Here we are on Beltchecker, and people obviously have varying views on the deservedness of belts. In the landscape of jiu jitsu we have people who are great instructors with a very high skill level, and no competition performance (like Danaher). We have people who used knowledge acquisition very effectively and QUICKLY turned it into good competition performance (like Jozef Chen). But then you have people like Nicky and Jay Rod who primarily used athleticism, scrambles, and wrestling to beat high-level competition black belts while they were still at blue and purple belt themselves. They genuinely didn't have the traditional skill of a black belt at the time, but they had a finely tuned game that worked. Then there is the flip side - there is a watering down happening where many belts are awarded based purely on time in, even to those with very little actual skill or competition performance. As long as they checked the boxes and the right people put their belt on, then all is good. Unlike Judo, there is no true governing body of jiu jitsu. Even though some would like the IBJJF to be that standard, the reality is these belt promotion guidelines were historically never codified. So what are you actually measuring with belts today? Is it skill, performance, or time in? I have my opinion on this, but I am curious about the consensus here.

As to how we assess belt ranks, should we only judge an elephant by it's tail?

Here we are on Beltchecker, and people obviously have varying views on the deservedness of belts. In the landscape of jiu jitsu we have people who are great instructors with a very high skill level, and no competition performance (like Danaher). We have people who used knowledge acquisition very effectively and QUICKLY turned it into good competition performance (like Jozef Chen). But then you have people like Nicky and Jay Rod who primarily used athleticism, scrambles, and wrestling to beat high-level competition black belts while they were still at blue and purple belt themselves. They genuinely didn't have the traditional skill of a black belt at the time, but they had a finely tuned game that worked. Then there is the flip side - there is a watering down happening where many belts are awarded based purely on time in, even to those with very little actual skill or competition performance. As long as they checked the boxes and the right people put their belt on, then all is good. Unlike Judo, there is no true governing body of jiu jitsu. Even though some would like the IBJJF to be that standard, the reality is these belt promotion guidelines were historically never codified. So what are you actually measuring with belts today? Is it skill, performance, or time in? I have my opinion on this, but I am curious about the consensus here.

So what are you actually measuring with belts today? Is it skill, performance, or time in? I have my opinion on this, but I am curious about the consensus here.

The one thing that the vast majority of us can agree on are the standard IBJJF requirements as an absolute minimum, which don't include skill or performance.

I agree that the vast majority would agree, but there's also exceptions for every rule. For example Travis Stevens earning his black belt in 18 months.

I'm not sure what criteria Travis Stevens' promoting instructor was using when grading him, but I think we're going to be seeing fewer and fewer of these lightning-fast (legit, i.e. non-Moneyberg) promotions, imo. The pool of athletes has grown significantly in the past 13 years since he was promoted, and BJJ has otherwise changed and developed significantly since then as well. In the early days it was necessary for BJJ to make some high-profile black belts in order to continue to garner attention for the art, but I don't think that's really necessary, nor beneficial these days. You have to keep in mind that black belts are to some degree the stewards of BJJ, and in my opinion they should have a deeper familiarity with BJJ and its nuances and I don't think you can't get that in a short period of time. Imagine having to get surgery and you have a choice between a 13yo prodigy and a 43yo regular surgeon. Both have the same qualifications, but one has had way more time to mature. Of course, BJJ isn't as serious as surgery, but you get my point. One thing to consider is that in 2013, when Stevens received his BJJ black belt, the women's division at worlds included both black and brown belts for the next 3 years! Nowadays, they have a Master 7 women's division in both brown and black belt. Even in the case of Travis Stevens, again, in my opinion, there's no real rush to expedite his belt promotions, and I would say that's even more true nowadays.

I would think all these record fast BJJ black belts (no matter if we all recognize them or not) have in common that their receivers have really prioritized their own development in sparring rather than becoming the best instructors for others that they could be. Or "wasting" too much time developing others. So did any of them really have students which they promoted to black belt within 10½ years of themselves starting training BJJ? If not, the only traces left by their fast BB promotions are on their own belts. Then these are not anomalies which makes any difference in the long run and I too am getting the impression (and hope) that these rushed black belt promotions are becoming very uncommon.

You seem to forget or omit that black belt promotions back in the day were handled quite opposite to the way that you are describing. They were usually with the approval of the head of academy or head of network, not the person's local instructing black belt, regardless of rank. Helio Gracie or other senior supervising Gracies, would often give batsugen promotions. There was no ten year rule. People would sometimes skip belts, whole belts, if they were the exception. That was not common, but not extremely rare in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, nor Judo. Nor should that be a surprise, because as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was heavily derivative of pre-sportified Judo, And in pre-sportified Judo, and post Olympic Judo, batsugen promotions were not the most common, but not particularly rare. And in defined circumstances, clearly less than rare. Let's not re-write history for the relatively recent models that are now in place post-IBJJF. As a matter of fact, for someone so clearly critical of the IBJJF, you are very much evangelizing their particular model zealously, as if that was the historical norm (it was not), or like it should have Gospel Monopoly (it should not). It is the model you prefer, and the one the IBJJF uses. I tend to follow that model, myself. But, I remember the history well enough, and that is a relatively newer model for Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, or BJJ.

Still, would these - by today's standards - anomalies have left any lasting effects on the post UFC or post CBJJ generations of black belts? I sure hope I've never denied there being early BJJ black belts who wouldn't have met current time criteria for the promotions, but have any of those been followed by generation after generation spanning less than 10½y from start of training to promoting their own black belts? So that it, even after retroactive adjustment, would mean that their lineage successors today would not be legit black belts, using the 10½y criteria? My point was that we can both have these historical "anomalies" AND modern BJJ 10½y standards without having to throw any lineage under the bus for incompatible earlier standards. Better in another thread, but I would gladly go down the rabbit hole of earlier promotion standards in BJJ! It's by the way often forgotten, but IBJJF themselves have a time-in-rank exception for colored belts: "No minimum period if the athlete is the Adult [Belt color] Belt World Champion". But we didn't have any world championship before 1996 and also, the world championship is conveniently bound to IBJJF specifically, so I would still today be open to consider alternative merits as of equal dignity as a colored belt world champion and accept BB:s of <4½y in exceptional cases.

Is there an actual criteria on what a Black belt is or means... Personally I think belts are a BS creation to help motivate people.. Kano the guy who implemented them supposedly did so for implementing Judo in the school system in Japan kind of like grade level and grades. They mean different things to different people even here there is no consensus on a criteria for belts

Is there an actual criteria on what a Black belt is or means... Personally I think belts are a BS creation to help motivate people.. Kano the guy who implemented them supposedly did so for implementing Judo in the school system in Japan kind of like grade level and grades. They mean different things to different people even here there is no consensus on a criteria for belts

Also in my opinion this "2nd degree only can promote to black" belt rule is just illogical. Hypothetically when I'm a black belt I can promote someone to brown, who skill wise should be nearly a black belt. But then 3 years later when I get my first degree somehow my brain shuts down and I don't know if they are good enough for a black belt. This is just a belt gate keeping mechanism that was invented to keep students from starting their own schools. Also, what if 10 first degree black belts agree that a brown belt is ready for their black belt. That's somehow less legitimate than one second degree black belt? Illogical.

If you develop students who you promote to black belt and they immediately leave to start their own academy where they within three years have brought someone up from white belt level to a good black belt level, your student must really be a genius instructor and with incredibly hard working students! If you show me that happening, I might actually reconsider my stance (and would really like to learn from you and your student). Realistically, it would rather be a black and a brown belt leaving simultaneously from an academy and who "skill wise should be nearly" the same, to use your words. And who by all means keep developing each other sharing knowledge, experimenting and doing the stee-sharpens-steel-thingie, but is that comparable to the typical student/teacher relationship of a brown belt and a more senior black belt? I would argue not. And I speak from own experience, trying to develop in Sweden as a purple belt (and onwards) when we'd just recently completed the "dirty dozen" (first 12 BB:s) of Europe. Of course, it affects your development to not have a much more senior instructor around frequently. And sure the difference between a no degree black and brown (who a BB could had promoted to) is not that big, but a brown belt is just an encouragement and a displayed indicator of level (for e.g. competitions and pairing in sparring) while a black belt is not just an indicator of level but a trust placed in you to represent the style and lineage at a whole new level (not uncommon point where you start your own academy, preferably with the blessing of your own instructor) as well as a first step towards a "license to pass on the lineage". Even if it's skill wise not that angels come down blowing fanfares the moment the black belt is tied around your waist (many probably think to themselves "Was that all? I still suck!"), the black belt comes with so much more. And the "much more" is that you now have the seed, the soil, the water and the light of BJJ and it's a new beginning to a journey where you have increased agency. Trust, hope and potential have been invested in you, not someone just giving you a diploma saying "Congratulations! It's done!". And while years passed are not a perfect recipe for maturity, further development and perspective and I really don't know you, I'm still certain that your view on brown belts and their transition to black will be with a deepened understanding six years from now. And I'm meaning compared to yourself as a fresh black belt (a senior co-promotion away), not putting myself or any other senior BB on a pedestal. Every journey is different, but they tend to go towards the better. So if you are in that situation with your closest counterparts at your newly formed academy, why in such a rush to hand out black belts by yourself? We have a whole Beltchecker community with lots of senior black belts who would have no problem helping you out as co-promoting instructor within a couple of months. Not placing your students in a situation where their black belts (and those of future generations) could potentially be not recignized as legit in the future, even if you by a miracle manage to convince everyone specifically on Beltchecker, including me. Even if you think the 2:nd degree standard is not here to stay, is it here to go away any time soon, based on the wishes of a minority? If Jerry Sonenarong recognizes you as being co-promoted by him, the world lies open to you six years from now. And we can be grumpy old senior gate keeper black belts together :-)

Johan, the man who thinks a 3rd degree black belt can't approve promotions that they decide are legitimate, and likes to argue about words. Do you know how many black belt promotions in history have been done by an approving black belts who never even met or trained with the student being promoted (not in my case)? So sorry you don't understand the language "approve" but stop writing on my wall, and messaging my friends. You have bothered me quite enough, and the community deemed my evidence sufficient, so leave it alone.

You are not Sherlock Holmes and you are just inventing things in your mind to fit a narrative that you want to exist, based on your limited data. Again, leave me alone. It's hard to understand why the mods let your behavior stand, literally driving people away from using this platform.