s possible to grow and climb up the ranks that „old school way“, although of course it’s way slower than being able to train with and learn from blackbelts every day or every week!
Keep it up Scott, you can do it!
Scott Leggate
Scott LeggateOP
Blue beltVerified12 forum posts325/200
1 year(s) ago
Aiden MacKenzie has an academy somewhere in Scotland. He's not a bad fellow, for a Scot. I don't know exactly where his academy is, As I have never been completely sure if Scotland is real, or just something the English made up to scare the Romans From continuing their Imperial expansion under the Good Emperors. Or so the story goes....
William, you have a good Scottish name like William Wallace.
If you ever decide to discover if the rumours are true and go on your quest to discover the truth about Scotland then send me a message and we can train!
William Murphy
William Murphy
Black belt 5th degreeVerified2143 forum posts25730/1000
1 year(s) ago
William, you have a good Scottish name like William Wallace. If you ever decide to discover if the rumours are true and go on your quest to discover the truth about Scotland then send me a message and we can train!
The last time any of us attempted to do a seminar in Scotland, or even a trip,
Some of us were infected with lycanthropy,
Some of us almost died from alcohol poisoning,
Some of us almost got murdered, robbed, married, and productively studded and or mare'd by the same local population.
And by some of us, I am saying for a friend of mine,
whom you've never met,
because that friend was from Canada,
Another made up place.
William Murphy
William Murphy
Black belt 5th degreeVerified2143 forum posts25730/1000
1 year(s) ago
But in all cases, thank you for the invitation.
If you are in Florida,
We shall try to find you mats to train on,
or other such entertainments as our State may provide.
Bobby McMasters
Bobby McMasters
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1272 forum posts12800/1000
1 year(s) ago
I'd ask Rener if HE recognizes your blue belt, and if HE thinks you should be wearing your blue belt at this point in time.
I am genuinely curious as to what these guys would say to you regarding your rank. My guess is that you'd be asked to go out and test/pay a bunch more money. If you decided not to do that, my guess is that they wouldn't recognize the rank as legit, despite the fact that that was what was being sold to you to begin with.

How would you feel about reaching out to Rener/Ryron?
Scott Leggate
Scott LeggateOP
Blue beltVerified12 forum posts325/200
1 year(s) ago
I am genuinely curious as to what these guys would say to you regarding your rank. My guess is that you'd be asked to go out and test/pay a bunch more money. If you decided not to do that, my guess is that they wouldn't recognize the rank as legit, despite the fact that that was what was being sold to you to begin with. How would you feel about reaching out to Rener/Ryron?
Hi Bobby,
That’s actually a good question. It would be interesting to see what they say about it now as it’s been 12 years since I was awarded the belt and they have obviously changed there stance on the blue belt situation. If I go on the Gracie academy website then it has my name down as a Gracie blue belt.
As you mentioned about the money I was thinking I can’t remember how much it cost actually so I went back through my emails and found the cost to submit your test videos to be evaluated was $115.
I had to buy the Gracie combatives dvd set before that too but can’t remember how much they cost…maybe $100.
I will get in touch with them and see what their response is. I will post the reply up here also 👍
Bobby McMasters
Bobby McMasters
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1272 forum posts12800/1000
1 year(s) ago
I will get in touch with them and see what their response is. I will post the reply up here also 👍
Awesome! Looking forward to how/if they reply. Let us know how it goes!
Megaton
Megaton
Black beltVerified556 forum posts6875/1000
1 year(s) ago
I found this with some digging.
"Yes, Gracie University still recognizes blue belts awarded via video evaluation prior to June 1, 2014 as official blue belts. They introduced the “Technical Blue Belt” designation after that date to distinguish video-based promotions from in-person evaluations. But they explicitly stated that anyone who earned their blue belt through the original video process before the cutoff would be grandfathered in as having an official Gracie University Blue Belt. Check out the FAQ at the below link.

https://www.gracieunivers[...]nujQ%3d%3d

Scott Leggate
Scott LeggateOP
Blue beltVerified12 forum posts325/200
1 year(s) ago
I found this with some digging. "Yes, Gracie University still recognizes blue belts awarded via video evaluation prior to June 1, 2014 as official blue belts. They introduced the “Technical Blue Belt” designation after that date to distinguish video-based promotions from in-person evaluations. But they explicitly stated that anyone who earned their blue belt through the original video process before the cutoff would be grandfathered in as having an official Gracie University Blue Belt. Check out the FAQ at the below link. https://www.gracieunivers[...]nujQ%3d%3d
Cheers for that.
I have emailed them to see what they say about it but it looks like what you have found has already answered the question.
Be interesting to see their response to me though to confirm their stance on it.
Scott Leggate
Scott LeggateOP
Blue beltVerified12 forum posts325/200
11 month(s) ago
Gracie University have finally replied to me and it’s as Megaton said -

Hello Scott,

Thank you for reaching out with your question! Since the time you earned your blue belt through our system, we have changed our rank tests to where once a student completes the Gracie Combatives test successfully, they would be awarded the Gracie Combatives belt instead of the blue belt. However, we still honor the students who earned their blue belt upon passing the Gracie Combatives belt test previously, since that was what was required at that time. In our system, you still count as a blue belt.
Giles Garcia
Giles Garcia
Black belt 1st degreeVerifiedScotland25 forum posts6495/1000
11 month(s) ago
Hi Scott, putting in my two pence - I don't think people will ultimately care too much at this point, given how long you've had the belt for. Certainly, if you came to my club I wouldn't tell you to take it off.

It's can be difficult to run a club in any location with a small population, especially the islands, so respect to you for committing to it and building a wee community. With proper guidance from a seasoned black belt, you'll be able to structure your sessions in a way that you can figure stuff out quicker.

Remember, Australia has turned out the likes of Kit Dale, Craig Jones, Lachlan Giles etc when they didn't exactly have a load of black belts running around - this is because they had a good, tight knit group of folk who focused on problem-solving and would adapt their training sessions as needed.
Scott Leggate
Scott LeggateOP
Blue beltVerified12 forum posts325/200
11 month(s) ago
Hi Scott, putting in my two pence - I don't think people will ultimately care too much at this point, given how long you've had the belt for. Certainly, if you came to my club I wouldn't tell you to take it off. It's can be difficult to run a club in any location with a small population, especially the islands, so respect to you for committing to it and building a wee community. With proper guidance from a seasoned black belt, you'll be able to structure your sessions in a way that you can figure stuff out quicker. Remember, Australia has turned out the likes of Kit Dale, Craig Jones, Lachlan Giles etc when they didn't exactly have a load of black belts running around - this is because they had a good, tight knit group of folk who focused on problem-solving and would adapt their training sessions as needed.
Hi Giles,
Thanks for your input.
Yes we don’t have any other option on the island so we are doing what we can.
We have a good group of guys now who all have a good mentality and are just keen to train and learn as much as they can.
A few of our guys have visited different gyms when off the island for work or holiday and can bring back a bit of knowledge from whichever gym they manage to train at.
I see you are in Glasgow at Ronin. If me or any of the guys are in Glasgow I will get in touch with you and see if we can come along to a class or two 👍
Megaton
Megaton
Black beltVerified556 forum posts6875/1000
11 month(s) ago
Gracie University have finally replied to me and it’s as Megaton said - Hello Scott, Thank you for reaching out with your question! Since the time you earned your blue belt through our system, we have changed our rank tests to where once a student completes the Gracie Combatives test successfully, they would be awarded the Gracie Combatives belt instead of the blue belt. However, we still honor the students who earned their blue belt upon passing the Gracie Combatives belt test previously, since that was what was required at that time. In our system, you still count as a blue belt.
WOW, I was right?! Guess even a blind squirrel scores a nut once in a while!
Mirco
Mirco
Brown beltVerified805 forum posts5075/700
11 month(s) ago
Gracie University have finally replied to me and it’s as Megaton said - Hello Scott, Thank you for reaching out with your question! Since the time you earned your blue belt through our system, we have changed our rank tests to where once a student completes the Gracie Combatives test successfully, they would be awarded the Gracie Combatives belt instead of the blue belt. However, we still honor the students who earned their blue belt upon passing the Gracie Combatives belt test previously, since that was what was required at that time. In our system, you still count as a blue belt.
That's good news for you :-)

As i already said above there are plenty of people who are very decent blackbelts today, who learned BJJ in a similar fashion back then the „old school way“, when almost no blackbelts were available for daily training and when people learned for themselves via trial and error and vhs tapes, hosting blackbelts at times and traveling for clinics and seminars "globetrotters like" or when the highest BJJ instructor rank of a team was a blue belt....
You are on the mats since 2013 teaching, learning, training...so for me you are a legit bluebelt, espescially under the given circumstances of living that remote with no blackbelts available...
William Murphy
William Murphy
Black belt 5th degreeVerified2143 forum posts25730/1000
11 month(s) ago
As I get older, I shall be grateful to just be able to move around, enjoy a few bites of food, and knock out a pee and a bowel movement.
If one has a question about belt ranks, and ability, vale tudo competition, mma competition, grapple-fu point or sub only rulesets are all ways to resolve pee-pee questions, or the desire to put on a show for everyone's entertainment.
If one has a question about teaching, one can attend a class.
Outside of teaching ability, or competitive ability, or niche force on force self-defense training, what is left?
Just community service, usually given or recognized after death.
Regarding the question if people buy belts...sure I buy them from Amazon all the time.
They never seem to work, however.
Sometimes they fit around my waist, but sometimes they don't.
What is more outrageous, they never give me the ability to summon the powers of the Electric Knight, while performing breaking dancing and pop and lock dance floors moves.
What a rip off....

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