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Tapping/subs etiquette...
6 year(s) ago • 7289 views • 51 replies
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I'm not scared of heel hooks much more than anything else, armbars and kimuras more scary to me because of my personal injury history. I just think everyone needs a very solid understanding of how heel hooks work, where they are hit from and what your window and method to escape is. Heel hooks don't work without securing the knee line, so you start your escape when your knee becomes trapped. If you haven't cleared the knee line by the time they've dug out your heel then you need to be tapping like a woodpecker. I'm far more 'scared' of training seriously for a competition and losing a damn match before it even gets going - it happened to kelvin gastelum at the weekend and he's a 10th planet black belt! I actually have a ticket for the defence camp and not the leg lock camp, i want to get on the leg lock camp too though. The main reason I didn't sign up for it before is that a lot of the leg lockers love positions like 50:50, X-guard and RDLR which I have pretty much zero interest in. I also have a short attention span for shin-to-shin guard and truck.
Might see you at the defence camp, in that case. The dates are what will decide it for me. I am very keen to go to a US BJJ Globetrotter Camp in 2021 (probably Maine), especially as it will be both my 40th birthday that year and my pizza camp (assuming Heidelcamp runs ok in November, that's my 9th camp).
So ideally, covid etc will have calmed down enough that Maine can run ok in April/May, then NIels camps will be in September/October. We'll see. Arizona early in the year would be ok too, though I prefer the look of Maine because that's all self contained, something I really like about Heidelcamp and Winter Camp.
So ideally, covid etc will have calmed down enough that Maine can run ok in April/May, then NIels camps will be in September/October. We'll see. Arizona early in the year would be ok too, though I prefer the look of Maine because that's all self contained, something I really like about Heidelcamp and Winter Camp.
Black beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I rolled with a competitive cyclist when I was a WB and it was a painful experience being stuck in his closed guard. Quads o'doom ...
One thing I have for sure noticed is that having strong quads helps those butterfly sweeps that I have just started working on to a greater extent and finally forcing myself to work on my butterfly guard because I have been doing a lot more nogi and working out those quads so I can sweep those 250 to 300 pounders like I do the 180 pounders lol. Trying to butterfly sweep a near 300 pound guy is not the easiest thing to do. Seems like hamstrings are more useful for my open guard sweeps like scissor so just now starting to workout my hamstrings and quads on a regular basis. I've always had big legs without even working them out so will see how much of a difference it makes.
Most of my open guard sweeps it wasn't a huge deal but I have got to where I really like this opposite side of sweep leg inside, and sweep side leg outside, overhook on sweep side then pushing with the opposite sweep side leg and arm to get an easy butterfly sweep that almost seems way to easy once you get that overhook and some variations of the gordan ryan shoulder crunch when things get more complicated.
Most of my open guard sweeps it wasn't a huge deal but I have got to where I really like this opposite side of sweep leg inside, and sweep side leg outside, overhook on sweep side then pushing with the opposite sweep side leg and arm to get an easy butterfly sweep that almost seems way to easy once you get that overhook and some variations of the gordan ryan shoulder crunch when things get more complicated.
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I can literally stop some purple belts from passing my guard entirely....especially if they are not competition purple belts if I want. Not trying to brag, its just what I specialize in. Especially if they are not the aggressive type that's not willing to take chances. What gives me the hardest times are people who truly know how to use consistent constant pressure on the quads and fatigue the quad muscles or have the strength to actually close all the space. A purple belt that is not near my size or strength is going to have a very hard time against me if they are not aggressive and know how to use there weight and control my legs. Now obviously a competition purple belt should destroy my world and everything in it and smile slowly while doing it... There is a huge difference in general between people who compete and people who don't compete. And also people who are not aggressive and people that are aggressive. You combine that and I'd be willing to wager that I can stop any purple belt who doesn't compete and lacks aggression or the willingness to take risks for 5 minutes easy without much effort. And prob a 10 to 25% that I could actually tap them if I want...I've literally practiced the hook sweep over 10,000 times and prob have a better efficiency at it then some black belts. Does that make me a black belt or blue belt...no. Because I lack the overall well roundness and general knowledge of those that are. I don't really care about belts. In general I think they are stupid. The only reason why I ever even care is when certain competitions will not let you compete up in rank to challenge yourself as I am tired of being told that I am sand bagged I've stopped competing against white belts period and only compete at tournaments that let me go against blues. Again I don't really care about winning... I prefer to lose at least once a tournament so I have something to work on as normally someone will show you what your weakest at and then I can go back to practice and work on those weakness's that my opponents try to take advantage of. But just because your a purple belt or even a brown belt doesn't mean that you can pass my guard. Maybe you can. But maybe I can stop you, to think you can pass all white belts guards is I would say arrogant. I mean you should be able to...but I guarantee you there are some white belts that will give you trouble especially if they have already competed in over 100 matches regardless of the opponents competed against. And again I am a white belt...over 90% of white belts can not get past my guard unless I let them. Which that is very boring then If all I have to train with is white belts I have to let them work so I can also work on other things... At least 50% of blue belts will still really struggle to get past my guard and prob even 20% of blue belts can not get past my guard unless I let them work as well. Not bragging just my reality so in order for me to get better I have to let people work sometimes. If I just crush people or never let them get past my guard it hinders my growth. Even though I will never be Rickson Gracie I like letting people work at the start of a roll then working my way out of it then kinda starting the roll like most people do after I work out of something because at least then I will have gotten something out of each roll instead of just trying to win straight from the start and maybe not getting anything out of the roll at all. Once I successfully escape or counter whatever there initial plan is then I will go on the offensive if they are near my skill level. This ensures that I get something unique out of each roll hopefully.
Sounds like you are referring to your rank or belt level, not skill level. Rank doesn't always reflect skill. It doesn't take into consideration things like age, size, weight, strength, aggression, or competitiveness. For example, once we get past a certain age, our skills deteriorate, but our rank does not.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
Black beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Sounds like you are referring to your rank or belt level, not skill level. Rank doesn't always reflect skill. It doesn't take into consideration things like age, size, weight, strength, aggression, or competitiveness. For example, once we get past a certain age, our skill my deteriorate, but our rank does not.
I was just responding to your "I just can't imagine having an almost impassable guard as a white belt."
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
Black beltVerified
Purple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Hi, a white belt general input on tapping, submission and spazzing , based on personal experience and observations ...
I think some of you higher belts (or natural talents) probably forgot that as a white belt you simply do not know how the move, if you do want to move you don't know if the move is safe (for you or your partner), you do not know if your current position is safe etc. so you automatically go into a kind of spazzing mode. If they are young and/or athletic this can be potentially dangerous, both for them and their partner. I do not think there is always ego involved, it is sometimes simply an adrenaline fuelled experimentation mode.
I know I'm probably not making myself popular, but I do think that higher belts have a responsibility (and most do this extremely well) toward their new junior (ignorant) training partners ... and for me the most convincing way is going for chokes : one learns extremely fast that you're just at the mercy of the higher belt. Again, some arm, knee or whatever bar's are quite obvious that you can't get out of, but some simply do not feel that they can do you any harm until it's too late. I'm grateful to my parters that informed me during the first rolls that I was 'supposed to tap' now ... at that moment I was not even aware that I was in such a bad spot ;-)
PS : The situation Jorgen had with the wrestler is a bit different ... one can not assume a wrestler to be ignorant about this ...
I think some of you higher belts (or natural talents) probably forgot that as a white belt you simply do not know how the move, if you do want to move you don't know if the move is safe (for you or your partner), you do not know if your current position is safe etc. so you automatically go into a kind of spazzing mode. If they are young and/or athletic this can be potentially dangerous, both for them and their partner. I do not think there is always ego involved, it is sometimes simply an adrenaline fuelled experimentation mode.
I know I'm probably not making myself popular, but I do think that higher belts have a responsibility (and most do this extremely well) toward their new junior (ignorant) training partners ... and for me the most convincing way is going for chokes : one learns extremely fast that you're just at the mercy of the higher belt. Again, some arm, knee or whatever bar's are quite obvious that you can't get out of, but some simply do not feel that they can do you any harm until it's too late. I'm grateful to my parters that informed me during the first rolls that I was 'supposed to tap' now ... at that moment I was not even aware that I was in such a bad spot ;-)
PS : The situation Jorgen had with the wrestler is a bit different ... one can not assume a wrestler to be ignorant about this ...
Edited 6 year(s) ago
Black belt 1st degreeVerifiedCyprus
6 year(s) ago
Yeah, this is EXACTLY why I never, ever put a leglock on somebody, I'm terrified of something like that happening. Saying that, that's with the exception of kneebars, for some reason. Those feel safer, I guess because I'm wrapping most of my body along the length of their leg.
Nice sentiment. Whenever I roll (even comps) I try to be mindful of my partner and myself. In "old man bjj", everything is slower and generally submissions are applied carefully.
The problem is with young, fitter, stronger or better "warriors" with a point to prove, and sometimes little interest in proper application. I hate these battles, because whatever the outcome on paper, there is generally a healing period involved.
Guess I just need to toughen the heck up.
The problem is with young, fitter, stronger or better "warriors" with a point to prove, and sometimes little interest in proper application. I hate these battles, because whatever the outcome on paper, there is generally a healing period involved.
Guess I just need to toughen the heck up.
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
The problem is with young, fitter, stronger or better 'warriors' with a point to prove, and sometimes little interest in proper application.
Yep, this is why I don't roll with them. I often say it, but I think (assuming you have the luxury of choice) being picky with training partners is the single best thing you can do in terms of longevity and avoiding injury. That's even more important the older you get.
So for me, generally no white belts I don't already know well, nobody 15kg+ bigger than me, nobody especially aggressive. Which is why you'll see me saying "no thanks" to almost everybody at camps asking to roll, unless I know them already or I've watched them roll and they seem calm.
So for me, generally no white belts I don't already know well, nobody 15kg+ bigger than me, nobody especially aggressive. Which is why you'll see me saying "no thanks" to almost everybody at camps asking to roll, unless I know them already or I've watched them roll and they seem calm.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
Black belt 1st degreeVerifiedCyprus
6 year(s) ago
That's a good philosophy. When I do "avoid" a roll, it always comes with bit of a mental battle. "Why am I really doing this? Should I be good to go with everybody?"
The truth is, of course, you are 100% correct. These crazy rolls are a danger to everyone, and a benefit to nobody.
The truth is, of course, you are 100% correct. These crazy rolls are a danger to everyone, and a benefit to nobody.
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
When I do 'avoid' a roll, it always comes with bit of a mental battle. 'Why am I really doing this? Should I be good to go with everybody?'
Yeah, there is always a small internal voice asking "are you just scared of losing, you don't want a tough roll", it can be hard to shut it out. However, I think that's mostly ego and impostor syndrome talking. There is quite a lot of pressure in BJJ to roll with everyone, "I roll with everybody" is something you'll hear people say with pride.
To each their own, but I think that's also why you see a lot of black belts with messed up knees, bad backs, painful joints etc. Reading John Kavanagh's comment from a few years back made me double-down on my decision to not roll with people significantly bigger than me:
"I regret my first 10 years or so of MMA and grappling with people a lot heavier than me. I'm now left with a pretty serious neck condition that means my own ability to grapple is severely hampered. One wrong move could have me off the mats, in pretty severe pain for months. This has already happened a few times. I take comfort that I'm still able to demo and coach and use lessons learned on next generation, but I miss the mat."
https://www.espn.co.uk/mm[...]st-mistake
To each their own, but I think that's also why you see a lot of black belts with messed up knees, bad backs, painful joints etc. Reading John Kavanagh's comment from a few years back made me double-down on my decision to not roll with people significantly bigger than me:
"I regret my first 10 years or so of MMA and grappling with people a lot heavier than me. I'm now left with a pretty serious neck condition that means my own ability to grapple is severely hampered. One wrong move could have me off the mats, in pretty severe pain for months. This has already happened a few times. I take comfort that I'm still able to demo and coach and use lessons learned on next generation, but I miss the mat."
https://www.espn.co.uk/mm[...]st-mistake
Black beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
That's a good philosophy. When I do 'avoid' a roll, it always comes with bit of a mental battle. 'Why am I really doing this? Should I be good to go with everybody?' The truth is, of course, you are 100% correct. These crazy rolls are a danger to everyone, and a benefit to nobody.
I kind of like the idea of having 2 types of belts for each belt rank.
For example the normal belt for normal non competition style rolls.
And a belt with maybe a blue bar instead of a black one that says that either that person is a competitor or that they are choosing to roll extra hard today. Either or.
Like if you wake up and feel amazing and decide hey I want to roll hard today well you would wear the belt with the blue bar to let other people know. Or even if you are a competitor and your sore and need to recover and aren't trying to go as crazy as usual wear the other belt and that will let people know easier what type of spar your looking for. Even could have some other belt bar like yellow if your really injured and want to warn people. lol
I know all that sounds absurd but it would be useful especially for more diverse gyms that have a huge mix of older and younger, competitors and super casual type people. Though I'm sure then people wouldn't want to wear the yellow bar or any other thing as it would hurt there ego and were back and square 1. lol
For example the normal belt for normal non competition style rolls.
And a belt with maybe a blue bar instead of a black one that says that either that person is a competitor or that they are choosing to roll extra hard today. Either or.
Like if you wake up and feel amazing and decide hey I want to roll hard today well you would wear the belt with the blue bar to let other people know. Or even if you are a competitor and your sore and need to recover and aren't trying to go as crazy as usual wear the other belt and that will let people know easier what type of spar your looking for. Even could have some other belt bar like yellow if your really injured and want to warn people. lol
I know all that sounds absurd but it would be useful especially for more diverse gyms that have a huge mix of older and younger, competitors and super casual type people. Though I'm sure then people wouldn't want to wear the yellow bar or any other thing as it would hurt there ego and were back and square 1. lol
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Nice sentiment. Whenever I roll (even comps) I try to be mindful of my partner and myself. In 'old man bjj', everything is slower and generally submissions are applied carefully. The problem is with young, fitter, stronger or better 'warriors' with a point to prove, and sometimes little interest in proper application. I hate these battles, because whatever the outcome on paper, there is generally a healing period involved. Guess I just need to toughen the heck up.
I love this Murray,
You hit it exactly right - Long Live "Old Man BJJ" - Look after your training partners because, as we are seeing in lockdown, its bloody difficult to train without them :-)
I get tapped by everybody in the club when we roll. Some smash me and fold me into all the wrong shapes, some get me because I'm working on new stuff or areas where I am weak, some because I put myself in a situation where they can sub me.
Save rolling hard for competition build up and competition.
You hit it exactly right - Long Live "Old Man BJJ" - Look after your training partners because, as we are seeing in lockdown, its bloody difficult to train without them :-)
I get tapped by everybody in the club when we roll. Some smash me and fold me into all the wrong shapes, some get me because I'm working on new stuff or areas where I am weak, some because I put myself in a situation where they can sub me.
Save rolling hard for competition build up and competition.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
Purple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I kind of like the idea of having 2 types of belts for each belt rank. For example the normal belt for normal non competition style rolls. And a belt with maybe a blue bar instead of a black one that says that either that person is a competitor or that they are choosing to roll extra hard today. Either or. Like if you wake up and feel amazing and decide hey I want to roll hard today well you would wear the belt with the blue bar to let other people know. Or even if you are a competitor and your sore and need to recover and aren't trying to go as crazy as usual wear the other belt and that will let people know easier what type of spar your looking for. Even could have some other belt bar like yellow if your really injured and want to warn people. lol I know all that sounds absurd but it would be useful especially for more diverse gyms that have a huge mix of older and younger, competitors and super casual type people. Though I'm sure then people wouldn't want to wear the yellow bar or any other thing as it would hurt there ego and were back and square 1. lol
Sounds like those glow-in-the-dark wristbands at University parties that let people know if you're DTF!
Black belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I love this Murray, You hit it exactly right - Long Live 'Old Man BJJ' - Look after your training partners because, as we are seeing in lockdown, its bloody difficult to train without them :-) I get tapped by everybody in the club when we roll. Some smash me and fold me into all the wrong shapes, some get me because I'm working on new stuff or areas where I am weak, some because I put myself in a situation where they can sub me. Save rolling hard for competition build up and competition.
This ++
What does DTF mean?
What does DTF mean?
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
Black beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I thought being DTF means that person is a Danaher Tutorials Fan.
Black beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
DTF = Down to Fuck as per https://www.urbandictiona[...]=DTF%20FTT
So university students wear bands that let you know they're DTF? Man, this generation has it to easy, we had nothing but our lame ass game. No tinder etc, and certainly no bands.
You know you're getting old when you got to look up shit like this.
So university students wear bands that let you know they're DTF? Man, this generation has it to easy, we had nothing but our lame ass game. No tinder etc, and certainly no bands.
You know you're getting old when you got to look up shit like this.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
Purple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I thought being DTF means that person is a Danaher Tutorials Fan.
I don't think there's enough of those to warrant an acronym! I mean i buy them but 'fan', no. I play them on 1.5x speed if you know what i mean.
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
You were 50/50 up until the part where he yanked his arm out... after that.. Its 100% all on him. even not knowing that, that was a bad idea. someone should have addressed that in those situations,, tapping is the best option. but its a lesson learned and you felt bad and even try to see if he was alright. but some people ego need that type of checks and balances.



