Let’s shed some facts on this. 1) A lot of people on here claim that a promoting professor requires 2 stripes to promote another black belt. This is required by IBJJF. 2) A majority of those same people that dispute a BB promotion because their professor does not have 2 stripes, EVEN WITH APPROVAL FROM A BB WITH 2 STRIPES. 3) The same people are picking and choosing which rules to follow based on what they feel. 4) Unfortunately, feelings don’t trump facts. On page 12 of the IBJJF promoting guidelines, article 7.4.1 - An athlete who received a provisional Brown Belt and is later promoted to provisional Black Belt, while remaining under the same Professor and/or academy from the initial provisional graduation, may have the provisional Black Belt approved by a Second Degree Black Belt. However, if an athlete remains a provisional Brown Belt for less than one year, the provisional period resets once the provisional Black Belt is approved. In this case, the Professor who approves and signs the promotion must hold at least a Third Degree registered with IBJJF. So here’s the facts, if we are to recognize IBJJF as the CURRENT governing body, why not accept all of their rules and guidelines instead of picking and choosing? Why dispute someone’s black belt that has proof of an approved Senior black belt of a promotion? There has to be some form of governing body or at the very least a common ground set of rules. I understand that not everyone may agree with IBJJF and have their own standards but those standards need to be for your academy. Not everyone else. So what is the answer? Continue to let some users of this app to dictate someone’s legitimacy based on their feelings or have some sort of universal standard?

The IBJJF governs the rules for rank, regarding it's tournaments. That is the limits of what it governs, except what powers any person or gym gives it electively.

True. Was the rule of only a 2 stripe can promote a BB coined by someone other than IBJJF? If not then why follow that rule but not all of them?

Prior to the IBJJF, at one point it was black belt with 2 stripes, At one point it was black belt with one stripe, At one point promotions were mostly done by head of networks. In the original Gracie Brother gyms, there were two belts, white for students, blue for those approved to teach, and all promotions were personally approved by one of the Senior Gracie Brothers.... Hence why Helio, and Royce wear blue belts, not black belts, and their students wear black belts with blue bars, not red ones, when they are approved to teach. Until Oswaldo Fadda demonstrated that Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil is not the sole providence of the Gracie Brothers. Likewise, remind me, who was it that promoted the Senior Gracie Brothers to Red Belt... Like Mitsuyo Esai Maeda, aka Count Koma, did not recognize the Gracie Brothers as his students. Although he did recognize another Brazilian, Donato Pires dos Reis, as licensed by him to teach, and there are photos of the senior Gracie brothers, training in that gym, as assistant instructors. For that matter, Maeda spent more time training in Catch Wrestling gyms across the world than he did in Japan. And, of the senior Gracie Brothers, George Gracie had more fights than Helio or Carlos Sr, or the rest combined, but was cut out of the history to a large degree, for not being compliant with Carlos Sr's wishes. All of the Senior Gracie brothers, as well as Carlson Gracie Sr recruited students aggressively from the Luta Livre crowd, and often spot promoted them liberally. Helio Gracie was not an unathletic person, before or after Jiu-Jitus, in fact, he was quite an accomplished swimmer, and a good athlete. That is the history.

Prior to the IBJJF, at one point it was black belt with 2 stripes, At one point it was black belt with one stripe, At one point promotions were mostly done by head of networks. In the original Gracie Brother gyms, there were two or three belts, white for students, blue for those approved to teach, and dark blue for the Senior Black Belts, and all promotions were personally approved by one of the Senior Gracie Brothers.... Hence why Helio, and Royce wear blue belts, not black belts, and their students wear black belts with blue bars, not red ones, when they are approved to teach. Until Oswaldo Fadda demonstrated that Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil is not the sole providence of the Gracie Brothers. Likewise, remind me, who was it that promoted the Senior Gracie Brothers to Red Belt... Like Mitsuyo Esai Maeda, aka Count Koma, did not recognize the Gracie Brothers as his students. Although he did recognize another Brazilian, Donato Pires dos Reis, as licensed by him to teach, and there are photos of the senior Gracie brothers, training in that gym, as assistant instructors. For that matter, Maeda spent more time training in Catch Wrestling gyms across the world than he did in Japan. And, of the senior Gracie Brothers, George Gracie had more fights than Helio or Carlos Sr, or the rest combined, but was cut out of the history to a large degree, for not being compliant with Carlos Sr's wishes. All of the Senior Gracie brothers, as well as Carlson Gracie Sr recruited students aggressively from the Luta Livre crowd, and often spot promoted them liberally. Helio Gracie was not an unathletic person, before or after Jiu-Jitus, in fact, he was quite an accomplished swimmer, and a good athlete. That is the history.

William, do you have any insight on when this 2 stripe rule happened? There was surely a time when there was no stripes on black belts and so promotions were happening by "zero degree" black belts. When there was a lack of black belts in the U.S. it seemed to be commonly accepted that you could promote someone up to one belt below you (i.e. purple can promote to blue). Yet then at black you need 2 ranks above to promote. When did this arbitrary rule get made - is it just a product of IBJJF?

It gained adoption in the mid to late nineties, maybe even as late as 2000 or 2001, as far as I remember, before then 1 stripe black belts were widely promoting people to black belts. Likewise stripes on lower rank belts were not widely adopted, nor used at all prior to then. In fact, the stripes on lower belts, may have occurred in response to expanding into the U.S. market because of the resonance with the affirmation craving U.S. Tae Kwon Do, and Karate, everybody gets recognized regularly McDojo markets.

So here’s the facts, if we are to recognize IBJJF as the CURRENT governing body, why not accept all of their rules and guidelines instead of picking and choosing? Why dispute someone’s black belt that has proof of an approved Senior black belt of a promotion? There has to be some form of governing body or at the very least a common ground set of rules. I understand that not everyone may agree with IBJJF and have their own standards but those standards need to be for your academy. Not everyone else. So what is the answer? Continue to let some users of this app to dictate someone’s legitimacy based on their feelings or have some sort of universal standard?

It's one thing to not upvote someone if they don't meet your subjective standards, it's entirely another to downvote them for it I view down votes as fraud detected not "his instructor hasn't been a black belt for exactly 2191.5 days yet"

Who could you be talking about!?

It gained adoption in the mid to late nineties, maybe even as late as 2000 or 2001, as far as I remember, before then 1 stripe black belts were widely promoting people to black belts. Likewise stripes on lower rank belts were not widely adopted, nor used at all prior to then. In fact, the stripes on lower belts, may have occurred in response to expanding into the U.S. market because of the resonance with the affirmation craving U.S. Tae Kwon Do, and Karate, everybody gets recognized regularly McDojo markets, cultures. Plus, promoting people was a revenue stream for some, meaning even legitimate instructors, would sometimes charge their internal students, they trained regularly, a "promotion fee" - likely another imitation of the McDojo business practices prevalent in the U.S.

Where did you see or hear about 1:st degree BB:s promoting others to BB in the early 90:s (or earlier?) and have you heard of any of those promoted by a 1:st degree BB continuing a lineage which has continued with new generation black belts up to now? I have repeatedly challenged the Beltchecker community with finding a single member on Beltchecker with a lineage which include one or many documented BB promotions by a <2:nd degree BB during or before the early 90:s. Will you be the one to finally succeed and find someone? :-) While I still would argue that a standard is much needed, that the formalized 2:nd degree standard reflects nothing more strict than what was already widely applied when that standard was introduced and that the 2:nd degree standard is now so dominant (also outside the IBJJF) that all other attempts at introducing standards would be measured against it and declared a less-than or more-than. So if you agree a standard is needed, why fight what is already widely considered as the standard? If you don't think a standard is needed, that's of course ok too, but don't act so surprised when belts are checked based on the most widely applied standard on a site literally called Beltchecker :-). I don't think any unified standards proponents outside of IBJJF have expressed any approval of the mess which is provisional brown and black belts. So outside of IBJJF, that doesn't carry much more weight than the paying-money-to-IBJJF-for-years-to-count-parts (and the purpose is obviously the same, from IBJJF:s perspective, and it's not to benefit the wider community).

Now for the record, I can think of one person right off the bat, that I promoted to brown belt, Who was subsequently promoted to black belt, by another black belt, who did not have a second degree. So, if anyone might have had a cause to complain about that, it would probably be me, in that case. That person produced many high competitors, and is well known on the tournament circuits. Great guy, as well. But, he did not register here, he did not consent to be gossiped about, no one here is his judge, only himself. So, I am not going to spend any time on that matter. Nor would I tell Royce's networks they cannot have variations, or that Helio's grandsons' cannot have variations. That would be ridiculous of me, and is none of my business. They are real guys, and how they promote, is their business, not mine. If you disagree with their belts, take them off of them, in the mats, or in a ring, or in a cage, the old fashioned way. Not jawing, on the Interwebz.

You're thinking early 00:s, not 90:s. And I'm quite sure you're thinking about Roger Gracie with the paintball incident (also early 00:s). I too acknowledge that there are multiple standards, but the whole point of Beltchecker is that we vote and argue for the standard we support! You can't submit your profile for beltchecking on Beltchecker and cherry pick which standards you want it checked by. If you think the beltchecking should be done only from a homogenous standard regarding required lineage, promoters degree and evidence, that's only some lines of code away and anyone is free argue for that with the site admins!

I am guessing it was 1999, when I was there for the Brazilian National Championship. Could have been 2000, but I doubt it.

The paintball story is only relevant here to date your other observations, so you don't have to feel like I'm going to cast a dispute vote against it :-). It seems to have been just days after the July 2000 mundials in Rio and the four arrested were Roger Gracie Gomes, 19, Murilo Carvalho da Silva Neto, 22, Rafael Correia de Lima ("Gordinho"), 25 and Rafael Ramos, 19. That's what's reported in the press and if there was some mix up, where two of the arrested were innocent and Rolles Gracie managed to get away (or was left out of the news for some reason), I have no idea of knowing. Hopefully, they've all matured a lot since then in any case. (see e.g. https://www1.folha.uol.co[...]200019.htm) On the timeline, it's not before I had myself been to Rio a couple of times, even if we didn't train at the same academy. I would be very interested in what you remember (if you remember) how black belt promotions worked (just the Florida perspective?) when you were a white belt, in the early 90:s.

Not for nothing but the ibjjf made a fence post error with degrees and we're all just going along with it, and that's silly enough In every other martial art with a belt system as far as I'm aware the belt itself IS the first degree The basic belt is the first of that rank, it cant be a 0th degree So if you want to argue they need at least one stripe I'm fine with that but I'm not about to take standards made up by people that can't even count on their fingers

Who can say, I regret bringing it up, anyway, as it is ancient history, and indeed, I brought it up, only to jog my own memory, not to gossip about ancient history. Since the article did not mention him, then I retract my statement about Rolles Jr., and regret bringing the matter up, as it is, ancient history. Although, there were some talking to's that evening, beside the ones mentioned in the article you posted.... My perspective on promotions when I was a white belt are very limited. I remember that I moved to Orlando from Pensacola for the specific purpose to train at Marcio Simas's academy, as he was a black belt in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. Formerly I was a boxer / wrestler / Judo guy who was training submissions out of a shootboxing gym and on the UWF mats, with Kirk Ray, a student of Chris Haueter's, and none of us had Gracie Jiu-Jitsu rank, there. Kirk may have been a blue belt, but he never wore it. It was a no gi, with or without strikes, grappling gym and club. I did well enough on the mats, when I arrived, at Marcio's academy, but my own promotion to blue belt was held for a while, probably because I had come from another gym, and possibly because I had a big mouth. Marcio promoted me to blue belt after a while. The he partnered with Serigo Penha, and the two of them jointly promoted me to every belt, thereafter. No stripes on the colored belts, were used, until I was a brown belt, as I recall. Promotions occurred when the instructor promoted you, and it was usually after you did well enough in tournament, that people complained. Sandbagging (keeping people at lower belts for competition purposes) was the norm. There were no formal rules, that I am, or was aware of, of time between colored belts (less than black belt) for promotion, except when the instructor promoted you. Promotions were often done, to fill a spot in tournament, to maximize a tournament win, and were often held back, for the very same reason. But, then again, why would I know more than that? I was a colored belt then. Everything was by the permission and discretion, of the black belt instructors, or there were no promotions. The only reason I knew more, from time to time, is I was a mat enforcer, who spoke some Portuguese, and helped out with academy back end stuff. Marcio was my best friend in those years, we were together almost constantly, until I moved to Sarasota to train the Sarasota LEOs, in the Satellite academy I formed. Before then I would train at Marcio's and Sergio's and drive to Sarasota twice a week to train the LEO's. Then I moved there, because Marcio wanted a satellite academy, and satellite academies. All promotions at the Satellite academy were done by me recommending someone, and Marcio and Sergio approving, and they would come to the Sarasota academy from time to time to do that, Or we would go back up to Orlando. When Gracie Barra expanded into the U.S., Marcio Simas and Sergio Penha, dissolved their partnership, and the Florida Federation was also dissolved when Carlos Gracie Jr. decided that there would be no sanctioned State level Federations any longer. My memory is a little fuzzy, as that was all decades ago. But that is the gist of it.

You're correct: most martial arts start their bb degrees at 1st. BJJ does not, and it's not an IBJJF invention. I can't speak for most martial arts, but when I got my judo bb (1st degree = shodan) I wasn't able to get officially promoted by my coach, who was a 2nd degree at the time. I had to get promoted by a 3rd(+) degree, so there were still 2(+) degrees of separation required.

On the other hand, we top out at 9:th degree, which is really the 10:th degree, so same as in most other martial arts. Displaying degree on black belt with stripes was very rare (non existent?) in Sweden pre BJJ and I've always thought of it as an American thing (but I'm probably wrong there). Usually, the same black belt (with no visible degrees) was worn all the way up to whatever the next belt would be. So no need to worry about shodan (1:st dan) being awarded as a belt without any stripes. There are of course also very senior black belts in BJJ choosing to wear a black belt without stripes (I've also seen quite a few pictures of e.g. Carlson Sr wearing a black belt instead of coral, although with seven or eight stripes). So the conventions of actually displaying your degree on black belt is sometimes very relaxed. Not to mention the way many coral and red belts tie their belts, which you would probably correct a white belt if they did :-)

Likewise stripes on lower rank belts were not widely adopted, nor used at all prior to then. In fact, the stripes on lower belts, may have occurred in response to expanding into the U.S. market because of the resonance with the affirmation craving U.S. Tae Kwon Do, and Karate, everybody gets recognized regularly McDojo markets, cultures. Plus, promoting people was a revenue stream for some, meaning even legitimate instructors, would sometimes charge their internal students, they trained regularly, a "promotion fee" - likely another imitation of the McDojo business practices prevalent in the U.S.

This. People getting a stripe on their white belt and saying they got promoted drives me crazy. Getting a stripe is like getting your 3% cost of living adjustment at your job. All that means is that you didn't quit. That's not the same thing as getting promoted.

What is promotion except social affirmation? Although historically, the issue of "license to teach" by reputable person or authority to grant such license, was an idea. As were Laurels, earned through combat, or the honor, of losing, in honest combat, without the additional honor, of the laurels that go to the victor.