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Judo and Sambo Throws for BJJ
3 year(s) ago • 4193 views • 42 replies
RambatOP
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Since it's always a bit boring just to theorize, here's a short sequence from our randori. :-)
I'm playing a little with one of my young, successful competitors, who not only competes in judo (Blackbelt) and BJJ (Purple Belt), but also in submission wrestling.
I catch him with a kata-guruma performed as a yoko-otoshi.
https://youtu.be/DNYo5HRRGJQ
I'm playing a little with one of my young, successful competitors, who not only competes in judo (Blackbelt) and BJJ (Purple Belt), but also in submission wrestling.
I catch him with a kata-guruma performed as a yoko-otoshi.
https://youtu.be/DNYo5HRRGJQ
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I'm playing a little with one of my young, successful competitors, who not only competes in judo (Blackbelt) and BJJ (Purple Belt), but also in submission wrestling. I catch him with a kata-guruma performed as a yoko-otoshi.
Very nice! In my own cross-training, I find that sacrifice throws work really well for BJJ because of the bent-over posture that most people tend to take. For example, I use sumi-gaeshi a lot in BJJ, but almost never in Judo. I particularly like how your video illustrates (1) the importance of dominating the grip fight to set up the throw, and (2) the usefulness of kami shiho gatame (North-South) for defeating guard recovery attempts.
RambatOP
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Very nice! In my own cross-training, I find that sacrifice throws work really well for BJJ because of the bent-over posture that most people tend to take. For example, I use sumi-gaeshi a lot in BJJ, but almost never in Judo. I particularly like how your video illustrates (1) the importance of dominating the grip fight to set up the throw, and (2) the usefulness of kami shiho gatame (North-South) for defeating guard recovery attempts.
I use sacrifice throws in both BJJ and Judo. I think they're the least effort throws.
https://youtu.be/qajDrscqv_4
https://youtu.be/qajDrscqv_4

Edited 3 year(s) ago
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Hi Mark, nice work! May I comment on your throwing video? At 2:35 you show a kind of twist shot that I can't quite classify. Personally, I would have feared that the opponent would lock and therefore break his knee with this execution. From my point of view it is not Koshi-Guruma, it is not Tai-Otoshi. So how would you call this technique? I'm not sure - apart from the risk of injury to the knee of the thrown person - that you can really throw a bent standing opponent (BJJ fighter) with this throwing execution or even bring him down ... At 4:20 you show a kind of hip throw (I would now call it a Kubi-Nage). I notice that to throw your opponent, you deep squat, then straighten your legs to lift them up and throw them over your hips. I know hip throws, where the thrower stands on both feet, are often taught that way. However, I always wonder how I could throw someone who is 20-30kg heavier than myself with this kind of 'digging'... I don't mean it badly, I'm just curious. No offense. :-)
Your comment about the throw at 2:35 is bang on. I have a ruptured ACL to prove it.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Your comment about the throw at 2:35 is bang on. I have a ruptured ACL to prove it.
Sorry to hear that! Was it a “Neil-Adams-style” tai otoshi that did it (where the blocking leg is straight instead of having a raised heel and bent knee)? I have seen a couple of knees sacrificed over the years to a straight-legged tai otoshi that blocked the knee joint rather than the shin. I also saw one guy who injured his own knee while throwing because his opponent fell onto his straight blocking leg while trying to avoid the tai-otoshi.
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
It's not about the blocking leg, it's the forced turning motion of person being thrown. In my case my foot was stuck on the mat and my partner forced a turn over their leg, rupturing my acl. In a tai-otoshi, you throw your opponent over your leg, you do not turn him around your leg. Check the video posted earlier at the 2:20 mark to see the turning motion.
TImestamped:
https://youtu.be/-_nADD5pzb8?t=145
Argh, time stamp did not work ... check around 2:20 mark and imagine person being thrown with their weight planted on their right leg.
TImestamped:
https://youtu.be/-_nADD5pzb8?t=145
Argh, time stamp did not work ... check around 2:20 mark and imagine person being thrown with their weight planted on their right leg.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
RambatOP
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
You are misunderstanding the technique. My leg is not deeply bent, and it is NOT tai otoshi. The throw is O Soto Gake.
I am sorry, but afaik this is clearly not "O-Soto-Gake". There is no "kakeru" ( かける ) action.
As far as I can see it's a kind of O-Soto-Otoshi where you then turn your partner inside out. This in turn is very dangerous for the partner's knee.
You actively block your partner's supporting leg and then rotate him around that weight-bearing leg to bring him down. You can do it this way - but it will fail immediately if the partner seriously resist. Or the partner's knee is scrapped.
Why not just use O-Soto-Otoshi in this situation?
Again: I don't mean it badly, but my more than 50 years of experience in judo (also in the former GDR in high level competition judo) tells me (as well as my basic medical and anatomical knowledge) that the technique shown will either not work (in the event of serious resistance) or the knee of the thrown guy will be seriously injured.
I'm not trying to "be right" here, I just don't want misunderstood throwing techniques to lead to (preventable) injuries...
:-)
As far as I can see it's a kind of O-Soto-Otoshi where you then turn your partner inside out. This in turn is very dangerous for the partner's knee.
You actively block your partner's supporting leg and then rotate him around that weight-bearing leg to bring him down. You can do it this way - but it will fail immediately if the partner seriously resist. Or the partner's knee is scrapped.
Why not just use O-Soto-Otoshi in this situation?
Again: I don't mean it badly, but my more than 50 years of experience in judo (also in the former GDR in high level competition judo) tells me (as well as my basic medical and anatomical knowledge) that the technique shown will either not work (in the event of serious resistance) or the knee of the thrown guy will be seriously injured.
I'm not trying to "be right" here, I just don't want misunderstood throwing techniques to lead to (preventable) injuries...
:-)
Edited 3 year(s) ago
RambatOP
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
In tai otoshi you bend the knee deeply and then straighten the leg for a snapping motion.
Hmmm ... no. I am sorry. There is no snapping action of the blocking leg in O-Soto-Otoshi.
If you were to perform a "snapping motion", the opponent's knee would be in danger. I'm aware that this "snapping action" is taught nonetheless - alone, it's nonsense. Dangerous nonsense. Unfortunately.
I've seen a lot of nonsense on judo mats over the past few decades, and unfortunately the unhealthy performance of the O-Soto-Otoshi is one of them.
But I would also like to be able to continue training judo, I would like to throw and be thrown WITHOUT letting my knees break through such misunderstood movements...
So here is a video showing the traditional O-Soto-Otoshi.
It should be noted that with this execution (which is very simple and effective in competition) the opponent's knee is not endangered.
It should also be noted that here you can see very clearly what "otoshi" (otosu: 落とす ) means: letting the OWN center of gravity drop in order to be able to throw the opponent.
https://youtu.be/0PiE9GGZ9OU
If you were to perform a "snapping motion", the opponent's knee would be in danger. I'm aware that this "snapping action" is taught nonetheless - alone, it's nonsense. Dangerous nonsense. Unfortunately.
I've seen a lot of nonsense on judo mats over the past few decades, and unfortunately the unhealthy performance of the O-Soto-Otoshi is one of them.
But I would also like to be able to continue training judo, I would like to throw and be thrown WITHOUT letting my knees break through such misunderstood movements...
So here is a video showing the traditional O-Soto-Otoshi.
It should be noted that with this execution (which is very simple and effective in competition) the opponent's knee is not endangered.
It should also be noted that here you can see very clearly what "otoshi" (otosu: 落とす ) means: letting the OWN center of gravity drop in order to be able to throw the opponent.
https://youtu.be/0PiE9GGZ9OU
Edited 3 year(s) ago
RambatOP
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Sorry to hear that! Was it a “Neil-Adams-style” tai otoshi that did it (where the blocking leg is straight instead of having a raised heel and bent knee)? I have seen a couple of knees sacrificed over the years to a straight-legged tai otoshi that blocked the knee joint rather than the shin. I also saw one guy who injured his own knee while throwing because his opponent fell onto his straight blocking leg while trying to avoid the tai-otoshi.
Hi Jim, I promised to show one of the very old, very traditional (and still extremely effective) variants of Tai-Otoshi as I learned it in the "Hirano Line" of Judo.
First, that said, remember that Tai-Otoshi is a hand throw (Te-Waza). The decisive action therefore comes from the hands of the thrower and not, as is seen almost everywhere today, from the "blocking" leg of the thrower.
Tai-Otoshi, Sumi-Otoshi and Uki-Otoshi (as well as Kuki-Nage) are completely identical throws, only the entry angles vary. You have to digest that first, I know...
If, as a thrower, you turn to Tai-Otoshi and then have contact with your hips on the opponent's pelvis, this is no longer a hand throw, but a hip throw (i.e. Koshi-Guruma).
If, as a thrower, you turn to Tai-Otoshi and then have contact with the "throwing leg" on the opponent's thigh, this is no longer a hand throw, but a foot throw (i.e. Ashi-Guruma).
I know a lot of judoka don't want to hear that...unfortunately.
I will now demonstrate the (traditional) Tai-Otoshi and also show how the idea arose that the thrower's "locking leg" was the decisive action in this throw.
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]6bVRVlR_tA
First, that said, remember that Tai-Otoshi is a hand throw (Te-Waza). The decisive action therefore comes from the hands of the thrower and not, as is seen almost everywhere today, from the "blocking" leg of the thrower.
Tai-Otoshi, Sumi-Otoshi and Uki-Otoshi (as well as Kuki-Nage) are completely identical throws, only the entry angles vary. You have to digest that first, I know...
If, as a thrower, you turn to Tai-Otoshi and then have contact with your hips on the opponent's pelvis, this is no longer a hand throw, but a hip throw (i.e. Koshi-Guruma).
If, as a thrower, you turn to Tai-Otoshi and then have contact with the "throwing leg" on the opponent's thigh, this is no longer a hand throw, but a foot throw (i.e. Ashi-Guruma).
I know a lot of judoka don't want to hear that...unfortunately.
I will now demonstrate the (traditional) Tai-Otoshi and also show how the idea arose that the thrower's "locking leg" was the decisive action in this throw.
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]6bVRVlR_tA
Edited 3 year(s) ago
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Rambat, thanks for posting that video. This is a very interesting variation of tai otoshi. The “te-waza” hand action is very apparent in your throw. The leg action at the end seems minimal compared to the hand motion. It looks like you aren’t blocking the leg as much as you are changing your stance to more effectively apply rotational leverage with your hands. I need to work on this to understand it better.
RambatOP
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Rambat, thanks for posting that video. This is a very interesting variation of tai otoshi. The “te-waza” hand action is very apparent in your throw. The leg action at the end seems minimal compared to the hand motion. It looks like you aren’t blocking the leg as much as you are changing your stance to more effectively apply rotational leverage with your hands. I need to work on this to understand it better.
You are welcome. :-)
Here's the next one.
This video may give you a better idea of how the traditional Tai-Otoshi works as a real "hand throw". By the way, my partner was an Italian competitive judoka who didn't want to be thrown...
First I throw the "usual" old school variant. Then, starting at 0:05, I show how to turn a bit if the opponent puts up too much resistance. It's this tiny twist that has been misinterpreted as "you have to put the blocking leg in front of your opponent and then pull him over".
https://youtu.be/7aWooBA8_LI
Here's the next one.
This video may give you a better idea of how the traditional Tai-Otoshi works as a real "hand throw". By the way, my partner was an Italian competitive judoka who didn't want to be thrown...
First I throw the "usual" old school variant. Then, starting at 0:05, I show how to turn a bit if the opponent puts up too much resistance. It's this tiny twist that has been misinterpreted as "you have to put the blocking leg in front of your opponent and then pull him over".
https://youtu.be/7aWooBA8_LI
Edited 3 year(s) ago
RambatOP
Black beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
The Yoko-Guruma is very applicable, also in BJJ. Here's a possible start. This also works very well against a bent opponent.
https://youtu.be/gqxkqkHabWA
https://youtu.be/gqxkqkHabWA
Black belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Well, I use a very similar setting sliding into Yoko tomoe nage.
This shows the importance of the first impulse following kumi kata.
Thanks for the vid, very nice!
This shows the importance of the first impulse following kumi kata.
Thanks for the vid, very nice!


