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Leg locks training
3 year(s) ago • 9088 views • 86 replies
MBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Oddly enough sweeps are more dangerous by far than twisting leglocks. Even more interesting is guard retention and passing is more dangerous that getting caught in a sub
the Pub Med page with the article, there were some pretty interesting facts in the paper.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.[...]MC8721390/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.[...]MC8721390/
VBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Oddly enough sweeps are more dangerous by far than twisting leglocks. Even more interesting is guard retention and passing is more dangerous that getting caught in a sub
It would be interesting to see age specific data on the same data collection
MBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
It would be interesting to see age specific data on the same data collection
Go to the article, they do have information on the age data as well.
DBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I skimmed through that study a while back, I don't think they separate gi vs no gi and consequently rule sets. Leg lock related injuries come more from no gi.
DBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Also from paper:
"However, due to the rules of the competitions that Scoggin et al studied, heel hooks, 2 a major cause of injuries in our findings, were not allowed."
And
"Kreiswirth et al12 analyzed the incidence of joint injuries during a World Championship in No-Gi BJJ, a subdiscipline where athletes compete in athletic clothing instead of a gi (a kimono) and, notably, gripping opponents’ clothing is not allowed. Their study showed that more experienced athletes (brown and black belt) had a higher risk of injury than less experienced athletes (blue and purple belt). Due to the different ruleset of this subdiscipline and the fact that the lowest experience level was excluded (white-belt athletes cannot compete in the No-Gi tournament examined in the study), extrapolation of these data to classic BJJ is limited"
"However, due to the rules of the competitions that Scoggin et al studied, heel hooks, 2 a major cause of injuries in our findings, were not allowed."
And
"Kreiswirth et al12 analyzed the incidence of joint injuries during a World Championship in No-Gi BJJ, a subdiscipline where athletes compete in athletic clothing instead of a gi (a kimono) and, notably, gripping opponents’ clothing is not allowed. Their study showed that more experienced athletes (brown and black belt) had a higher risk of injury than less experienced athletes (blue and purple belt). Due to the different ruleset of this subdiscipline and the fact that the lowest experience level was excluded (white-belt athletes cannot compete in the No-Gi tournament examined in the study), extrapolation of these data to classic BJJ is limited"
Edited 3 year(s) ago
MBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Also from paper: 'However, due to the rules of the competitions that Scoggin et al studied, heel hooks, 2 a major cause of injuries in our findings, were not allowed.' And 'Kreiswirth et al12 analyzed the incidence of joint injuries during a World Championship in No-Gi BJJ, a subdiscipline where athletes compete in athletic clothing instead of a gi (a kimono) and, notably, gripping opponents’ clothing is not allowed. Their study showed that more experienced athletes (brown and black belt) had a higher risk of injury than less experienced athletes (blue and purple belt). Due to the different ruleset of this subdiscipline and the fact that the lowest experience level was excluded (white-belt athletes cannot compete in the No-Gi tournament examined in the study), extrapolation of these data to classic BJJ is limited'
Correct, the data set is limited at this point. But it does give us some good numbers and information. Just like all studies there will be more that expand the dataset.
MBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
It would be interesting to see age specific data on the same data collection
Watch out old man
“ From the hierarchical linear regression model, older age was determined to be a significant risk factor (P < .001) for injury over a 3-year time period. ”
“ From the hierarchical linear regression model, older age was determined to be a significant risk factor (P < .001) for injury over a 3-year time period. ”
JJBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Alot of sweep injuries are due to opponents not moving their feet. Allowing their feet to get caught under them like on a hip bump sweep for example the ankles can get caught.
On a tripod sweep against a standing opponent if they resist the wrong way they can heel hook themselves.
Off a dummy sweep like motion I've ripped one guys groin in a tournament just spreading their legs apart. They tapped to that alone.
The one thing all these times I've seen people get injured from sweeps they were all older than 40 if not 50.
On a tripod sweep against a standing opponent if they resist the wrong way they can heel hook themselves.
Off a dummy sweep like motion I've ripped one guys groin in a tournament just spreading their legs apart. They tapped to that alone.
The one thing all these times I've seen people get injured from sweeps they were all older than 40 if not 50.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
VBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Watch out old man “ From the hierarchical linear regression model, older age was determined to be a significant risk factor (P < .001) for injury over a 3-year time period. ”
🖕who you calling old man!
VBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Oddly enough sweeps are more dangerous by far than twisting leglocks. Even more interesting is guard retention and passing is more dangerous that getting caught in a sub
It would be interesting to see age specific data on the same data collection
MHBlue beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Take my white belt knowledge for what it's worth on this, but I have no problem with someone training leg locks. For myself, if I am caught in one, I usually tap early. If I find myself getting one, I usually just let it go because I'm not fully confident in not injuring my training partner.
At the end of the day, I'm 44 years old, love training, and I'm not out to win ADCC gold. I'd rather tap and restart than not be able to train for an extended period of time.
At the end of the day, I'm 44 years old, love training, and I'm not out to win ADCC gold. I'd rather tap and restart than not be able to train for an extended period of time.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Take my white belt knowledge for what it's worth on this, but I have no problem with someone training leg locks. For myself, if I am caught in one, I usually tap early. If I find myself getting one, I usually just let it go because I'm not fully confident in not injuring my training partner. At the end of the day, I'm 44 years old, love training, and I'm not out to win ADCC gold. I'd rather tap and restart than not be able to train for an extended period of time.
Sounds more like Black belt wisdom
SDBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I am just curious how the other member here think. Do you believe leglocks are inherently more dangerous or is it poor training protocols and lack of knowledge that leads to the negative view of leg locks?
Yes rolling hard with leglocks or simply go to tournaments with kneebars, leglocks may really endomage your knees. I have injuries to one of my knee which are quite serious (2 surgeries). I still want to be able to walk after 50 and normally!! . That's what is on my mind at 47...I don't want to risk it anymore.
but being black belt right now, I have to admit that poor trainings protocol is definitely part of the issue.
We were taught leglocks around purple belts which is a bit too late and it's a specific part which requires a lot of trainings and perfectly executed trainings protocols.
moreover, rolling with someone who respect that protocol together with you help you tremendously to progress IMO.
but being black belt right now, I have to admit that poor trainings protocol is definitely part of the issue.
We were taught leglocks around purple belts which is a bit too late and it's a specific part which requires a lot of trainings and perfectly executed trainings protocols.
moreover, rolling with someone who respect that protocol together with you help you tremendously to progress IMO.
MBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I have trained primarily Heel Hooks for the last 9 years. I have never been injured by a leg lock and have never injured anyone while training them. Competition is a different story as I have popped a couple of feet, but nothing that would prevent someone from not being able to train the next day. As with any technique in Jiu Jitsu there are risks. I have seen more accidents happen with takedowns that have resulted in concussions, broken/separated ribs, arm injuries (from people posting on their hands instead of break falling properly), and even leg injuries that stem from falling body weight. In training realize when your caught and tap - lose the ego, if your training partner is caught with something and you know it and they still won't tap, let it go and transition off to something else - you know when you have something. Leg Locks (Heel Hooks Specifically) are one of the most versatile and effective submissions in all of Jiu Jitsu, the controls that one needs to acquire the breaking mechanic can occur from advantageous, neutral, and disadvantageous top and bottom positions. No guard passing is needed to acquire the various leg control positions unlike with upper body submissions. When rolling No-Gi especially at the higher levels, your defensive stratagem cannot merely lead you back to a neutral position, your defense needs to lead you directly back into a counter attack as to swing tempo immediately back into favor. Finding leg entries to counter attack into are more prevalent than finding upper body attacks to counter into. Leg Locks are safe, just educate yourself is all on them.
MGBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I don't know a lot of people in Jiu Jitsu who had elbow surgery. Actually none. Knees on the other hand...
You know of one now. My arms won't straighten any longer due to wear and tear on the elbows. In my twenties, my right arm got caught in a standing arm bar where the only thing I could tap was the air, and the noise in the gym was so loud, my opponent couldn't hear me yell "TAP!". That's why I hate rolling with loud music going.
MGBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I am just curious how the other member here think. Do you believe leglocks are inherently more dangerous or is it poor training protocols and lack of knowledge that leads to the negative view of leg locks?
I don't think straight leg or ankle locks are particularly dangerous if taught properly and used in a controlled manner. I think it's good for beginners to be exposed to them early so they can be taught how to properly defend, and what elements can cause them to become dangerous. I also think that if someone learns toe holds and straight ankle locks early on, then they are less likely to rely on heel hooks.
MGBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Older people normally prefer GI. But not always.
I don't believe the evidence supports this. We have a great many 40+ year old practitioners at our school, and by far the majority prefer to roll no gi. Similarly in open mats, I see the proportions of gi vs no gi to be pretty similar across all age groups.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
You know of one now. My arms won't straighten any longer due to wear and tear on the elbows. In my twenties, my right arm got caught in a standing arm bar where the only thing I could tap was the air, and the noise in the gym was so loud, my opponent couldn't hear me yell 'TAP!'. That's why I hate rolling with loud music going.
Oh man, that's something pretty sad to be injured because of bad circumstances.
The good thing about it, is that if you chose to open your academy "JiuJitsu Library" you will have a goddam story to build around ;-)
The good thing about it, is that if you chose to open your academy "JiuJitsu Library" you will have a goddam story to build around ;-)
MGBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Oh man, that's something pretty sad to be injured because of bad circumstances. The good thing about it, is that if you chose to open your academy 'JiuJitsu Library' you will have a goddam story to build around ;-)
Thanks Benoit. I suppose it is a good story, but I'd prefer to be able to bowl or play badminton or volleyball without hyper-extending my elbow (:
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Thanks Benoit. I suppose it is a good story, but I'd prefer to be able to bowl or play badminton or volleyball without hyper-extending my elbow (:
I was joking about it but, that's not funny at all, sorry for you man.
JMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Whatever submission is being applied just tap early and don’t be there next time. It will accelerate your progress and protect your joints. Have a handful of training partners you feel comfortable working late stage defense with. Some people will make fun of you (Ahem… mr. Harriott) but you will avoid a lot of strains.
AKBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
My two cents.
I think leglocal are mostly dangerous by lack of knowledge. Most injuries from leglocks i’ve withnessed are when one or both don’t know what they are doing. Exploding against entaglements and locking mechanics etc. Ripping legs without proper hip control. But i think leg locks are big part of modern jiujitsu and should be taught early on. More knowledge will prevent injuries more than anything else.
My other knee is operated cause of bad knowledge from both parties on reaping legs but i still enjoy leg entaglements as they challenge my thinking and problem solving.
I think leglocal are mostly dangerous by lack of knowledge. Most injuries from leglocks i’ve withnessed are when one or both don’t know what they are doing. Exploding against entaglements and locking mechanics etc. Ripping legs without proper hip control. But i think leg locks are big part of modern jiujitsu and should be taught early on. More knowledge will prevent injuries more than anything else.
My other knee is operated cause of bad knowledge from both parties on reaping legs but i still enjoy leg entaglements as they challenge my thinking and problem solving.
GGBlack belt 1st degreeVerifiedScotland
2 year(s) ago
Having done HeelHooks and Leglocks for over a decade, I still regularly train & teach leglocks - I am firmly in favour of *training* them, albeit in a controlled manner.
I run a weekly Leglock class, and all Leglocks are permitted at all our Open Mats (so long as both partners are willing) but only with the understanding that both partners know to fear and respect the Leglock.
The rule I adhere to, and hammer into all my students is that if you can control & hold the Leglock position for 3 seconds without applying breaking pressure - you've won that exchange.
This helps ensure folk have proper control of the leg and don't feel the need to fecking cripple their training partners.
I would say, a big part of this is that I'm very proactive in terms of keeping lunatics away from my gym, and introducing beginners to Leglocks in a structured manner.
As for competition, injuries are very likely if you do enough matches - especially if the ruleset permits Leglocks; at that point you just have to assess the risks Vs rewards and decide if you are willing to accept the danger.
TL;DR - I think Leglocks are important to learn, but must be taught in a safe and structured manner.
I run a weekly Leglock class, and all Leglocks are permitted at all our Open Mats (so long as both partners are willing) but only with the understanding that both partners know to fear and respect the Leglock.
The rule I adhere to, and hammer into all my students is that if you can control & hold the Leglock position for 3 seconds without applying breaking pressure - you've won that exchange.
This helps ensure folk have proper control of the leg and don't feel the need to fecking cripple their training partners.
I would say, a big part of this is that I'm very proactive in terms of keeping lunatics away from my gym, and introducing beginners to Leglocks in a structured manner.
As for competition, injuries are very likely if you do enough matches - especially if the ruleset permits Leglocks; at that point you just have to assess the risks Vs rewards and decide if you are willing to accept the danger.
TL;DR - I think Leglocks are important to learn, but must be taught in a safe and structured manner.
RBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I personally like leglocks. I don't see them being more dangerous than other submissions. You have to be a good training partner and not crank the lock, and you have to know when to tap and not let pride or ego get in the way.
