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BJJ does not exist / has vanished
5 year(s) ago • 1493 views • 58 replies
![Slideyfoot [jun]](userimg/5e25cf311adfd.jpg){kind=small}
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Pfft! It's F'O DA STREEZ' not 'for the str33ts'!!!!!!!
It's like the ving tsun/wing tsun/wing chun/Wang Chung Dance Hall Days terminology fight all over again. :P
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
It's like the ving tsun/wing tsun/wing chun/Wang Chung Dance Hall Days terminology fight all over again. :P
Ahem
MBrown beltVerified
AKPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I remember trying a club that advertised itself as MMA but was actually doing NoGi BJJ. I was absolutely horrified by their lack of self awareness. My view has changed slightly, particularly as i've started to understand control points better. My real issue with that club is that people weren't protecting their faces whilst they had no real control of me, just some shitty guard variations meaning that I could have dropped bombs on them from top position. I've done this in MMA competition so i'm really not just talking theoretically here. Today, I appreciate that there's more of a grey area whereby control of their balance (via a control point) means that they are only likely to be able to offload rabbit punches for a short while which might be a worthwhile trade. I could cite examples from the UFC of it going both ways - people getting pounded out in 50:50 and people eating a slam on their way to a triangle.
As for Gracie, it's the fucking IBJJF that drives all the behaviours he doesn't like so go talk to your own family.
As for Gracie, it's the fucking IBJJF that drives all the behaviours he doesn't like so go talk to your own family.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I like the triple I method of SBG, introduction, isolation integration....so you can definitely can train self defense oriented with timing, energy and motion in my opinion
Yes. And SBG people have always been adamant that Jiu jitsu is not enough, you should also wrestle and box and essentially do MMA if you're interested in self defence.
People who start to talk about "self-defence" as a true integral separate part distinct from the sport/ground focused aspects are akin to people who start to talk about strikes and punch defence in "true judo".
People who start to talk about "self-defence" as a true integral separate part distinct from the sport/ground focused aspects are akin to people who start to talk about strikes and punch defence in "true judo".
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
....and now there isn't Brazilian Jiu Jitsu anymore in the US? ......Some doing now "American Jiu Jitsu", as i today found on social media:
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]=emb_title
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]=emb_title
AKPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
....and now there isn't Brazilian Jiu Jitsu anymore in the US? ......Some doing now 'American Jiu Jitsu', as i today found on social media: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]=emb_title
Now you know how it feels to be English. We've had our entire language hijacked by them. It was cute when they started using "fanny" and "pants" in a weird way, but now they've got absolute nonsense like "bangs" instead of fringe.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Now you know how it feels to be English. We've had our entire language hijacked by them. It was cute when they started using 'fanny' and 'pants' in a weird way, but now they've got absolute nonsense like 'bangs' instead of fringe.
Ha, so THAT'S what bangs are! TIL. ;)
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
....and now there isn't Brazilian Jiu Jitsu anymore in the US? ......Some doing now 'American Jiu Jitsu', as i today found on social media: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]=emb_title
I think I just died a little inside. I'm now waiting for American Kenjutsu, American Medieval Knights and American Shaolin Kung Fu. *facepalm*
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Did you guys even watch the trailer?
1) It's obviously click/watchbait
2) I don't see there's any real appropriation or that there's anything wrong with that approach. Brazilians can't expect the sport to grow and globalise AND keep a tight hold over that. You can't have the cake and eat it too.
1) It's obviously click/watchbait
2) I don't see there's any real appropriation or that there's anything wrong with that approach. Brazilians can't expect the sport to grow and globalise AND keep a tight hold over that. You can't have the cake and eat it too.
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Did you guys even watch the trailer? 1) It's obviously click/watchbait 2) I don't see there's any real appropriation or that there's anything wrong with that approach. Brazilians can't expect the sport to grow and globalise AND keep a tight hold over that. You can't have the cake and eat it too.
Yes I did. My issue wasn't the pushback against the brazilians, I'm kind of all for that. I generally find the stamping of "American" on it as well as the painting of red white and blue all over everything a bit cringy. Admittedly, that's a personal matter.
Additionally, I just find it a bit strange to call Americans doing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu "American Jiu-Jitsu". It'd be different if they were doing something completely different with a completely different focus and ruleset, like for example German Jiu-Jitsu (which is both a thing and waaaaaaay different from BJJ). I'll admit the cringe may have made me overlook something deeper.
Additionally, I just find it a bit strange to call Americans doing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu "American Jiu-Jitsu". It'd be different if they were doing something completely different with a completely different focus and ruleset, like for example German Jiu-Jitsu (which is both a thing and waaaaaaay different from BJJ). I'll admit the cringe may have made me overlook something deeper.
AKPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Ha, so THAT'S what bangs are! TIL. ;)
Took me ages to translate what they were saying. At least "fanny pack" has some logic to it.
GFWhite beltVerified
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I think all Mundials champs of 2020 regardless of weight class could've done what Royce did in 1993 (if magically teleported back in time).
Hmmm ... disagree unless they specifically train striking for at least 6 months.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Hmmm ... disagree unless they specifically train striking for at least 6 months.
It's an interesting question. Royce was never all that special, he lacked an impressive competition pedigree, though he was certainly competent and he was tough (you'd have to be, to step in against some of the monsters he fought in the early UFCs, in terms of their size and power at least). His contemporaries in the early to mid 90s could definitely have done what he did, I am certain: any of the top guys from Carlson's crew would have wiped the floor with UFC 1 opposition.
In 2020 BJJ is quite different, people aren't used to dealing with strikes like Royce would have been, or his contemporaries would have been too Though I suspect most World champs today would still have such a massive skill disparity compared to UFC 1 opponents that they would be able to succeed. Gordeau was a legit striker, but he was in bad shape by the final (with a broken hand and several teeth embedded in his foot). Shamrock I guess could have gotten lucky, but his skills in 1993 were a long way off 2020 World champs. Art Jimmerson would have tapped just as quick after getting mounted.
In 2020 BJJ is quite different, people aren't used to dealing with strikes like Royce would have been, or his contemporaries would have been too Though I suspect most World champs today would still have such a massive skill disparity compared to UFC 1 opponents that they would be able to succeed. Gordeau was a legit striker, but he was in bad shape by the final (with a broken hand and several teeth embedded in his foot). Shamrock I guess could have gotten lucky, but his skills in 1993 were a long way off 2020 World champs. Art Jimmerson would have tapped just as quick after getting mounted.
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
It's an interesting question. Royce was never all that special, he lacked an impressive competition pedigree, though he was certainly competent and he was tough (you'd have to be, to step in against some of the monsters he fought in the early UFCs, in terms of their size and power at least). His contemporaries in the early to mid 90s could definitely have done what he did, I am certain: any of the top guys from Carlson's crew would have wiped the floor with UFC 1 opposition. In 2020 BJJ is quite different, people aren't used to dealing with strikes like Royce would have been, or his contemporaries would have been too Though I suspect most World champs today would still have such a massive skill disparity compared to UFC 1 opponents that they would be able to succeed. Gordeau was a legit striker, but he was in bad shape by the final (with a broken hand and several teeth embedded in his foot). Shamrock I guess could have gotten lucky, but his skills in 1993 were a long way off 2020 World champs. Art Jimmerson would have tapped just as quick after getting mounted.
Good post.
Once in a while I would do a self defense class in our mostly competition oriented school and while they enjoyed the change in pace and style, man did they ever suck. Killer purple belts who had no idea how to throw a punch. Just doing drills with uke doing 1-2s followed by nage doing a double leg was kind of sad to watch.
"Punch a black belt in the face, he becomes a brown belt. Punch him again, purple…" Carlson Sr.
Once in a while I would do a self defense class in our mostly competition oriented school and while they enjoyed the change in pace and style, man did they ever suck. Killer purple belts who had no idea how to throw a punch. Just doing drills with uke doing 1-2s followed by nage doing a double leg was kind of sad to watch.
"Punch a black belt in the face, he becomes a brown belt. Punch him again, purple…" Carlson Sr.
TPBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
The 'traditional Gracie self-defence' was and probably in many places still is DEAD TECHNIQUES DRILLED IN DEAD MANNER AGAINST UNRESISITNG OPPONENTS.
We had one of our black belts, who is also a martial arts historian, run a Self Defense class for a while. Practically techniques from the traditional Gracie system, weapon defenses and all.
I also participated whenever I could, but purely from the historical and educational purposes. I think it was interesting to gain some practical knowledge of this, largely useless IMO, part of BJJ.
The classes ended after a while because they were not popular enough. I believe most were BJJ practitioners who had similar interest to mine. From my experience, very few seeks out a BJJ school in Finland to train for "self defence", and very few BJJ schools even advertise themselves as "self defense".
Demian Maia, under whom our gym kinda is (our black belts are awarded by him), had a system incorporating self defense to his classes that I nearly liked: for the warm-up drills he would have us doing self defense movements, like certain things to counter a strike. Then the actual technique portion would be something actually useful. :D Also the experience of seeing all the BJJ people trying to throw a basic punch was similar to Deepu's... quite embarrassing.
I also participated whenever I could, but purely from the historical and educational purposes. I think it was interesting to gain some practical knowledge of this, largely useless IMO, part of BJJ.
The classes ended after a while because they were not popular enough. I believe most were BJJ practitioners who had similar interest to mine. From my experience, very few seeks out a BJJ school in Finland to train for "self defence", and very few BJJ schools even advertise themselves as "self defense".
Demian Maia, under whom our gym kinda is (our black belts are awarded by him), had a system incorporating self defense to his classes that I nearly liked: for the warm-up drills he would have us doing self defense movements, like certain things to counter a strike. Then the actual technique portion would be something actually useful. :D Also the experience of seeing all the BJJ people trying to throw a basic punch was similar to Deepu's... quite embarrassing.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Good post. Once in a while I would do a self defense class in our mostly competition oriented school and while they enjoyed the change in pace and style, man did they ever suck. Killer purple belts who had no idea how to throw a punch. Just doing drills with uke doing 1-2s followed by nage doing a double leg was kind of sad to watch. 'Punch a black belt in the face, he becomes a brown belt. Punch him again, purple…' Carlson Sr.
We put mma gloves and mouthpieces on every other week to keep it real. We teach the self defense program too.. It is usually our busiest class.
Different strokes for different strokes. If they want to focus purely on sport and nothing else, then I will refer them to my friends academies depending on location.
Different strokes for different strokes. If they want to focus purely on sport and nothing else, then I will refer them to my friends academies depending on location.
AKPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
We do a mixture of MMA and BJJ training, I don't find much difference in the defence. Offensively side control and mount become better. But fundamentally strikes relinquish a bit of a control so it's more than I don't stall when doing MMA, rather than doing vastly different techniques. Knife and weapon defence is something I consider a myth. But again, the hand is either controlling me, punching me or stabbing me - it can't do all of those at once.
TSBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread yet, but wanted to put in my 2 cents anyway.
To start with I respect the abilities and accomplishments of many of the Gracie family. It is absolutely true that I likely wouldn't be a Jiu-Jitsu practicing today if it wasn't for the Gracie family. That said, and keeping in mind that the Gracie family is huge, and full of many individuals who deserve to be evaluated as individuals, I'm going to point out that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu wasn't in fact created by the Gracies. What the Gracies did was created their own legend, and built their own brand, and claimed to invent something they didn't. I believe the Gracies did much to develope Jiu-Jitsu, but their claim that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is the only real Jiu-Jitsu is crap. There are plenty of practicioners who contributed as much as the Gracies, some remembered, some not because they were not the self promoters that the Gracies were...
To start with I respect the abilities and accomplishments of many of the Gracie family. It is absolutely true that I likely wouldn't be a Jiu-Jitsu practicing today if it wasn't for the Gracie family. That said, and keeping in mind that the Gracie family is huge, and full of many individuals who deserve to be evaluated as individuals, I'm going to point out that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu wasn't in fact created by the Gracies. What the Gracies did was created their own legend, and built their own brand, and claimed to invent something they didn't. I believe the Gracies did much to develope Jiu-Jitsu, but their claim that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is the only real Jiu-Jitsu is crap. There are plenty of practicioners who contributed as much as the Gracies, some remembered, some not because they were not the self promoters that the Gracies were...
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
We put mma gloves and mouthpieces on every other week to keep it real. We teach the self defense program too.. It is usually our busiest class. Different strokes for different strokes. If they want to focus purely on sport and nothing else, then I will refer them to my friends academies depending on location.
Same here!
I think what you don’t train on a regular basis under stress/resisting opponent, you can’t pull it off .
So if you are not used to get punched in the face or learning punch defense in training, it would be harder to deal whit it when the shit hits the fan.
I think what you don’t train on a regular basis under stress/resisting opponent, you can’t pull it off .
So if you are not used to get punched in the face or learning punch defense in training, it would be harder to deal whit it when the shit hits the fan.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
To start with I respect the abilities and accomplishments of many of the Gracie family. It is absolutely true that I likely wouldn't be a Jiu-Jitsu practicing today if it wasn't for the Gracie family. That said, and keeping in mind that the Gracie family is huge, and full of many individuals who deserve to be evaluated as individuals, I'm going to point out that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu wasn't in fact created by the Gracies. What the Gracies did was created their own legend, and built their own brand, and claimed to invent something they didn't.
Yeah, it's a common problem. People always want to be THE CREATOR, or THE FOUNDER. Unfortunately being "the person who helped develop, systematise and popularise" isn't seen as high status and certainly seems to be less popular as a marketing approach, even though it is usually closer to the truth.
E.g., BJJ came from judo, but you'll still see Rorion and others insist that it was actually from some random conglomeration of jujitsu styles instead, because he doesn't like to acknowledge the importance of judo. Even Maeda often doesn't get referred to as what he was - a judoka - but instead all kinds of extras get attached, like "oh, well he did a lot of prize fighting so that changed it all, it wasn't judo." Then there are all the numerous other people before, during and after Maeda's time who were also influential on BJJ's original development, like Miura, Sada Miyako and indeed Brazilians like Mario Aleixo (who was apparently teaching in 1913).
It happens with technical developments too, though to be fair, it isn't always the people themselves pretending they were totally original. IIRC, Eddie Bravo made a concerted effort to cite his sources (in Mastering the Rubber Guard, at least), so he talks about getting the twister from wrestling, it wasn't something he made up. He talks about what he called the old school sweep as being something he learned from JJ Machado. I can't remember if he also pointed to Nino Schembri with regards to rubber guard, but it wouldn't surprise me.
That's one of the things I like about Priit too. He doesn't pretend he created everything he does from scratch. What he did was just as valuable, which was tweaking, systematising and popularising a disparate group of techniques, which he got from watching people like Braulio ('grilled chicken' open guard), Saulo (running escape) and Telles (turtle). People should always cite their sources, I always really appreciate it when instructors take the time to do that.
E.g., BJJ came from judo, but you'll still see Rorion and others insist that it was actually from some random conglomeration of jujitsu styles instead, because he doesn't like to acknowledge the importance of judo. Even Maeda often doesn't get referred to as what he was - a judoka - but instead all kinds of extras get attached, like "oh, well he did a lot of prize fighting so that changed it all, it wasn't judo." Then there are all the numerous other people before, during and after Maeda's time who were also influential on BJJ's original development, like Miura, Sada Miyako and indeed Brazilians like Mario Aleixo (who was apparently teaching in 1913).
It happens with technical developments too, though to be fair, it isn't always the people themselves pretending they were totally original. IIRC, Eddie Bravo made a concerted effort to cite his sources (in Mastering the Rubber Guard, at least), so he talks about getting the twister from wrestling, it wasn't something he made up. He talks about what he called the old school sweep as being something he learned from JJ Machado. I can't remember if he also pointed to Nino Schembri with regards to rubber guard, but it wouldn't surprise me.
That's one of the things I like about Priit too. He doesn't pretend he created everything he does from scratch. What he did was just as valuable, which was tweaking, systematising and popularising a disparate group of techniques, which he got from watching people like Braulio ('grilled chicken' open guard), Saulo (running escape) and Telles (turtle). People should always cite their sources, I always really appreciate it when instructors take the time to do that.
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
We put mma gloves and mouthpieces on every other week to keep it real. We teach the self defense program too.. It is usually our busiest class. Different strokes for different strokes. If they want to focus purely on sport and nothing else, then I will refer them to my friends academies depending on location.
We did that back in the day. Warm ups were often mma and wrestling drills. As we grew in size though, things started to change to a more sport bjj environment.
AKPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Shamrock I guess could have gotten lucky, but his skills in 1993 were a long way off 2020 World champs.
Lucky?? What blasphemy is this! Priit told me off once for saying Shamrock did lousy heel hooks!
Shamrock was a good fighter by 1993 standards and he had ~15kg on Royce. Ken's problem was his damn attitude, he had to be the toughest guy in the gym and had nothing but contempt for BJJ. He underestimated Royce in their first match because Royce's biceps weren't big enough for his liking. He had 15 months to learn about guard before they fought again but decided to just sit in top guard and take zero risk.
You can make this claim about any sport. The England World Cup winning team of 1966 would lose matches in League One today. When you look at photos of Will Carling, it looks like the team was short of a player and asked the water boy to make up the numbers (that's a reference to the rampant steroid use by the way), Arnold Schwarzenegger vs Ronnie Coleman = no comparison, according to Keenan Cornelius, a certain Rickson Gracie was a "tough purple belt" by todays standards.
Shamrock was a good fighter by 1993 standards and he had ~15kg on Royce. Ken's problem was his damn attitude, he had to be the toughest guy in the gym and had nothing but contempt for BJJ. He underestimated Royce in their first match because Royce's biceps weren't big enough for his liking. He had 15 months to learn about guard before they fought again but decided to just sit in top guard and take zero risk.
You can make this claim about any sport. The England World Cup winning team of 1966 would lose matches in League One today. When you look at photos of Will Carling, it looks like the team was short of a player and asked the water boy to make up the numbers (that's a reference to the rampant steroid use by the way), Arnold Schwarzenegger vs Ronnie Coleman = no comparison, according to Keenan Cornelius, a certain Rickson Gracie was a "tough purple belt" by todays standards.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Too much worrying about what other people are doing.. Martial arts are like a living breathing thing and either evolve and adapt or become extinct..
People need to worry about themselves not everyone else.. Let's face it many members of the Gracie family have always played fast and loose with the truth and have always been about the money
People need to worry about themselves not everyone else.. Let's face it many members of the Gracie family have always played fast and loose with the truth and have always been about the money
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Lucky?? What blasphemy is this!
He certainly wasn't clueless (I'd have to dig out my Shamrock books to remind myself exactly what his training pedigree was in 1993, but I don't recall him having spent all that long in Japan by that point), but he also definitely wasn't at black belt BJJ level. Royce he had a chance of beating, 2020 World champ level, nope. ESPECIALLY with 2020 leglock defence knowledge.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
He certainly wasn't clueless (I'd have to dig out my Shamrock books to remind myself exactly what his training pedigree was in 1993), but he also definitely wasn't at black belt BJJ level. Royce he had a chance of beating, 2020 World champ level, nope.
No way can Shamrock at anytime in his career could beat a present day World class grappler on the ground. Grappling and the sport of MMA has evolved way past what it was
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
No way can Shamrock at anytime in his career could beat a present day World class grappler on the ground. Grappling and the sport of MMA has evolved way past what it was
Agreed. IIRC Shamrock had about 3 or 4 years pro-wrestling in Japan by 1993, so that's enough to get some understanding of leglocks, but keeping in mind this was still pro-wrestling, even if it was stiff-worked matches. So particularly with the massive strength advantage, I can imagine somebody like that maybe getting lucky against a guy like Royce, who I wouldn't have thought was used to people going after his legs back in the early 1990s. Still unlikely though
Against a present day elite grappler, Shamrock would have no chance. Not in the same league at all.
Against a present day elite grappler, Shamrock would have no chance. Not in the same league at all.
AKPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
He certainly wasn't clueless (I'd have to dig out my Shamrock books to remind myself exactly what his training pedigree was in 1993, but I don't recall him having spent all that long in Japan by that point), but he also definitely wasn't at black belt BJJ level. Royce he had a chance of beating, 2020 World champ level, nope. ESPECIALLY with 2020 leglock defence knowledge.
Sorry I thought you meant he might have gotten lucky and beaten Royce. I was just meaning that it was well within his capability to beat Royce, he just didn't. Against today's crew, yeah no chance.
