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San Diego jury awards paralyzed jiu-jitsu student $46 million after devastating class injury
3 year(s) ago • 6314 views • 106 replies
DRBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
great summary
MGPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
So did Tom agree with Rener by the end of this or not?
APBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
So did Tom agree with Rener by the end of this or not?
Honestly, I am not 100% sure. It wasn't a debate, but rather a public talk to clear up many of the misconceptions around this case. Ultimately it was clear that Tom understood and accepted Rener's position and point of view, but weather or not he actively supports Rener's getting involved in this matter, remains unclear to me.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
SBBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
So having chatted with my coach, former students and friends and then listening to the chat between Rener and Tom from start to finish, a couple of things came to mind: Number 1 - is why didn't the insurance company just pay out in the first place? This is a major question and I think it needs to be addressed. I am very sure there are more factors at play here than I can currently appreciate. 2 - Gym owners who charge for classes, are to run their academies like businesses with proper insurance and legal protection. The student is paying for a service and the instructor should always have the students' safety as their first priority. 3 - A lot of the information available to us (due to us being lazy by just checking Instagram, Reddit and YouTube), only had a small portion of the facts available. This painted a picture way more scary than the one we were just painted in this talk. Rener did not paint his way of teaching Jiu-jitsu as the only right way of doing it. He had no role in deciding the remuneration amount, nor that a black belt may not use a move the a white belt has never been taught - (paraphrasing a little bit as I cannot remember the exact words) 'a black belt may use techniques the white belt has never seen before, as long as the black belt can do so safely. 4 - The defense legal team did not seem do a good job at actually defending the school in question. Many aspects that I thought was obvious in defense of the gym, was seemingly never brought up. 5 - A lot of people don't like Rener and as Mikayla said, Rener really didn't know how he was or is perceived. I, myself, having been very critical of Rener and his association, saw this as another easy target to paint on him. Yet, I cannot fault him in this situation. I don't necessarily agree with absolutely everything he says, but he was reasonable and stood for what he believes in, in a very respectable manner. Both Rener and Tom made some points that are very valid and I think we would do well to reflect on them. 6 - Serious hats off to both Rener and Tom for being able to ask the hard questions openly and answering them honestly.
Thank you for the even handed summary. I, however, will continue to jump to conclusions based on my snap judgements of Rener.
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
In important point is brought up at 26:45 in the Tom DeBlass interview with Rener. Apparently, the waiver at Francisco “Sinistro” Iturralde’s school was so poorly drafted that the Judge ruled it inadmissible as evidence. This effectively made it as if Jack Greener had not signed a waiver at all. In the absence of a waiver, the burden of proof for liability was no longer gross negligence, but rather simple negligence (anything that represents “unreasonable risk”). I would be interested to hear any practicing attorneys on the forums comment on this.
SBBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I'd like see an example of a properly worded waiver.
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I'd like see an example of a properly worded waiver.
Here is the language from my waiver (I have omitted the "fill in the blanks" section at the top for name, address, contact info, etc.). It has been reviewed by a couple of attorneys, but I'm always happy to take constructive feedback if anyone thinks it could be improved. I also have a separate waiver for our College's sports programs that I make them sign. Rule number one of business is CYA (Cover Your A$$)!
Rules and Regulations:
As a student in Westminster College’s Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu program (hereafter WCBJJ), I must faithfully comply with all the rules and safety regulations of WCBJJ. I further understand that all classes are supervised by qualified personnel and that strict observation of safety regulations will largely preclude the possibility of accident and injury. Furthermore, I am physically and mentally fit to participate in a course of martial art instruction and free of any communicable/infectious disease(s). I have not been convicted of a violent crime, I am not currently under investigation or facing criminal prosecution for any violent crime, nor am I facing civil litigation for any acts of violence. I authorize the instructors and officers of WCBJJ to, at their discretion, perform a background check including, but not limited to, a review of my conduct record with the Office of Student Life. (Initial __________ )
Medical Release:
In the event of an emergency, I hereby authorize transportation and licensed personnel to perform any accepted medical procedures on me deemed necessary or advisable, and agree to bear the expense of any such transportation or procedures. (Initial __________ )
Release of Liability:
Martial arts instruction and self-defense courses offered by Westminster College and employees (collectively: WCBJJ) will involve sparring and physical contact with other individuals, which may result in personal injury. All programs offered by WCBJJ—including kickboxing, grappling, and weapons—present a risk of personal injury to the participant. By signing below, I am acknowledging my intent to release, waive, and discharge WCBJJ from any claim or liability for injury to the person or my child/children hereafter occurring at or around WCBJJ from any cause whether or not such injury results from the active or passive negligence of WCBJJ. Accordingly, I for myself and children, and for my and their successors, personal representatives, and assigns, hereby (1) release and waive any claims and causes of action against WCBJJ for personal injury, loss, and/or consequential damage to me or my children resulting from the future passive or active negligence of WCBJJ in the operation, management, or supervision of WCBJJ and (2) agree to indemnify, defend and hold WCBJJ free and harmless from any cost, loss, or liability arising out of any injury to myself or my children in or around WCBJJ proximately resulting from the negligence of WCBJJ.
(Initial __________ ).
Rules and Regulations:
As a student in Westminster College’s Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu program (hereafter WCBJJ), I must faithfully comply with all the rules and safety regulations of WCBJJ. I further understand that all classes are supervised by qualified personnel and that strict observation of safety regulations will largely preclude the possibility of accident and injury. Furthermore, I am physically and mentally fit to participate in a course of martial art instruction and free of any communicable/infectious disease(s). I have not been convicted of a violent crime, I am not currently under investigation or facing criminal prosecution for any violent crime, nor am I facing civil litigation for any acts of violence. I authorize the instructors and officers of WCBJJ to, at their discretion, perform a background check including, but not limited to, a review of my conduct record with the Office of Student Life. (Initial __________ )
Medical Release:
In the event of an emergency, I hereby authorize transportation and licensed personnel to perform any accepted medical procedures on me deemed necessary or advisable, and agree to bear the expense of any such transportation or procedures. (Initial __________ )
Release of Liability:
Martial arts instruction and self-defense courses offered by Westminster College and employees (collectively: WCBJJ) will involve sparring and physical contact with other individuals, which may result in personal injury. All programs offered by WCBJJ—including kickboxing, grappling, and weapons—present a risk of personal injury to the participant. By signing below, I am acknowledging my intent to release, waive, and discharge WCBJJ from any claim or liability for injury to the person or my child/children hereafter occurring at or around WCBJJ from any cause whether or not such injury results from the active or passive negligence of WCBJJ. Accordingly, I for myself and children, and for my and their successors, personal representatives, and assigns, hereby (1) release and waive any claims and causes of action against WCBJJ for personal injury, loss, and/or consequential damage to me or my children resulting from the future passive or active negligence of WCBJJ in the operation, management, or supervision of WCBJJ and (2) agree to indemnify, defend and hold WCBJJ free and harmless from any cost, loss, or liability arising out of any injury to myself or my children in or around WCBJJ proximately resulting from the negligence of WCBJJ.
(Initial __________ ).
Edited 3 year(s) ago
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Jaysus US law system is weird...
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Jaysus US law system is weird...
The "American Dream" is to get rich quick. This can be accomplished in one of three ways: (1) Have a great idea and work really hard for years to earn your fortune, (2) Win the lottery, or (3) Sue the ever-loving $#!+ out of somebody. Since 1 and 2 are unlikely to happen, most of us opt for number 3. ;)
Edited 3 year(s) ago
BTPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
"A lot of people don't like Rener"
I honestly don't know why this is. Yes, he is a businessman. Yes, he is selling his product. I see a lot of spite toward the man, but I do not grasp the source. I know that online forums and social media sites can be toxic and pile on, but I don't understand why so many on this feed dislike Rener or were quick to cast judgments like "Rener has ruined all of Jiu-Jitsu now"... paraphrased of course. Having met the man and his older brother Ryron; they are very approachable, personable, polite, funny, and friendly! Their wives and children are cool too!
This repeatedly happens in politics, the news, and other media outlets. We know why it happens there. It happens because there is a narrative. Well, some of the BJJ, MA, and MMA news sites did not help matters by creating narratives that were part truths or maybe even blatant lies. I have no proof of the latter. I have not read every article from each source.
Disclaimer: I am a Gracie University Student. I have been since 2016. I learn a great deal from the online curriculum. I wish more schools would invest time in these things. When COVID and the government shut everything down, online GU had classes to attend with my training partner.
I get out of online GU what I put into the curriculum. I'm not trying to be the best on the mat or "in these streets, MANE!" I'm a hobbyist. I do it for fun. I like to roll with people who smile back at me. Otherwise, I pass. I don't compete in sport Jiu-jitsu. I supplement my training with schools that are very competitive and I marvel at both aspects of sport and self-defense. I applaud those who take the mat and compete! Bravo!
I go in person to a CTC or to Torrance, CA to get promoted. I send videos in for my instructor stripes. These stripes are not and never were considered a promotion. The belt has always been the only promotion. The stripes are benchmarks. I know there was a time when they awarded Blue Belts from online video submissions. They stopped that almost as quickly as they started. They adjusted, and the online program is for guys like me that have a shortage of BJJ gyms in their area (There are more now).
This repeatedly happens in politics, the news, and other media outlets. We know why it happens there. It happens because there is a narrative. Well, some of the BJJ, MA, and MMA news sites did not help matters by creating narratives that were part truths or maybe even blatant lies. I have no proof of the latter. I have not read every article from each source.
Disclaimer: I am a Gracie University Student. I have been since 2016. I learn a great deal from the online curriculum. I wish more schools would invest time in these things. When COVID and the government shut everything down, online GU had classes to attend with my training partner.
I get out of online GU what I put into the curriculum. I'm not trying to be the best on the mat or "in these streets, MANE!" I'm a hobbyist. I do it for fun. I like to roll with people who smile back at me. Otherwise, I pass. I don't compete in sport Jiu-jitsu. I supplement my training with schools that are very competitive and I marvel at both aspects of sport and self-defense. I applaud those who take the mat and compete! Bravo!
I go in person to a CTC or to Torrance, CA to get promoted. I send videos in for my instructor stripes. These stripes are not and never were considered a promotion. The belt has always been the only promotion. The stripes are benchmarks. I know there was a time when they awarded Blue Belts from online video submissions. They stopped that almost as quickly as they started. They adjusted, and the online program is for guys like me that have a shortage of BJJ gyms in their area (There are more now).
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Disclaimer: I am a Gracie University Student. I have been since 2016. I learn a great deal from the online curriculum. I wish more schools would invest time in these things. When COVID and the government shut everything down, online GU had classes to attend with my training partner. I get out of online GU what I put into the curriculum. I'm not trying to be the best on the mat or 'in these streets, MANE!' I'm a hobbyist. I do it for fun. I like to roll with people who smile back at me. Otherwise, I pass. I don't compete in sport Jiu-jitsu. I supplement my training with schools that are very competitive and I marvel at both aspects of sport and self-defense. I applaud those who take the mat and compete! Bravo! I go in person to a CTC or to Torrance, CA to get promoted.
Looks like your home gym is a Ribeiro gym. Any reason you're not getting promoted through their network?
BTPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Looks like your home gym is a Ribeiro gym. Any reason you're not getting promoted through their network?
I did...to purple. I got blue (not online) through Gracie Academy in Torrance. My small town Gym, which has gone through several affiliations recently, is now Six Blades and they promoted me to purple. The guy who promoted me is James Lee A.K.A Dr. Lee, an IBJJF competitor and I believe he is a world champion in his 70s!
Edit: I also train at a place called Positive Balance Jiu-jitsu in North Florida. U.S.A. if these guys wanted to promote me or saw fit, I'd not turn it down. I have not complaints about either of these great places to train. I am very thankful that they are open and running. However, the GU Blue Belt curriculum is linear, the Purple Belt is principle-based and always available. I would always pursue their knowledge benchmarks, and or supplement what I learned in one of these other places.
Edit: I also train at a place called Positive Balance Jiu-jitsu in North Florida. U.S.A. if these guys wanted to promote me or saw fit, I'd not turn it down. I have not complaints about either of these great places to train. I am very thankful that they are open and running. However, the GU Blue Belt curriculum is linear, the Purple Belt is principle-based and always available. I would always pursue their knowledge benchmarks, and or supplement what I learned in one of these other places.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
PBBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Even if you hate Rener Gracie, i think we can all agree that Rener does a Great job as a salesman for BJJ here.
Magnus Midtbo is a former World elite climber from Norway. He has since transformed himself into a TV personality in Norway and is quite big on YouTube - where he has his own show.
I thought this was a Great episode explaining the basics and pros of BJJ. And i think this will Get many more to check out our beloved sport.
https://youtu.be/-oLm1YNIB-o
Magnus Midtbo is a former World elite climber from Norway. He has since transformed himself into a TV personality in Norway and is quite big on YouTube - where he has his own show.
I thought this was a Great episode explaining the basics and pros of BJJ. And i think this will Get many more to check out our beloved sport.
https://youtu.be/-oLm1YNIB-o
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I go in person to a CTC or to Torrance, CA to get promoted. I send videos in for my instructor stripes. These stripes are not and never were considered a promotion. The belt has always been the only promotion. The stripes are benchmarks.
So are you being promoted separately in some sort of different system at GU? I'm not questioning your legitimacy as a purple belt, btw. Just trying to understand how everything works.
BTPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
So are you being promoted separately in some sort of different system at GU? I'm not questioning your legitimacy as a purple belt, btw. Just trying to understand how everything works.
It's OK! I don't feel challenged or defensive! I love to explain and help get rid of the misconception about GU!
Do you consider stripes a promotion? If so, then yes. GU sees them as benchmarks. I get promoted by belts, not stripes. I get the stripes at certain intervals when I show mastery in several techniques, gi, no gi, and fight-simulated sparring. I can submit videos or I can go to a Certified Training Center.
GU in Torrance awarded my Blue Belt. A black belt tested me. I scheduled an appointment. I rolled with him for about 1.5 hours and I rolled in the master's cycle class after. I was pretty tired after.
after leaving the military and San Diego, CA in 2016 to move to the South Eastern U.S. I had no gym to call home and I lived a good distance from a BJJ gym.
After my wife's passing (my first and best training partner), my son and I moved closer to my parents so that I could continue to work. There are a couple of local BJJ gyms within 25 min drive. I got to one of those and I drive 2 hours to train at a gym in North Florida on the weekend.
This is who awarded me my purple belt after training there for a couple of years: https://ibjjf.com/certifi[...]lack-belts
James Curtis Lee Black Belt -- Six Blades Jiu-Jitsu -- Leesburg Georgia
It just happened on a Saturday, the last year. I did not expect it! I was very humbled and very thankful.
However, If I wanted to go and test for a GU purple belt, brown belt, and eventually black belt, I may. I may so long as I meet the criteria along the way, and successfully test. The Gracie Academy will test me based on their promotion criteria. I only know that the black belt criteria, after achieving a brown, currently leans heavily on self-defense techniques. You can watch a full test on Pedro Sauer's YouTube, I think.
I can stick with my current school. I can go test at GU or a LvL 4 CTC, so long as I meet said criteria. I can do both! Neither school has indicated that they are threatened. I asked!
Does this answer your question or clarify more?
Do you consider stripes a promotion? If so, then yes. GU sees them as benchmarks. I get promoted by belts, not stripes. I get the stripes at certain intervals when I show mastery in several techniques, gi, no gi, and fight-simulated sparring. I can submit videos or I can go to a Certified Training Center.
GU in Torrance awarded my Blue Belt. A black belt tested me. I scheduled an appointment. I rolled with him for about 1.5 hours and I rolled in the master's cycle class after. I was pretty tired after.
after leaving the military and San Diego, CA in 2016 to move to the South Eastern U.S. I had no gym to call home and I lived a good distance from a BJJ gym.
After my wife's passing (my first and best training partner), my son and I moved closer to my parents so that I could continue to work. There are a couple of local BJJ gyms within 25 min drive. I got to one of those and I drive 2 hours to train at a gym in North Florida on the weekend.
This is who awarded me my purple belt after training there for a couple of years: https://ibjjf.com/certifi[...]lack-belts
James Curtis Lee Black Belt -- Six Blades Jiu-Jitsu -- Leesburg Georgia
It just happened on a Saturday, the last year. I did not expect it! I was very humbled and very thankful.
However, If I wanted to go and test for a GU purple belt, brown belt, and eventually black belt, I may. I may so long as I meet the criteria along the way, and successfully test. The Gracie Academy will test me based on their promotion criteria. I only know that the black belt criteria, after achieving a brown, currently leans heavily on self-defense techniques. You can watch a full test on Pedro Sauer's YouTube, I think.
I can stick with my current school. I can go test at GU or a LvL 4 CTC, so long as I meet said criteria. I can do both! Neither school has indicated that they are threatened. I asked!
Does this answer your question or clarify more?
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
In the Grapplearts newsletter, Stephan Kesting posted a link to a video interview where he discusses the lawsuit with an attorney (Alex Kask, who also trains BJJ) and a CA BJJ instructor (Dan Lukeheart): https://www.grapplearts.c[...]u-lawsuit/. It's a long video, but very interesting.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
THBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I am in San Diego and This Could Really Affect Us ALL and in a BAD Way 🚫
The White Belt used to Train Under Baret and I at Our Old Gym, the “Arena” MMA Gym
He had Wrestling 🤼♂️ Background and was probably Blue Belt Level at Most Gyms … so Definitely NOT 🚫 a First Day Total Novice White Belt
That ALL Said … Sinistro did NOT 🚫 Intend to Physically Harm Him in ANY Way … 👎🏽
It was just a Freak Accident and Total 🟰 Bad Luck 🚫 🍀
How ever, He should NEVER 🚫 Attempt That Leo 🥋 🇧🇷 🏆 Tokui Waza (Eddie Embarrassed Eddie Bravo with that at
ADCC 🏆 🌿 2003 ⏳ In Brazil 🇧🇷)
Just Too Dangerous and Risky, Regardless of White Belt/Blue Belt/Purple Belt
💀 ☠️ 🚫 ⚠️ ⛔️ 🚧 🛑 ⬜️ 🟦 🟪 🥋
The White Belt used to Train Under Baret and I at Our Old Gym, the “Arena” MMA Gym
He had Wrestling 🤼♂️ Background and was probably Blue Belt Level at Most Gyms … so Definitely NOT 🚫 a First Day Total Novice White Belt
That ALL Said … Sinistro did NOT 🚫 Intend to Physically Harm Him in ANY Way … 👎🏽
It was just a Freak Accident and Total 🟰 Bad Luck 🚫 🍀
How ever, He should NEVER 🚫 Attempt That Leo 🥋 🇧🇷 🏆 Tokui Waza (Eddie Embarrassed Eddie Bravo with that at
ADCC 🏆 🌿 2003 ⏳ In Brazil 🇧🇷)
Just Too Dangerous and Risky, Regardless of White Belt/Blue Belt/Purple Belt
💀 ☠️ 🚫 ⚠️ ⛔️ 🚧 🛑 ⬜️ 🟦 🟪 🥋
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I am in San Diego and This Could Really Affect Us ALL and in a BAD Way 🚫 The White Belt used to Train Under Baret and I at Our Old Gym, the “Arena” MMA Gym He had Wrestling 🤼♂️ Background and was probably Blue Belt Level at Most Gyms … so Definitely NOT 🚫 a First Day Total Novice White Belt That ALL Said … Sinistro did NOT 🚫 Intend to Physically Harm Him in ANY Way … 👎🏽 It was just a Freak Accident and Total 🟰 Bad Luck 🚫 🍀 How ever, He should NEVER 🚫 Attempt That Leo 🥋 🇧🇷 🏆 Tokui Waza (Eddie Embarrassed Eddie Bravo with that at ADCC 🏆 🌿 2003 ⏳ In Brazil 🇧🇷) Just Too Dangerous and Risky, Regardless of White Belt/Blue Belt/Purple Belt 💀 ☠️ 🚫 ⚠️ ⛔️ 🚧 🛑 ⬜️ 🟦 🟪 🥋
There has got to be a CA law against all these emojis though...
