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Sitting
5 year(s) ago • 1922 views • 48 replies
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I third that notion. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is all about being safe and there are times when putting yourself on the ground is smart.
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
However, I don't see the current rule set of IBJJF representing the art in it's best form, instead it's creating an art by itself.
There's more than one ruleset. If you don't like the IBJJF, just compete somewhere else. NAGA or Cannot Jiujitsu. You mentioned that you think there should be point reductions for guard pulling. I believe the ADCC has that rule. That you can look for what you like is kind of the great thing about BJJ.
And on a side note, Kosen Judo guys pull guard all the time. If I know someone is better than me in a particular area, it's just bad tactics to fight them where they are strong. I don't try to throw someone objectively better at it than I am just like I don't start in single leg x with a leg locker.
You made a comparison to japanese martial arts. There's actually an interesting lesson here from Araki Ryu. There's a kata called effectively "How to beat a master swordsman". It involves serving him sake, then throwing it in his face when he's set his sword down and beating him senseless. The lesson, if you want to beat a master swordsman, don't let him get you in a sword fight. I think that guard pulling could be seen the same way. If you know the guy is better at throwing than you are, don't let him throw you.
And on a side note, Kosen Judo guys pull guard all the time. If I know someone is better than me in a particular area, it's just bad tactics to fight them where they are strong. I don't try to throw someone objectively better at it than I am just like I don't start in single leg x with a leg locker.
You made a comparison to japanese martial arts. There's actually an interesting lesson here from Araki Ryu. There's a kata called effectively "How to beat a master swordsman". It involves serving him sake, then throwing it in his face when he's set his sword down and beating him senseless. The lesson, if you want to beat a master swordsman, don't let him get you in a sword fight. I think that guard pulling could be seen the same way. If you know the guy is better at throwing than you are, don't let him throw you.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Realism.
What does that mean? Being fight efficiency focused? Is having an AR more of a martial art than judo?
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I should have expanded more. Realism. Otherwise it's just a sport and we are playing for points. There are throws in BJJ and there are strikes in BJJ and they should be practice more, I believe. A tactical guard pull in a self-defense situation is of course a good idea. However, I don't see the current rule set of IBJJF representing the art in it's best form, instead it's creating an art by itself. I believe that there should be points deduces for pulling guard. (Also lifting someone up above your shoulders or carrying them out of the combative area should be the equivalent of a takedown, but that is another topic) From what I know BJJ could have gone this route, but Carlos Gracie wanted to make it popular and most people would not have subscribed to getting hit in the face all the time - https://youtu.be/bDAJ9vLImns . Also there is the principle of always trying to do your best which is at the heart of a lot of Japanese arts. Pulling guard from a risk managing point might be better for you, but you did not try your best. I would rather try to throw a wrestler or a judoka, fail miserably and continue from there, knowing I tried my best, rather than pulling guard and 'quitting' the game.
1. I am 100% just playing for sport. Let me know when you can beat me in the sport and then we can talk about whether you can beat me in a "fight". This argument that somehow not having rules is better for you than for me is ridiculous.
2. There are NOT strikes in BJJ. There's a thread just for that topic, go check it out.
3. Every "throw" you will learn in BJJ is Judo. You will probably even be using the Japanese version of the name of the throw.
4. Pay more attention to the IBJJF rules. Side control isn't worth any points, yet it's super hard to get out of and I personally have a ton of submission I like from there. But knee-in-belly is 2 and mount is 4 and those are significantly easier to get out of. AND those positions can be held indefinitely without being called for stalling. Why? When you can answer that questions correctly then we can have a real conversation about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu vs (whatever you do).
2. There are NOT strikes in BJJ. There's a thread just for that topic, go check it out.
3. Every "throw" you will learn in BJJ is Judo. You will probably even be using the Japanese version of the name of the throw.
4. Pay more attention to the IBJJF rules. Side control isn't worth any points, yet it's super hard to get out of and I personally have a ton of submission I like from there. But knee-in-belly is 2 and mount is 4 and those are significantly easier to get out of. AND those positions can be held indefinitely without being called for stalling. Why? When you can answer that questions correctly then we can have a real conversation about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu vs (whatever you do).
MMBlue beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
1. I am 100% just playing for sport. Let me know when you can beat me in the sport and then we can talk about whether you can beat me in a 'fight'. This argument that somehow not having rules is better for you than for me is ridiculous. 2. There are NOT strikes in BJJ. There's a thread just for that topic, go check it out. 3. Every 'throw' you will learn in BJJ is Judo. You will probably even be using the Japanese version of the name of the throw. 4. Pay more attention to the IBJJF rules. Side control isn't worth any points, yet it's super hard to get out of and I personally have a ton of submission I like from there. But knee-in-belly is 2 and mount is 4 and those are significantly easier to get out of. AND those positions can be held indefinitely without being called for stalling. Why? When you can answer that questions correctly then we can have a real conversation about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu vs (whatever you do).
Regarding side control, spot on.
I love side control (mune gatame) , it’s such a strong position to work from.
Being under a strong scarf hold (kesa gatame) is also not a nice place to be either when it’s applied properly , as well as the array of submissions from there.
I don’t think north-south (kami shiho gatame) gets the credit it deserves either.
I love side control (mune gatame) , it’s such a strong position to work from.
Being under a strong scarf hold (kesa gatame) is also not a nice place to be either when it’s applied properly , as well as the array of submissions from there.
I don’t think north-south (kami shiho gatame) gets the credit it deserves either.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
"Let me know when you can beat me in the sport and then we can talk about whether you can beat me in a "fight".
Really? There is no place on here for this kind of comeback.
Everyone is wrong unless you agree or can prove it to Joemoplata is all I see when I read these kinds comments.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and free to express it without having to constantly justify themselves. This kind of atmosphere is not healthy for the forums.
There has to be a better way to discuss it without the constant pissing contest.
If you train for self defense, great. If you train for sport, great. No one should have to justify why they train.
At the same time no one should be criticizing the sport or the self defense sides as if theirs is the best. To each their own. Leave it at that.
So annoying
Everyone is wrong unless you agree or can prove it to Joemoplata is all I see when I read these kinds comments.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and free to express it without having to constantly justify themselves. This kind of atmosphere is not healthy for the forums.
There has to be a better way to discuss it without the constant pissing contest.
If you train for self defense, great. If you train for sport, great. No one should have to justify why they train.
At the same time no one should be criticizing the sport or the self defense sides as if theirs is the best. To each their own. Leave it at that.
So annoying
Edited 5 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I apologize if I have offended anyone especially Joemoplata, but I'm not on here for the drama and constant challenging to a debate.
We get enough of that on other platforms.
Dave
We get enough of that on other platforms.
Dave
Edited 5 year(s) ago
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I'm not offended Dave. Seems you are, though, and I apologize to you if you took offense to that.
However.
The reason BJJ and GJJ took the world by storm is because we all saw Royce Grace go out and (pull guard a lot) win using grappling techniques that seemed like magic. And he proved it time, and time, and time again. Then you check the back story and you realize that these guys were always willing to prove what they were saying. The Gracies in Action series of videos were controversial in what they were saying because it was challenging a notion of what we currently believed to be true. But they backed it up by taking on challengers. One of those videos including a fight where the GJJ guy had ount and his opponent tried to bite him so he bit back. And Rorion can be heard saying something to the effect of "the mounted person is in the better position to bite but wouldn't have done so if the other person hadn't bitten him".
Position matters. The point system in BJJ is based on this notion. Pulling guard might get a sweep to mount. And if you can't get out of my mount from a BJJ perspective, how do you think it's going to look if I decide to start throwing punches?
I'm essentially saying what Rorion was saying back then. If you can't beat me with rules, how does not having rules help you more than it helps me? Are you willing to prove it?
However.
The reason BJJ and GJJ took the world by storm is because we all saw Royce Grace go out and (pull guard a lot) win using grappling techniques that seemed like magic. And he proved it time, and time, and time again. Then you check the back story and you realize that these guys were always willing to prove what they were saying. The Gracies in Action series of videos were controversial in what they were saying because it was challenging a notion of what we currently believed to be true. But they backed it up by taking on challengers. One of those videos including a fight where the GJJ guy had ount and his opponent tried to bite him so he bit back. And Rorion can be heard saying something to the effect of "the mounted person is in the better position to bite but wouldn't have done so if the other person hadn't bitten him".
Position matters. The point system in BJJ is based on this notion. Pulling guard might get a sweep to mount. And if you can't get out of my mount from a BJJ perspective, how do you think it's going to look if I decide to start throwing punches?
I'm essentially saying what Rorion was saying back then. If you can't beat me with rules, how does not having rules help you more than it helps me? Are you willing to prove it?
Edited 5 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I'm not offended Dave. Seems you are, though, and I apologize to you if you took offense to that. However. The reason BJJ and GJJ took the world by storm is because we all saw Royce Grace go out and (pull guard a lot) win using grappling techniques that seemed like magic. And he proved it time, and time, and time again. Then you check the back story and you realize that these guys were always willing to prove what they were saying. The Gracies in Action series of videos were controversial in what they were saying because it was challenging a notion of what we currently believed to be true. But they backed it up by taking on challengers. One of those videos including a fight where the GJJ guy had ount and his opponent tried to bite him so he bit back. And Rorion can be heard saying something to the effect of 'the mounted person is in the better position to bite but wouldn't have done so if the other person hadn't bitten him'. Position matters. The point system in BJJ is based on this notion. Pulling guard might get a sweep to mount. And if you can't get out of my mount from a BJJ perspective, how do you think it's going to look if I decide to start throwing punches? I'm essentially saying what Rorion was saying back then. If you can't beat me with rules, how does not having rules help you more than it helps me? Are you willing to prove it?
I do understand the point you are making as I understand the position of those that do not agree with you. Especially those of a lower rank who probably don't see the whole picture from "your" perspective. The whole discussion of sport vs self defense will never end.
The Gracie's are the biggest proponents of the self defense argument now.
Rorion himself harps on it ad nauseam. (believe me I've heard personally) It is annoying from both sides to be honest.
It just keeps going round and round with no end in sight. I'll just keep on training and not worrying about it as it has no effect on my training.
From what I have been reading on and off on the forums is starting to remind me of Facebook.
This site should be better than that.
The Gracie's are the biggest proponents of the self defense argument now.
Rorion himself harps on it ad nauseam. (believe me I've heard personally) It is annoying from both sides to be honest.
It just keeps going round and round with no end in sight. I'll just keep on training and not worrying about it as it has no effect on my training.
From what I have been reading on and off on the forums is starting to remind me of Facebook.
This site should be better than that.
BNPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I don't pull guard. I just happen to consistently fail, pretty much all the time, at tomoe nage.
Lol! I love tomoe nage... I have been working on it a ton. One of the most beautiful throws and incredibly satisfying, although I'm quite bad at it... I have better luck with sumi gaeshi.
On the topic of pulling guard, I personally don't have an issue with it. I know that jiu jitsu is a lot different than other martial arts where guard figures so prominently. I have spent an inordinate amount of time thinking about ways to change the rules of competition to incentivize things away from guard pulling. Despite my best efforts, every idea I came up with either made things more complicated or would lead to another loophole to be exploited.
I said all that to say that I think it might be better to include force out points in a manner similar to freestyle & greco, while I don't think it "technically" addresses the issue of guard pulling, I think it would cause people to be more active and reduce passivity/stalling/backing up to get a "free reset". I understand this wouldn't address the aforementioned WNO (or similar) "sub only" shows, although I think those are more for marketing/spectacle than competition with things like IBJJF/ADCC/AJP, or other tournament organizers.
On the topic of pulling guard, I personally don't have an issue with it. I know that jiu jitsu is a lot different than other martial arts where guard figures so prominently. I have spent an inordinate amount of time thinking about ways to change the rules of competition to incentivize things away from guard pulling. Despite my best efforts, every idea I came up with either made things more complicated or would lead to another loophole to be exploited.
I said all that to say that I think it might be better to include force out points in a manner similar to freestyle & greco, while I don't think it "technically" addresses the issue of guard pulling, I think it would cause people to be more active and reduce passivity/stalling/backing up to get a "free reset". I understand this wouldn't address the aforementioned WNO (or similar) "sub only" shows, although I think those are more for marketing/spectacle than competition with things like IBJJF/ADCC/AJP, or other tournament organizers.
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I do understand the point you are making as I understand the position of those that do not agree with you. Especially those of a lower rank who probably don't see the whole picture from 'your' perspective. The whole discussion of sport vs self defense will never end. The Gracie's are the biggest proponents of the self defense argument now. Rorion himself harps on it ad nauseam. (believe me I've heard personally) It is annoying from both sides to be honest. It just keeps going round and round with no end in sight. I'll just keep on training and not worrying about it as it has no effect on my training. From what I have been reading on and off on the forums is starting to remind me of Facebook. This site should be better than that.
I agree with you 100% on everything you're saying. The "new" approach that there is "Street JiuJitsu vs Sport JiuJitsu" is ridiculous. Here's my opinion on that, to be honest:
When Royce lost to Walid I was devastated. But I sure did attend a seminar he did at our HQs because that made me realize that maybe things had a bit more of a marketing edge to it than I had realized. And I just wanted to learn BJJ and not really care who was teaching it, or what their feelings were about the differences. I've met and trained with both sides of the family (lucky for us the Yamasakis are seen as neutral parties and are welcome by both) and respect both.
And my opinion on sub-only tournaments: They are less oriented for fighting. Way, way less. Notice no one has tried to answer the question I posed about why the points are the way they are? Interesting that no one has had any thoughts.
When Royce lost to Walid I was devastated. But I sure did attend a seminar he did at our HQs because that made me realize that maybe things had a bit more of a marketing edge to it than I had realized. And I just wanted to learn BJJ and not really care who was teaching it, or what their feelings were about the differences. I've met and trained with both sides of the family (lucky for us the Yamasakis are seen as neutral parties and are welcome by both) and respect both.
And my opinion on sub-only tournaments: They are less oriented for fighting. Way, way less. Notice no one has tried to answer the question I posed about why the points are the way they are? Interesting that no one has had any thoughts.
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Lol! I love tomoe nage... I have been working on it a ton.
Try Sumi Gaeshi, it's more practical for BJJ in my opinion.
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
And David, one other thing I just remembered.
Years back a guy from a Relson Gracie affiliate interviewed my training partner Dave Jacobs. The interviewee mentions in that interview that at some point in the early 2000s they decided to go try a grappling tournament (probably Grapplers Quest, can't remember though) and they thought that being a "Gracie" gym they would wipe the floor with everyone. They were shocked and not a little upset when they performed badly, specifically that all their higher belts lost to gyms like Yamasaki Academy. He specifically points out that they thought because they were training more self-defense oriented they would have the edge over more sport oriented gyms.
The results, according to him, changed the entire way they were training because they realized that not training "athletically" was holding them back. So they started training differently and starting doing better in tournaments.
I always thought that was a very honest and humble thing to say and it always stuck with me. I am not going to say who this person was, but I am pretty sure that interview is floating around out there somewhere.
Years back a guy from a Relson Gracie affiliate interviewed my training partner Dave Jacobs. The interviewee mentions in that interview that at some point in the early 2000s they decided to go try a grappling tournament (probably Grapplers Quest, can't remember though) and they thought that being a "Gracie" gym they would wipe the floor with everyone. They were shocked and not a little upset when they performed badly, specifically that all their higher belts lost to gyms like Yamasaki Academy. He specifically points out that they thought because they were training more self-defense oriented they would have the edge over more sport oriented gyms.
The results, according to him, changed the entire way they were training because they realized that not training "athletically" was holding them back. So they started training differently and starting doing better in tournaments.
I always thought that was a very honest and humble thing to say and it always stuck with me. I am not going to say who this person was, but I am pretty sure that interview is floating around out there somewhere.
MMBlue beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I agree with you 100% on everything you're saying. The 'new' approach that there is 'Street JiuJitsu vs Sport JiuJitsu' is ridiculous. Here's my opinion on that, to be honest: When Royce lost to Walid I was devastated. But I sure did attend a seminar he did at our HQs because that made me realize that maybe things had a bit more of a marketing edge to it than I had realized. And I just wanted to learn BJJ and not really care who was teaching it, or what their feelings were about the differences. I've met and trained with both sides of the family (lucky for us the Yamasakis are seen as neutral parties and are welcome by both) and respect both. And my opinion on sub-only tournaments: They are less oriented for fighting. Way, way less. Notice no one has tried to answer the question I posed about why the points are the way they are? Interesting that no one has had any thoughts.
From what I understand the point system is based on the resulting vulnerability of said position.
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
From what I understand the point system is based on the resulting vulnerability of said position.
Winner winner, steak dinner (chicken's boring)!
You are safer in the bottom of side control from strikes than you are from knee in the belly and, clearly, than you are from mount.
I always explain it like this:
There are 3 types of positions in BJJ: Neutral, good and bad. You can score from neutral, you can score ONCE from good, but you CANNOT score from bad.
There are two types of ways to score: Actions and Positions
Actions include Takedown/Throw (2), Sweep (2), and Guard Pass (3)
Positions include Knee-in-Bell (2), Mount (4), Back Mount (4), Back Mount w/hooks (4)
So once the guard has been passed, you cannot score from bottom without returning to a neutral position. So if your guard gets passed you decrease your chances dramatically of winning. But if you are on top, you need to pass because you can easily win once you do.
Same as in MMA. Same as in a street fight.
You are safer in the bottom of side control from strikes than you are from knee in the belly and, clearly, than you are from mount.
I always explain it like this:
There are 3 types of positions in BJJ: Neutral, good and bad. You can score from neutral, you can score ONCE from good, but you CANNOT score from bad.
There are two types of ways to score: Actions and Positions
Actions include Takedown/Throw (2), Sweep (2), and Guard Pass (3)
Positions include Knee-in-Bell (2), Mount (4), Back Mount (4), Back Mount w/hooks (4)
So once the guard has been passed, you cannot score from bottom without returning to a neutral position. So if your guard gets passed you decrease your chances dramatically of winning. But if you are on top, you need to pass because you can easily win once you do.
Same as in MMA. Same as in a street fight.
IBBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Every time you pull guard you kill a kitten. So if you are okay with killing kittens and having kitten blood on your soul...
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Every time you pull guard you kill a kitten. So if you are okay with killing kittens and having kitten blood on your soul...
So much kitten blood on my conscience....
